Interesting

Write up! goes to show what a little ingenuity can do! I must admit I have never heard of a rimfire with that rate of twist! I'm surprised it groups like it does. As forthe FTF problem the J&P spring should take care of that problem, I put one in my special and it went from a small dent to almost crushing the rim! And the lock time improves as well, it seems like my groups improved, if I had a bad shot I can almost tell as it hits the target! anyway you have made a nice rifle out of what was
not so nice! :bthumb: Doug

BTW; Is the stock made out of mahogany? Sure looks like it! DA

 

I'm surprised it groups like it does.

So am I and am still left scratching my head as to why this is so. Over the years I have been experimenting with barrel harmonics in a very rudimentary fashion by cutting down the barrel by an inch (+/- a fraction of an inch, as I prefer to cut at a tighter spot along the bore) at a time and then testing it for accuracy. I guess I got lucky when cutting the barrel down to 20". The one and only time I tested the rifle at 100+ yards it produced a 5-shot group of 1.25" c-t-c at a lasered 111 / 113 yards (depending on which friends laser range finder I used to check the range). This was with SK Standard Plus and a 2-7x scope off a bean bag. Funnily enough, this rifle does not group anywhere as well with SK Magazine or Gold ammo.

Since I have already reached the minimum legal barrel length, I cannot experiment further and it's probably a good thing because if the accuracy then deteriorated I would have the devil of a time getting a new barrel.

 

Pictures lack detail on my iPhone, but I say nice work on the stock. With that rate of twist you should try the Aguila SSS if it is imported over there. Mice shooting!

 

Thank you for sharing your story with us, I have a huge respect for those who fight great odds to enjoy an activity far too many of us take for granted. The quality of the basic rifle makes the Chinese copies of the Brno's we see here look positively wonderful, your inventiveness in re-doing the rifle is to be applauded. I wish you a great future in your shooting, hopefully one day you can get the makings of a better rifle.:bthumb:

 

Rustam,

Great post on the Indian clone of the 452. You certainly have done a great job reworking that rifle and getting it to shoot so well.

I agree with Gerald, it's really wonderful to hear from people who struggle to enjoy the shooting sports in the face of difficult gun control laws and limited access to firearms. We too often take our liberties for granted in the USA.

Thanks for a great post! :bthumb:

 

Doug, I am not sure if IOF would use a relatively more expensive wood like mahogany for its stocks.

Hersh5317, are those the 60 grain Aguilas? If so, I have been looking for them for some years now but without success. I have always been curious how they would perform out of my rifle.

gmd1950 and timberbeast63, whilst we do have the equivalent of the NRA in India it is a rubber-stamp organisation for the Govt. of India and is only interested in promoting ISSF competitions. Earlier this year a group of people formed the National Association for Gun Rights India (NAGRI) and hopefully we will be able to address many of the ills facing existing and aspiring gun owners in India. http://www.gunowners.in/

Please take a moment to check this link - http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10484

Most firearm licence applications are rejected. I on the other hand have the full civilian quota of three firearms. Well I did until I sold off my 12 gauge SxS and .30-06 rifle last week though I will be reapplying again. Ammo is highly restricted, in my case it is 25 rounds at any point of time, subject to a maximum of 100. In some states, ammo quota is in single digits.

Thanks to the ban on firearm imports prices of used firearms is unbelievably high. For example, a used CZ 452 in fair condition fetches U.S.$ 3,350.00 on average. Imported .22lr rounds cost between a $1.00 to $1.50 per round.

I know I have gone off topic but would like to end by reminding the members to keep fighting the anti-gun brigade. My father's generation did not and today my generation is up the proverbial creek.

 

Hersh5317, are those the 60 grain Aguilas? If so, I have been looking for them for some years now but without success. I have always been curious how they would perform out of my rifle.

Those are the ones.

 

Wow! Nice job!

 

You did a really nice job fixing up your gun. You might even say it's a professional job. :bthumb: Don

 

That's high praise indeed, Don! Infact I am taken aback by the kudos from you guys as my only intention was to share this rather strange clone of the rifle that is so popular on here.

Thanks everyone. Your kind words are much appreciated and if there is a boffin around who can explain why that 1 in 8" twist rate appears to be working, I'd be much obliged.

 

As others have said, an excellent job turning your .22 into a decent rifle that is accurate.

if there is a boffin around who can explain why that 1 in 8" twist rate appears to be working, I'd be much obliged.

Not a boffin, but why would it not work ?
Yes the bullet is spinning faster than it needs for stability, but it's a solid lead bullet, it isn't going to fly apart.
My .223 rem has a 1 in 12 twist barrel, I shoot mainly 40 grain bullets, but a friend has a .223 with a 1 in 8 barrel, it shoots the same 40 grain bullets as accurately as mine.
Mine on the other hand won't shoot the 65 and 80 grain bullets his will.

If as you suspect your barrel came of the same mandrel that they make .223 barrels on I would be more worried about the over size bore, rather than the rate of twist.

Neil.

 

Nice Job, Rustam, and welcome to RFC!

The 1 in 8 twist should favor the heavier bullet, hence the 60 gr aguila's.

My Sig 556 has a 1 in 7 twist, and LOVES the normally crummy Wolf 75gr HP 223 rounds, and does not shoot the 55gr of any brand nearly as well.

I suspect your fast twist would take a shine to a heavier bullet weight, but you do not seem to have a great deal of choice!

 

Thanks for the post. I had never seen one of those rifles before. I think that you did a great job fixing it up.:bthumb:

 

Hersh, thanks for the confirmation.

Hornet 6, the reason I assumed it would not work was due to manufacturers rifling their .22lr barrels with either a 1 in 14 or a 1 in 16 twist rate. However, the example you quoted of your friend's rifle makes me look at mine in a very different light. Infact, I am tickled pink that, in theory, it could be more versatile, ammo weight wise, than a regular .22lr. I find it very hard to believe that IOF got something right, regardless of whether it was intentional or not. I will slug and mike the bore and probably do a chamber cast one of these days and post the findings on this thread. I have noticed rifling marks on retrieved bullets, so the bore is obviously not too over size. With IOF, one never knows... Thanks a lot for your reply. I feel a lot better about my rifle after reading about your friends rifle.

Thank you, Granite 3 and M2HB.

 

However, the example you quoted of your friend's rifle makes me look at mine in a very different light. Infact, I am tickled pink that, in theory, it could be more versatile, ammo weight wise, than a regular .22lr.

If it was to cause a problem it would only be with hyper velocity ammo, but to be honest even then it is very unlikely.
My mates fast twist barrel is pushing 40 grain Nosler ballistic tips out at nearly 3850 fps, and they stay in one piece.

Neil.

 

Hi Cow54 and thanks a ton for both your kind offers. The first, as you rightly surmised, would get both of us in a spot of bother and the second is a very distant possibility but thanks all the same. Should you ever find yourself in my part of the world, feel free to come over. More so if you like angling. We have the hardest fighting fresh-water fish in the world in my state. The Mahseer. Wilderness fishing at its best. http://www.wasiindia.com/index.html is the organisation I belong to.

 

Rastam.. Nice job on the rifle and the post.
I'm still waiting for the day when Thailand starts making legitimate guns of any kind.
At the moment we have home-made sigle-shot pistols firing 20 ga. shot shell.
Scary and illegal.

 

Morning, Nick!

It isn't as if Thailand, or for that matter India, cannot turn out a quality product. The big players in the Indian private sector certainly can and have asked the GOI for permission to manufacture arms but without success.

The private sector is only permitted to manufacture shotguns but they are small companies and the products are nothing to write home about.

As in Thailand, there is a fairly large industry in illegaly made arms in India. Infact, if statistics are to be believed, India has the second highest number of privately held arms after the U.S.. What the stats don't say, is that the vast majority of them are illegaly made and owned. In many cases it is farmers who buy these arms (usually muzzle loaders) for crop protection and I cannot blame them for going down the illegal route considering the red-tapism and corruption one comes up against.

What are the gun laws like in Thailand?

 

The gun law here is not so bad... we can get license to buy most sporting guns. Full-autos are illegal, as well as semi-auto centerfire rifles. Pistol, rimfires, shotguns are OK.

The problem is, we have a quota system limiting number of imports per gun shop - 50 long arms and 30 pistols per year. This makes guns very expensive. A 452, for example, is about US $ 1,000 a piece at the moment. The pistols are even worse...like a Ruger Mk. III for $1,800.

 

Hi Neil, I haven't tried a hyper velocity round to date, though Stingers are available from time. The fastest round I have shot from this rifle is an old batch of Winchester Super Speeds but only upto 25 yards and the accuracy was average if I recall. Come to think of it, that is the only high velocity round I have tried with this rifle, so it could just be a case of this particular round or batch of Win. SS not suiting my rifle.

 

Hi Nick, glad to hear that you chaps don't have it as bad as us. Whilst the prices at your end are certainly high, by Indian standards you guys are still getting a good deal. More so, as you can atleast get new firearms.
Thanks.
Rustam

 

Rifling twist rate is 1 in 200mm (approx. 1 in 8"), 6 grooves. Done on a Steyr Hammer Forging machine.


Funny I saw a new example of the AUG tonight, it had a 1 in 8 twist....the older ones had a 1 in 9.

 

The Steyr AUGs in service in Aussie & NZ , both the Austrian ones and the Aussie/lithgow made copies use a 1-7 twist , so that the long tracer version of the std ball SS109 , which is has a very long oal , stablisies .

The ball SS109 , 62gr , 5.56x45mm ammo , only requires a twist of 1-8 .

We had no trouble with the 1-7 twist barrels , firing either SS109 or M193 ammo .

Later Chris

 

Hey Rustam welcome and thanks for the post. Would you be so kind as to show a bit more detail in the stock work at the forend and pistol grip, also a "Primer" on how you did it.

Thanks in advance.

 

Nice job- you mentioned the mags won't interchange how about the other parts The bolt parts look very close to CZ/BRNO parts.

 

I spoke with an gunsmith at a local gun store about twist rates.
His explaination was this " the lighter the bullet weight the longer
the twist 40gr (1-18) the heaver the weight 60-75 (1-9). :comeandge

 

Hi Small! It's dark now but I will take some pics tomorrow morning and post them here. This rifle has some very rough and ready stippling - no v-groove borders and such as I lack chequering tools. Once I have sanded down the stock, I mark out the pattern with a pencil and then using the tip of the reamer on my Victorinox Swiss Tool I start tapping away. The 'taps'/indentations must overlap/intersect otherwise it does not look as nice. I prefer using the reamer on the bigger of the two multi-tools as it is heavier, in-line and the point is slightly rounded rather than a needle point. Put on some foot-tapping music and the entire process can be quite enjoyable. Once the stippling is done, carry on doing what you would normally do - stain, oil finish, conditioner / 0000 wire-wool and wax.

Thanks, 2mene22s. I received my JnP striker springs this afternoon and installed one of them after stripping, cleaning and relubing the bolt parts. (I am experimenting with Penn's reel grease instead of moly, this time. ) Checked that everything is working properly and safely. Hopefully, I will be able to test it tomorrow. If it works then my next order is going to be for an extractor, holder and c-clip. Not that I need it but....
Here's a pic of the JnP spring (top) and the original spring. The original has thicker wire and is shorter but I suppose a little 'set' is to be expected after six years. Surprisingly, the JnP has less pre-load than the original spring. Atleast, that's how it felt.

Thanks for the post scroamer65. This is precisely why I have been looking for those 60 grain Aguilas for the past few years.

 

In regards to the springs, that spring in the picture is likely not an original CZ spring. Although CZ has commonly used thicker wire in the 18-19 gauge range than J&P's springs, I've never come across a cz striker spring with 32 coils on it...they have been around 26-27 coils for the last 15 years or so.

Also, these coil springs do not take a "set" with use in the gun or over time. Many people get the terms "set" and "creep" mixed up, mostly due to aftermarket spring retailers trying to show, or hype up a specific problem with springs that does not exist any more for many decades.

Large scale manufactured springs like this do not take a "set" as by strict manufacturing definition. They are made and then shipped in "pre-set" condition unless deliberately ordered otherwise (rarely done). The manufacturer cycles them in a fixture to full coil closure several times and thats it, they will not take a set afterwards while operating in their compression range. Even if a non pre-set spring gets mistakenly used, the very first time it is cycled with the bolt, it might take a small set but it will no longer take a set over time or use unless it is compressed beyond what it initially was.

There is another term which describes the very small (less than ~1-2%) long term shrinkage on some coil spring lengths and its referred to as "creep". It has nothing to do with temporarily exceeding Youngs Modulus of Elasticity or yeild point in the material, it happens mostly at elevated temperatures while the spring is under constant load.

Sring Set: permanent distortion which occurs when a spring is stressed beyond the elastic limit of the material.

Spring Creep: The small change in length of a spring over time when subjected
to a constant force; increases with highly elevated temperatures.

 

It is good to see you managed to get this rifle shooting better. It sounds as if your gun laws in India are as bad as some would make them here in the US. You are correct, your father's generation didn't fight hard enough to stop them. I am sure if people realized how easy it is to lose a basic right they might do more. But, most people don't bother until it is too late.

I am sorry to see your hobby be so expensive. We take shooting for granted here. One can walk into most any sporting goods store and pick up a basic .22 rifle for under $200.

Anyway, I am glad to see you have found a way to have your rifle. You can be proud of the work you are doing on it. I wonder how many people would do as well as you have, especially considering how little you have to work with. We are so spoiled here.

Be proud of what you have managed to do. Keep up the good work and keep fighting for better laws and more freedom.

Thanks for sharing.

 

Hans471, thanks for the words of encouragement.