It is freakin' sad that none of the manufacturers has stepped up to the plate and delivered for those who compete.

I am not one who competes. I would certainly try an American made ammo of that level. It would be great to see it come to fruition, but I am not holding my breath.

 

Bubba and their full autos don't care about accuracy and buy infinitely more ammo than the match level 22 shooters do.

I would love for CCI to give Lapua a run for the money, but it won't happen...see Green Tag.

 

They did at one point in time, but profit margins flushed them down the river

 

Way back when too Western Markiii,and later Federal.

 

Federal did in the 1990's and people didn't buy enough of it to be profitable. The situation "might" be different enough now to warrant another try but the example of the past failure problem probably looms in the minds of CEOs.

 

Was that ammo actually made here or labeled Federal by an overseas manufacturer?

 

Well, that's some wishful thinking, and it's repeatedly coming up here... but I still assume this won't happen.

As long as the mass-produced budget standard and bulk ammo is being torn off the shelves, the US manufacturers are busy enough in producing these.

The CEOs just won't take the risk and effort to develop an own match ammo, to challenge the European manufacturers, with their decades-long experience in making top level match ammo in small batches. But even these sometimes have issues in maintaining steady quality, see e. g. Eley, and their failed first generation of Ultra Extreme Long Range ammo.

 

Three of the 22 rimfire ammunition manufactures (Rem., Fed., CCI) here in the U.S. are owned by the European based Czechoslovak Group (CSG) which also owns 100% of Fiocchi ammunition. Fiocchi does produce somewhat higher end Italian 22lr but none of it is making its way into this country, rather CSG has CCI put the Fiocchi name on ammunition produced at CCI in Idaho/U.S.

I'd ask Mr. Spock to calculate the odds of CSG producing any higher end 22lr here in the U.S. Mr. Spock? Mr. Spock I can't hear you?

 

Mr. Spock is busy trying to figure out how best to use his "Live long and prosper" hand position for optimal aiming and firing his rimfire phaser. He'll be back as soon as his hand stops cramping.

 

My opinion= capitalism won the day we live in, therefore it must not be good business, or else it would be already happening here. My day job involves international business, and I can tell you that if producing in USA was more profitable it would already be happening here. As we all know we go into business to make money, not friends.

 

I'm absolutly sure all the companies have done elaborate market analysis and all come to the same conclusion, not worth it. And I'm absolutly sure that the analysis is repeated every few years with the same conclusion....

 

Yup…. And the analysis goes something like this: If we fix the production and increase QC to the point that we make a line of ammo that equals the better euro stuff Can we get the suc… er um shooters to go for the prices we would charge to have the same or more profit margin than we get for the junk ammo?

The question I have is how many lines does federal or CCI run to produce rimfire ammo? GreenTag direct from CCI is in between the price range of Eley Match/Lapua CX & Eley Team/ RWS Rifle match @$32/100. Ramp up the QC on the green tag line and grade it out in two tiers with best stuff called gold tag and the green tag can match up with CX. The stuff that rates at current GreenTag level call it SV plus…

 

Never say never. Facts and circumstances change. Match ammo is produced under super strict quality control. Thats how you get consistency. Each round is as close to being exactly the same as the prior round. That takes labor. Lots of labor.
Well due to changes in Medicaid laws , we are gonna have a lot of labor. Yes it will be unskilled at first. But Americans are quite adept at adopting to new skills and knowledge.

 

Never say never. Facts and circumstances change. Match ammo is produced under super strict quality control. Thats how you get consistency. Each round is as close to being exactly the same as the prior round. That takes labor. Lots of labor.
Well due to changes in Medicaid laws , we are gonna have a lot of labor. Yes it will be unskilled at first. But Americans are quite adept at adopting to new skills and knowledge.

Labor or now AI? How much are People really needed in the process when consistency is a function of machine tolerance, inspection/ measurement and rigid process adherence? Machines, are really good at those things-- they don't get sick or have a bad day....Just a thought.

 

I jumped from center fires a few years back because of the rising costs. Now the rimfire ammo is rising just the same

 

That train left the station years ago, never to return.

 

Anschutz built their famous Match 54 with the Western MKIII in mind to feed it.

 

Will happen around the same time as Lapua starts making bulk ammo to compete with Winchester 333.

 

We hunt a lot in this country. The Europeans not so much. They shoot targets more than we do. The NSSF told me twenty+ years ago that by far, the vast majority of ammo buyers in this country ARE NOT concerned with target shooting as a sport, and don’t participate in organized target shooting. Almost all of the ammo made is for people who shoot a couple of boxes a year. There are millions of them and few dedicated accuracy shooters. Therefore, who do you think the ammo companies are making ammo for? Also, it cost money to hold ammo to strict manufacturing guidelines. Are specs are pretty open (same as USA made cars). It’s all about the Benjamin’s as they say).

 

With the shortage of match grade 22 ammur dependence on foreign manufacturing for 22 match grade ammo Is at a high point.Its time for USA manufacturers to reach out to foreign countries to invest their technology here.Better yet build our own match ammo.

We'll all be looking forward to your new USA made match ammo. When do you expect to have the plant up and running?

 

Please let me know when your company IPOs as I might want to buy stock in it.

 

Just went looking for some Lapua. Found Midas @ $32 a box and some Xact at over $40 a box! This is getting to the point that competition matches need to have a new class for domestic ammo!

 

(...)
This is getting to the point that competition matches need to have a new class for domestic ammo!

That's an interesting approach, but I doubt that the real pros and precision freaks would join in here. And I wonder if those people buying the cheap ammo are really interested in matches.

That would also require rigorous ammo controls by real experts for .22 lr ammo, knowing every box and headstamp. It would have to be defined what exactly "domestic" ammo is... only US-made, or would that also include Canadian, Mexican (Aguila!) or even Brazilian (Magtech / CBC, manufacturing also in Oklahoma soon!) ammo?

The widely popular, but nowadays hard to find Norma TAC-22 would probably be excluded here, as it's made in Germany.

Ammo control should also include a check if the boxes contain the original ammo, too

 

The demand is definitely rising with newer shooting sports around. Imported match ammunition sells out as fast as it arrives. BUT the costs of setting up a new factory versus the fear of a changing market is going to kill interest in investors wanting to build anything here.

 

As an exercise, what would it take?

Isolated facilities, warehouses, hazardous materials permits,
fire suppression systems, nearby emergency response services,
reliable utilities including water/electric/hazardous waste,
brass supplier, powder supplier, lead or alternative bullet material,
packaging materials, printing/labeling materials,
latest in primer chemistry, lubricants and nearby laborers.
Ordnance engineers, technicians, laboratory specialists,
machinists, mechanics, electricians, equipment operators,
facilty maintenance specialists, hvac technicians,
quality control technicians, testing facilities, computer hardware/software,
assembly line machinery, punch, cupping, swaging, primer mixing/metering,
primer application/centripetal curing, bullet seating, crimping,
IT staff, financial/logistic specialists, customer service representatives,
advertising staff....nope, startup cost is more than I can afford.

 

I think that about covers it.

 

Cheaper to handload smallbore centerfire.
That I can do at home without the extreme expense.

223 with 40 grain NTX ballistic tips is an acceptable cost per cartridge.

 

What about a .17 wildcat ?

 

A .22 K-Hornet would be a nice rimfire alternative I think, although I have never tried such. Alabama won't allow centerfires for small game hunting so no making your own precision long ranged hunting cartridges for that. Most kills are at shorter ranges anyway.

 

NoSecondBest said: "It’s all about the Benjamin’s as they say."

CCI certainly should have the capability to produce Match Grade (MG) ammo,,,
Am I being Captain Obvious to say; "They don't because they don't want to as yet."

If one then asks, "Why?", I would cite Aarond's Law #1,,,
Any time you start a sentence with the word; Why?,,,
Stop right there and answer, Money,,,
You'll be correct most of the time.

They probably don't think there's enough money in the US market,,,
Or maybe the company simply isn't financially able to create it at this time.

Are the new tariffs going to affect the price of ammo from across the pond?,,,
If the prices will go up maybe that will incentivize CCI to market some MG ammo.

Here's one thing I am personally certain of,,,
CCI has already done the R&D for a true MG offering,,,
The specs and maybe even prototype test results are on a computer somewhere.

As soon as the showrunners for CCI think there's enough profit in it,,,
They will pull those plans out and create some true MG ammo.

Or not,,,

I don't have a crystal ball,,,
I'm just idly speculating on an interesting topic.

Aarond

PS I've been using their Mini-Mags and Standard Velocity ammo for decades now,,,
I just found out the company name is Cascade Cartridge Inc., out of Idaho.

.

 

And they need a US made match rifle for that ammo to feed, think that will happen? We can no longer look at many US products and declare they are the best technology or quality vs the world.

 

This past weekend I got the chance to handle a very interesting proto-type that a big American company is working on. It is right up there with the form and function of the Vudoos/RImx rifles I have used. It will be interesting to see what comes from it.

 

I'm not sure at what date the production of the RWS/Federal ammunition stopped but it began in 2009.

On pages 54 and 55 of their catalog Federal in 2009 introduced "New" 922A and UM22.

Quote from page 54 of Federals 2009 Catalog: (ULTRAMATCH REBORN.....We partnered with the rimfire experts at RWS)

Quote from page 54 of Federals 2009 Catalog: (GOLD MEDAL GETS NEW MEANING.....Developed in conjunction with renowned rimfire manufacturer RWS).

The dimpled case head ammunition was developed and manufactured 100% by Federal during the 1990's in Anoka Minnesota for the U.S.A. Olympic shooters.

Time 7:08 Dimpled American made match ammunition.

 

Federal examined the Russian Olympic ammunition that was winning so much and copied the dimpled case bases and even the ammunition boxes directly. It was seen as an advantage so why not? I wish that I had saved some of those boxes.

 

If imagining a US made match grade rimfire cartridge,
22 caliber, 35 grain, no lead, square tail, ballistic tip.
Think 17hm2 on steroids.
Without the necked down case splitting.
22short magnum?
Fits existing 22lr barrels?

Bullets already exist, No lead varminting

 

The cost of making match grade ammo in the U.S. forced Federal out of that market when they attempted it back a few decades ago.

Let's face facts U.S. manufactures cannot even keep up with making high profit and low quality "blaster" ammo let alone invest in new machinery and hire an army of inspectors to produce quality ammo.

One U.S. ammo company admitted it is still using outdated 1950's machinery to make ammo and the cost of buying modern new equipment to increase production volume and or make quality ammo would be too expensive.

Ammo Manufacture's also stated they have seen the demand for ammo rise and fall in the past and they may be right because the next big downturn in the economy may result in an ammo surplus, especially considering the outrageous high prices that ammo and components bring these days. Our own club now shoots half the shots in a match because shooters either cannot afford to shoot large amounts of centerfire ammo or the components are not even available to do so.