What are the top of the line 22 semiautomatic target pistols?
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klw
All of the above are excellent. There is another, S&W Model 41. Maybe for the money the best choice depending on what you are really buying it for. Price, availability make the Model 41 a stand out for this reason. I personally would try to find one in the 80's to 90's time frame. Earlier of course is good, if you can find one, plus price. Pre84-HS are another excellent choice. You have to be careful and know exactly which one to buy. They did have some cracked frames issues, and magazines can be problematic.
Top Of The Line .22 LR Target Pistol
I've got one or more of most of these:
1) Hammerli 208 (world record holder since 1983)
2)Pardini SPE
3) Pardini SP
4) Morini CM 22M
5) Benelli MP95e
6) Benelli MP90S
7) Beretta Model 949
8) Walther GSP
9) Walther/ Hammerli 206
10) Hammerli 207
11) Hammerli 212
12) Hammerli 215
13) Hammerli 280
14) Unique model DES 69
15) Domino IGI S.P. 602
16) Margolin MCM
17) Erma Werke ESP 85A
18) Feinwerkba AW 93
19) High Standard 10X Citation
20) High Standard 10X Victor
21) Colt Match Target 3 Series
22) Smith & Wesson Model 41
23) Smiyh & Wesson Model 46
24) Ruger MK IV Goverment
wayne38
I've got one or more of most of these:
1) Hammerli 208 (world record holder since 1983)
2)Pardini SPE
3) Pardini SP
4) Morini CM 22M
5) Benelli MP95e
6) Benelli MP90S
7) Beretta Model 949
8) Walther GSP
9) Walther/ Hammerli 206
10) Hammerli 207
11) Hammerli 212
12) Hammerli 215
13) Hammerli 280
14) Unique model DES 69
15) Domino IGI S.P. 602
16) Margolin MCM
17) Erma Werke ESP 85A
18) Feinwerkba AW 93
19) High Standard 10X Citation
20) High Standard 10X Victor
21) Colt Match Target 3 Series
22) Smith & Wesson Model 41
23) Smiyh & Wesson Model 46
24) Ruger MK IV Goverment
wayne38
HI Klw
While my collection does not come close to waynes, I do have some issues with the order he has them in.
I agree with the Hammerli 208s as number 1, Never shot one but seen them on the competition line (one of my teammates shoots one).
I agree that the pardini as number 2
FWB AW 093 should be number 3
He forgot the SW K-22 Masterpiece. (beautiful revolver!)
And then there are the numerous free pistols out there too!
regards,
Crankster
While my collection does not come close to waynes, I do have some issues with the order he has them in.
I agree with the Hammerli 208s as number 1, Never shot one but seen them on the competition line (one of my teammates shoots one).
I agree that the pardini as number 2
FWB AW 093 should be number 3
He forgot the SW K-22 Masterpiece. (beautiful revolver!)
And then there are the numerous free pistols out there too!
regards,
Crankster
If it is an Olympic style gun you are after then the most gun for the least money is the Benelli MP90S. It has the ergonomic adjustable grips, a totally adjustable two stage trigger, is very accurate, and has the Olympic look (Magazine well ahead of the trigger). Its price point is at the bottom of this class of guns at about the $1500 level.
The S&W Model 41 is a good current production match grade gun priced slightly below the Benelli. You can Volquartsenize a Ruler MK series gun for less than $1000 and it will shoot better than most shooters. A Hi Std is a great gun when all is well with it. They are magazine sensitive and an abused one (inadequate recoil spring replacement intervals and the use of Hi Vel ammo) may eventually crack the frame. Their price point is between $500 to over $1000 depending on the collectability of the particular model. At a lower price point new is the Hammer Xesses which is an ECNO 208 Hammerli. At this price point you can get a Benelli MP95E which is the ECNO version of the MP90S with a set of standard grips and a much less adjustable trigger. The Wather, Pardinis, and other real Olympic guns seem to start at the $2000 point and go up from there.
There are lots of choices and often it is the pocket book that limits your choices. My limit is the Benelli MP90S bought several years back at about $1200. I am not good enough to need a gun better than that and I will never really need its accuracy nor that of any of the gun listed here. I have several of these precision guns because I want them, not because I need them.
LDBennett
The S&W Model 41 is a good current production match grade gun priced slightly below the Benelli. You can Volquartsenize a Ruler MK series gun for less than $1000 and it will shoot better than most shooters. A Hi Std is a great gun when all is well with it. They are magazine sensitive and an abused one (inadequate recoil spring replacement intervals and the use of Hi Vel ammo) may eventually crack the frame. Their price point is between $500 to over $1000 depending on the collectability of the particular model. At a lower price point new is the Hammer Xesses which is an ECNO 208 Hammerli. At this price point you can get a Benelli MP95E which is the ECNO version of the MP90S with a set of standard grips and a much less adjustable trigger. The Wather, Pardinis, and other real Olympic guns seem to start at the $2000 point and go up from there.
There are lots of choices and often it is the pocket book that limits your choices. My limit is the Benelli MP90S bought several years back at about $1200. I am not good enough to need a gun better than that and I will never really need its accuracy nor that of any of the gun listed here. I have several of these precision guns because I want them, not because I need them.
LDBennett
S&W M41
The last time I got serious about this I bought a new M41. That was quite a disappointment. Jammed constantly. When I contacted Smith about it they basically said that it was built to work with one and only one type of ammunition. The one I owned back in the 70's was not so restricted.
The last time I got serious about this I bought a new M41. That was quite a disappointment. Jammed constantly. When I contacted Smith about it they basically said that it was built to work with one and only one type of ammunition. The one I owned back in the 70's was not so restricted.
Comments About Target Pistols
About myself. I make no claim of ranking of the various models of SEMIAUTOMATIC .22LR Target Pistols because 1) I'm 80 years old, 2) I have had cataract surgery on both eyes 3) I've got both gout and arthritis 4) My comments about the ability of the model pistols are based on what I read and personal observations about abilities of the various shooter/pistol combinations at various "shoot-arounds " at my club. My passion is collecting high end .22 LR target pistols. ALL of my pistols are unmodified as shipped from the factory. I'll try to answer all the questions in order.
CRANKYTHUNDER- I don't disagree with your ranking at all and enjoyed your discussion of the Pardini vs. Feinwerkba some month's ago. Please note that KLW requested "semiautos" only so I did not include any free pistols or revolvers. I agree that the various K-22 Models are excellent revolvers, but in my opinion the old Colts (OMM & OMT) are smoother and more accurate. If you want to go off the deep end get a Korth Modell Sport ($7,000 new and $4,000 used). Roller bearings and all. Smooooth!
LDBennett- You and I have bantered back and forth on these boards for years and have little disagreement except for personal bias and I still like the Benelli MP95e better than the MP90S but I am a simple person who doesn't like to fiddle with adjusting the pistol.
NoSecondBest- Doug would have a hard time convincing Eric Bujing of Austria. In 1983 using a Hammerli Model 208 International in 25 meter rapid fire competition he scored 584/600. It has never been approached much less broken.
KLW- You have to be carefull with those S&W Model 41's. Always buy the older ones from the Performance Center and use CCI std, Vel. ammo, I have 4 of them and love ease of cleaning. Hammerli is out of business and but you can easily get good quality ones from Europe. People really take care of their Hammerli's
IHMSA80X80- You can get good quality used free pistols from Larry's Guns for $900 to $1300.
wayne38
About myself. I make no claim of ranking of the various models of SEMIAUTOMATIC .22LR Target Pistols because 1) I'm 80 years old, 2) I have had cataract surgery on both eyes 3) I've got both gout and arthritis 4) My comments about the ability of the model pistols are based on what I read and personal observations about abilities of the various shooter/pistol combinations at various "shoot-arounds " at my club. My passion is collecting high end .22 LR target pistols. ALL of my pistols are unmodified as shipped from the factory. I'll try to answer all the questions in order.
CRANKYTHUNDER- I don't disagree with your ranking at all and enjoyed your discussion of the Pardini vs. Feinwerkba some month's ago. Please note that KLW requested "semiautos" only so I did not include any free pistols or revolvers. I agree that the various K-22 Models are excellent revolvers, but in my opinion the old Colts (OMM & OMT) are smoother and more accurate. If you want to go off the deep end get a Korth Modell Sport ($7,000 new and $4,000 used). Roller bearings and all. Smooooth!
LDBennett- You and I have bantered back and forth on these boards for years and have little disagreement except for personal bias and I still like the Benelli MP95e better than the MP90S but I am a simple person who doesn't like to fiddle with adjusting the pistol.
NoSecondBest- Doug would have a hard time convincing Eric Bujing of Austria. In 1983 using a Hammerli Model 208 International in 25 meter rapid fire competition he scored 584/600. It has never been approached much less broken.
KLW- You have to be carefull with those S&W Model 41's. Always buy the older ones from the Performance Center and use CCI std, Vel. ammo, I have 4 of them and love ease of cleaning. Hammerli is out of business and but you can easily get good quality ones from Europe. People really take care of their Hammerli's
IHMSA80X80- You can get good quality used free pistols from Larry's Guns for $900 to $1300.
wayne38
Wayne38:
I am not a competitor but a target shooter competing with myself. I buy guns that appeal to me and I have a many. I shoot, I don't collect. Every gun I own cycles through getting a trip to the range, even ones deemed collectable. I shoot because I still can but my health situation is similar to yours. I have up to now controlled AMD (Macular Degeneration of the eyes), gout and arthritis, and am lot younger than you at 76.
.
I indeed have my preferences and experience that guide my responses. I also make gun repair and gun knowledge a hobby which fits into my engineering background. I hope our banter is just on opinion and preference. I have no ill will to anyone. And I am sorry I have such little respect for collectors that effectively remove viable guns for shooting from the market place by their demand with the result of astronomical prices. But I do respect your historical knowledge based on living it and often defer to it over my book learned version.
As for the Benelli's fully adjustable trigger: You adjust it once to fit your desires and never adjust it again. For example, mine came new with too little, in my opinion, second stage pull increase. With a simple adjustment the trigger is sweeter yet. I adjusted the grips to fit my hands (small for my size) and got another level of steadiness from the grips. Several here have bought the MP95E only to buy the grips and the trigger separately to make the gun a MP90S. That is the expensive way to get to the MP90S! I wanted an Olympic style pistol with all the bells and whistles. I have plenty of pistols historically used in American bullseye competition and this one Olympic style pistol. It had to have all the appropriate features to satisfy me.
On another subject, you said Hammerli is dead. Then who is making the Xesses? Is it still made? Is this a new event (business closure)?
LDBennett
I am not a competitor but a target shooter competing with myself. I buy guns that appeal to me and I have a many. I shoot, I don't collect. Every gun I own cycles through getting a trip to the range, even ones deemed collectable. I shoot because I still can but my health situation is similar to yours. I have up to now controlled AMD (Macular Degeneration of the eyes), gout and arthritis, and am lot younger than you at 76.
. I indeed have my preferences and experience that guide my responses. I also make gun repair and gun knowledge a hobby which fits into my engineering background. I hope our banter is just on opinion and preference. I have no ill will to anyone. And I am sorry I have such little respect for collectors that effectively remove viable guns for shooting from the market place by their demand with the result of astronomical prices. But I do respect your historical knowledge based on living it and often defer to it over my book learned version.
As for the Benelli's fully adjustable trigger: You adjust it once to fit your desires and never adjust it again. For example, mine came new with too little, in my opinion, second stage pull increase. With a simple adjustment the trigger is sweeter yet. I adjusted the grips to fit my hands (small for my size) and got another level of steadiness from the grips. Several here have bought the MP95E only to buy the grips and the trigger separately to make the gun a MP90S. That is the expensive way to get to the MP90S! I wanted an Olympic style pistol with all the bells and whistles. I have plenty of pistols historically used in American bullseye competition and this one Olympic style pistol. It had to have all the appropriate features to satisfy me.
On another subject, you said Hammerli is dead. Then who is making the Xesses? Is it still made? Is this a new event (business closure)?
LDBennett
I miss mentioning of the FN Browning Medalist / International 150. it has performed well in ISSF competitions since thirty years and those guns do last forever.
I took care of high round count club owned FN 150s and all they usually needed was an occasional cleaning and tightening of the barrel screw. Their mechanical accuracy and longevity is hard to beat.
I took care of high round count club owned FN 150s and all they usually needed was an occasional cleaning and tightening of the barrel screw. Their mechanical accuracy and longevity is hard to beat.
The Browning Medalist isn’t the best target pistol, but it is the best looking and it probably will last the longest.
If my well used Belgium Challenger is an accurate example of how long they will last you won’t wear one out in one lifetime.
If my well used Belgium Challenger is an accurate example of how long they will last you won’t wear one out in one lifetime.
I never owned a Medalist and most likely never will but have shot them for thousands of rounds. In my old gun club in Germany the undefeated club record of 299/300 was set in the early 1980s by my mentor Jasper von Oertzen. The FN 150 can shoot well and has the mechanical accuracy, despite advantages of guns with better weight distribution, better grips and triggers.
MMM
Well, Brain Zins shoots an AW93 and the best precision pistol shooter ever. Jimmy Dorsey will claim the 208 the best made (former Olympian) as many do. The Pardini's come with an extra firing pin for WHEN your's breaks. And I'd never do business again with Larry Carter. Recently, Larry and Thomas Rink confirmed Rink grips have no warranty when mine broke. So what does "top of the line" mean anyway? Olympic success or over 250K rounds without breaking. I prescribe to the latter-no break. I've never seen a Browning in a bullseye (precision) competition. Maybe they're just too pretty. So, with that definition, I'll take my old (purchased 1984) Ruger MKII, 5.5 bull barrel target pistol. Yup, over 250K rounds fired and still shoots Master level scores (95%+). Put a Clark bushing and trigger in and shoot your lifetime, accurately. And all that money saved you can buy ammo and practice to shoot on a "top of the line" team.
Well, Brain Zins shoots an AW93 and the best precision pistol shooter ever. Jimmy Dorsey will claim the 208 the best made (former Olympian) as many do. The Pardini's come with an extra firing pin for WHEN your's breaks. And I'd never do business again with Larry Carter. Recently, Larry and Thomas Rink confirmed Rink grips have no warranty when mine broke. So what does "top of the line" mean anyway? Olympic success or over 250K rounds without breaking. I prescribe to the latter-no break. I've never seen a Browning in a bullseye (precision) competition. Maybe they're just too pretty. So, with that definition, I'll take my old (purchased 1984) Ruger MKII, 5.5 bull barrel target pistol. Yup, over 250K rounds fired and still shoots Master level scores (95%+). Put a Clark bushing and trigger in and shoot your lifetime, accurately. And all that money saved you can buy ammo and practice to shoot on a "top of the line" team.
Further Comments On Precision Semiautomatic PistolsLDB
LDBennet- Hammerli went out of business in 2006 and I'm not sure of the exact arrangements, but Walther acquired the assets, closed the Lenzburg , Switzerland factory, moved some equipment to the Ulm/Donau Factory of Walther and have limited production of the Hammerli air rifles and air pistols as well as the .22 LR Xesses . There seem to be no plans to bring back other Hammerli guns at this time.
Miamigal-Thanks for the heads-up about Rink Grips. I was considering a set of them for one of S&W Model 41's
wayne38
LDBennet- Hammerli went out of business in 2006 and I'm not sure of the exact arrangements, but Walther acquired the assets, closed the Lenzburg , Switzerland factory, moved some equipment to the Ulm/Donau Factory of Walther and have limited production of the Hammerli air rifles and air pistols as well as the .22 LR Xesses . There seem to be no plans to bring back other Hammerli guns at this time.
Miamigal-Thanks for the heads-up about Rink Grips. I was considering a set of them for one of S&W Model 41's
wayne38
Marvel on a 1911 frame.
Many bullseye competitors have used a MARVEL conversion with success in national competition.
There is some discussion about the Marvel vs the Bob Marvel made guns.
Once you get the magazines sorted out and your frames trigger set up to your liking its a fine pistol to compete with. Easily set up for optics and a bit lighter weight then a Model 41 or High Standard. I'd place my trigger feel between a HS and a M-41 with the HS being better.
Plenty of aftermarket parts for a 1911 if you want different stocks or trigger lengths.
I have a dedicated STI frame which I built up and had electroless nickel plated which should allow the alloy rails to run for my lifetime.
Many bullseye competitors have used a MARVEL conversion with success in national competition.
There is some discussion about the Marvel vs the Bob Marvel made guns.
Once you get the magazines sorted out and your frames trigger set up to your liking its a fine pistol to compete with. Easily set up for optics and a bit lighter weight then a Model 41 or High Standard. I'd place my trigger feel between a HS and a M-41 with the HS being better.
Plenty of aftermarket parts for a 1911 if you want different stocks or trigger lengths.
I have a dedicated STI frame which I built up and had electroless nickel plated which should allow the alloy rails to run for my lifetime.
Browning Medalist
My error in not reading enough posts. My baby was mentioned.
I can't believe so many people failed to mention the finest -or at least 1 of- the best target/shooting pistols going. It was used in Olympic competition for several years.
Mine is a fairly early '63 model. I have no idea how many rounds shot, or owners, prior to me, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Just as tight it came off the line in Belgium. Just a pleasure to shoot even if I can't come close to REAL competition shooting.
VHman:
My error in not reading enough posts. My baby was mentioned.
I can't believe so many people failed to mention the finest -or at least 1 of- the best target/shooting pistols going. It was used in Olympic competition for several years.
Mine is a fairly early '63 model. I have no idea how many rounds shot, or owners, prior to me, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Just as tight it came off the line in Belgium. Just a pleasure to shoot even if I can't come close to REAL competition shooting.
VH
man:
I don't think I know anything more than what was already mentioned, and probably not even as much.
Yet, I had a question from Wayne38's list: Ruger MKIV Government?
Is the MKIV Government significantly better than a MK II Government or MK III Government?
In my [very limited] experience, all Ruger MK-series pistols required replacing bushing/sear/connector/trigger to obtain the 'best' trigger feel and reset. And then replacing the hammer was an option also [I had better 'feel' with Ruger Hammer, Volquartsen sear/connector/trigger and someone else's bushing- SamLam, maybe?].
I am in California. We cannot get any Ruger .22 semi-auto pistols, so I've never held a MK IV.
I just wonder if there is really an improvement in the operation of the MK IV over the II/III- or if it is just the takedown/cleaning ability that has improved.
As to what to add to the list as top of the line- I have got nothing more to add.
Yet, I had a question from Wayne38's list: Ruger MKIV Government?
Is the MKIV Government significantly better than a MK II Government or MK III Government?
In my [very limited] experience, all Ruger MK-series pistols required replacing bushing/sear/connector/trigger to obtain the 'best' trigger feel and reset. And then replacing the hammer was an option also [I had better 'feel' with Ruger Hammer, Volquartsen sear/connector/trigger and someone else's bushing- SamLam, maybe?].
I am in California. We cannot get any Ruger .22 semi-auto pistols, so I've never held a MK IV.
I just wonder if there is really an improvement in the operation of the MK IV over the II/III- or if it is just the takedown/cleaning ability that has improved.
As to what to add to the list as top of the line- I have got nothing more to add.
It is a lot worse than not getting Ruger MK pistols. The laws makes every hand gun go through "safety" testing which forces magazine safeties and Micro-engraving on the firing pin that marks every fired round's primer (an unproven useless technology). Some manufacture refuse to do the expensive testing of every model variation (EVERY minute variation that gets a different part number). Every year the list of "safe" guns you can buy gets shorter until there will not be any on the list....that's the liberal progressives plan!
All guns (ALL!!) have to be go through a 10 day waiting period. And ALL are registered with the state (rifles too). All the common backgrounds apply and all this cost money.
Then there is the new laws that require registration of "assault weapons" and bullet buttons for mag releases no longer allowed. We will next year have to get a license to buy ammo (background check again) and each box will be registered.
Fortunately for me I have all the guns I ever thought I wanted (including a Ruger MK II 678G). I reload for everything but 22 and I have a large stock of that. The stupid liberal legislature has not yet figured out that we can make ammo out of components. I have lots of those too.
I know it won't happen but I will vote for three Californias on the ballot in the fall. I would be in So Cal which is basically the conservative part of CA. It is the coastal cities that are where all the liberals live and that would be a separate state.
LDBennett
All guns (ALL!!) have to be go through a 10 day waiting period. And ALL are registered with the state (rifles too). All the common backgrounds apply and all this cost money.
Then there is the new laws that require registration of "assault weapons" and bullet buttons for mag releases no longer allowed. We will next year have to get a license to buy ammo (background check again) and each box will be registered.
Fortunately for me I have all the guns I ever thought I wanted (including a Ruger MK II 678G). I reload for everything but 22 and I have a large stock of that. The stupid liberal legislature has not yet figured out that we can make ammo out of components. I have lots of those too.
I know it won't happen but I will vote for three Californias on the ballot in the fall. I would be in So Cal which is basically the conservative part of CA. It is the coastal cities that are where all the liberals live and that would be a separate state.
LDBennett
Yes, and there is the Olympic Exemption list as well.
The GP100-22 is on the "safe" list . I bought one last year in CA.
Triggers, almost no matter how bad, can be "fixed or replaced with better ones.
Also we in CA have to read a safety booklet, pass a test, pay money for the test, before we can buy any gun. Mine expired and I have not renewed it as I am not buying anymore guns...four safes full is enough.
LDBennett
The GP100-22 is on the "safe" list . I bought one last year in CA.
Triggers, almost no matter how bad, can be "fixed or replaced with better ones.
Also we in CA have to read a safety booklet, pass a test, pay money for the test, before we can buy any gun. Mine expired and I have not renewed it as I am not buying anymore guns...four safes full is enough.
LDBennett
I have a Mk.III Hunter and a Mk.IV 22/45 Lite so it's not an exact comparison but the trigger on the Mk.III was much nicer. I've kept that one stock but had to install a Volqaurtson trigger kit into the Mk.IV to make it usable.
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