Aperture sights actually increase your visual acuity to some extent, I don't know how though. We have a local Dr. who is working on approval for inserting an aperture into the eye lens to help with vision. My distance vision is not as good as I would like but I am very happy using Tech Sights.

Mals

 

I don't know how it works but... if your nearsighted (fuzzy at distance), take a piece of cardboard, like cereal box cardboard, push a hole in it with a needle or pin. Looking through the pinhole you will see distant objects clearing up somewhat. Same thing with peep sights, thats why Tech Sights offer 3 different apertures.

Sounds to me like you need to try to focus on the pin at the end of the barrel, keeping your target just out of focus. I've found that to date holding my sight at the 6 oclock position with the target slightly out of focus works for me.

Or... you could just slap a scope on it!

on edit: Forgot to add, my old eyes are about to turn 57 pretty soon, they are already nearsighted but I'm doing good with my Tech Sights. Scope in the future mebbe, but not this year... not this this year!

 

ROMANS,

Remember, you need to focus on that front sight. Or do you do like me and try and focus on the front sight and target at the same time?

As for a scope, one that says AO or A/O = Adjustable Objective.

If you want a scope, how much do you want to spend?

A "inexpensive" one would be the Bushnell Sportsman 4-12x40mmAO you would find at Wal-Mart for about $70. Ditto the Centerpoint 4-16 for about the same money at W-M. A little more $ would be a Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 4-14x40mmAO. There are other makes and models, of course. These are just a very few examples.

 

Like you, I wanted an adjustable objective scope for my 10/22. I decided on the Weaver RV-9, a 3-9x32 scope. It will adjust down to about 10 yards.

Mine is set up with a Weaver TO-9 base and medium Burris Signature rings. The rear ring has the 20 inserts set up to line the scope up with the bore; the base was a hair from parallel with the bore, and the insert fixed that. The front ring has the 5 inserts to let the scope adjust for targets at 200 yards.

Shot it yesterday for the first time with the scope, and I like it a lot.

Regards,
Warren

 

Aperture sights actually increase your visual acuity to some extent, I don't know how though.

+1 on that.

I have a 70 year old Winchester 69A with a peep sight. The aperture is very small. Everyone hates it, because the peep is so fine they can't find the target or the front sigtht. Everyone except me, that is. Within 25 meters, I can shoot it as well as most of my scoped rifles.

Actualy, scoped rifles are a problem for me, because of my blended bi-focals. Just can't seem to get the cross hairs in focus with them on, so I have to go with un-corrected shooting glasses. Then, when I'm not looking through the scope, I can't see anything.

If you can borrow a peep sighted rifle, see how you like it. It might be an "Aha" moment for you.

Hector

 

I never worry about seeing my target in focus. I can see it well enough for target ID, but other than that, my eye is focused on the front sight.

I'm dragging more years than I care to admit and have had to wear glasses since I was 12. I have a special set of glasses that are just for shooting and working on the bench. They focus at 30" off my nose so I see my front sight clearly.

 

Doug, sure do want to get a 10/22 from you, in the near future will have the FFL lined up. Now, not sure I want the tech sites yet, eyes are not that good. You willing to work with me on this and a different barrel? Pm or open is fine. Everything else the same on LTR.

Sorry for the hijack OP.

 

Tech-Sights now offers a replacement rear sight that accepts different aperture inserts. The small insert should be just what I need to sharpen up the front sight. My eyes are nearly 70 years old, and I qualified with a score of 222 using the standard Tech-Sights. I can't wait to see what I can do with the new insert sights!

 

All you old timers, or ones with bad eyes. I know this has been beat to death, But I just need to hear it from experience. My eyes are not real bad but I have a hard time getting into real focus @ 25yds. I was in the military so I have always liked that style of sighting system. I know how they work , with depth perception and focus.

With that said would I be better off getting a scope. If a scope, where do I find a scope w/ variable parallax for around 25yds. I have looked at about all manufactures. I guess I need a scope recommendation, I just don't know what # to look for.
Thanks

1022 for weapon

Thanks
Bob

Here is the gun I used at the 2nd Appleseed to get and almost perfect 248 out of 250 with.

My Ruger 10-22 Rifle

Ruger 10-22 Rifle
Green Mountain Running Boar 22" Target Barrel http://shootersdiscount.com/cart/ind...productId=1528
Shooter's Ridge Stock http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=176189
Wal-Mart Centerpoint Scope http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=10248654
Volquartsen Parts http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=141815 & http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=363360
Uncle Mike's Swivels http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=705310
US GI sling bought on E-Bay

The 1st AS I went to with Tech Sites on a stock 10/22 and could score almost 200, but needing reading glasses gives me trouble with the rear site. So I scoped up and modified my gun with lots of practice using the AS targets I ordered.

 

Warning, possible thread diversion!

Is using a scope cheating? I had always thought that if the purpose of Appleseed instruction was to show folks how to pick up a rack grade rifle and shoot it as well as possible that we should pay attention to what we mean by "rack grade rifle"*. To me that means something as close to an M1 Garand. M1 Garands did not typically come with scopes, so I thought of it as cheating and so personally I used to discount my own Rifleman score, at least until I had done it using aperture sights. Seeing that my scores were 15 - 25 points lower after switching to Tech-Sights from my scope and how much harder I had to work, that also seemed to make sense that using a scope was cheating. And after seeing that a large majority of shooters are attaining Rifleman patches with a scope this summer, it only served to reinforce this notion that people were getting credit for excellent shooting that they perhaps didn't deserve.

But then I started reading more on the Appleseed forums and discovered that this subject has been debated by greater minds who are far more committed to the program than I am yet. They have decided that using a scope is not cheating, even discussing it using that term, so I am totally fine with that decision and wouldn't challenge it any further (well, at least until I am at a point where my opinion matters). Part of the decision not to challenge it, even in my own mind, any further were some of the discussions about what Appleseed and isn't. It isn't pure historical training, otherwise we'd be teaching using muzzle-loading smoothbore muskets. It isn't pure marksmanship and accuracy, otherwise we'd be using benches and bi-pods and whatever other modern aids exist. In short, we have a program based on a mix of rules from NRA Highpower, CMP and other programs.

Personally I will always think that if one achieves a solid Rifleman score using a scope that it should be followed by doing the same thing with an aperture sighted rifle. For those who say "but my rifle has a scope on it now", just ask around for a loaner rifle. Any Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795 is capable of shooting a 210 with the addition of only aperture sights and a sling system. ANY of those rifles can do it and you don't need to find matching ammo - just good ole junky bulk Winchester 555 or Federal 550 or whatever Wal-mart has on sale is fine.

So, Dice193, I hear what you are saying about not able to make your rifle into an aperture sighted rifle now. So don't. Shooting an 248 is a huge accomplishment with a scope. I'd love to see what you can do without a scope on a rifle. I really think you will be surprised at the improvement in your scores from the last time you shot with the tech-sights. My prediction is that you will be well over the 210 mark. Borrow an LTR and come to another event (if you are not going to do an Orange Hat) even for just Sunday. Or download/buy some AQTs and see if another Appleseeder locally will let you shoot their rifle. If you lived in Connecticut I would gladly let you shoot mine (and extend that offer to anyone else reading this).

edit: *rack grade rifle also means something different to everyone else. Some can interpret this to mean whatever I can purchase today. Others will say it could be any technology the military armorers permit, e.g. scopes, red dots. It can seem arbitrary that palm rests, bipods, shooting sticks are not permitted but scopes are.

 

Warning, possible thread diversion!

Is using a scope cheating? I had always thought that if the purpose of Appleseed instruction was to show folks how to pick up a rack grade rifle and shoot it as well as possible that we should pay attention to what we mean by "rack grade rifle"*. To me that means something as close to an M1 Garand. M1 Garands did not typically come with scopes, so I thought of it as cheating and so personally I used to discount my own Rifleman score, at least until I had done it using aperture sights. Seeing that my scores were 15 - 25 points lower after switching to Tech-Sights from my scope and how much harder I had to work, that also seemed to make sense that using a scope was cheating. And after seeing that a large majority of shooters are attaining Rifleman patches with a scope this summer, it only served to reinforce this notion that people were getting credit for excellent shooting that they perhaps didn't deserve.

But then I started reading more on the Appleseed forums and discovered that this subject has been debated by greater minds who are far more committed to the program than I am yet. They have decided that using a scope is not cheating, even discussing it using that term, so I am totally fine with that decision and wouldn't challenge it any further (well, at least until I am at a point where my opinion matters). Part of the decision not to challenge it, even in my own mind, any further were some of the discussions about what Appleseed and isn't. It isn't pure historical training, otherwise we'd be teaching using muzzle-loading smoothbore muskets. It isn't pure marksmanship and accuracy, otherwise we'd be using benches and bi-pods and whatever other modern aids exist. In short, we have a program based on a mix of rules from NRA Highpower, CMP and other programs.

Personally I will always think that if one achieves a solid Rifleman score using a scope that it should be followed by doing the same thing with an aperture sighted rifle. For those who say "but my rifle has a scope on it now", just ask around for a loaner rifle. Any Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795 is capable of shooting a 210 with the addition of only aperture sights and a sling system. ANY of those rifles can do it and you don't need to find matching ammo - just good ole junky bulk Winchester 555 or Federal 550 or whatever Wal-mart has on sale is fine.

So, Dice193, I hear what you are saying about not able to make your rifle into an aperture sighted rifle now. So don't. Shooting an 248 is a huge accomplishment with a scope. I'd love to see what you can do without a scope on a rifle. I really think you will be surprised at the improvement in your scores from the last time you shot with the tech-sights. My prediction is that you will be well over the 210 mark. Borrow an LTR and come to another event (if you are not going to do an Orange Hat) even for just Sunday. Or download/buy some AQTs and see if another Appleseeder locally will let you shoot their rifle. If you lived in Connecticut I would gladly let you shoot mine (and extend that offer to anyone else reading this).

edit: *rack grade rifle also means something different to everyone else. Some can interpret this to mean whatever I can purchase today. Others will say it could be any technology the military armorers permit, e.g. scopes, red dots. It can seem arbitrary that palm rests, bipods, shooting sticks are not permitted but scopes are.

20 years ago I could have shot Rifleman with iron sights, but like most men 50+ or even starting in their 40s the need for reading glass really limits the rear sight alignment and hurts with the short barreled front sight. Correction using reading glass then blurs out the target real bad at distance.

To scope or not has more to do with vision correction than even the zoom part of it because most using scopes don't zoom in too much or it ruins for finding the target in a hurry and will hurt your scores.

For a young man with perfect vision, iron sights may even be better than scopes and you can definately find the target alot quicker than a scope, but an older man with the inevitable need for reading glass, a scope is a much better alternative.

Lot's of practice using the AS targets with knowing your ammo and weapon very well does not hurt too.

Now if the UN decides to enforce the International Weapon Ban starting with USA after given permission by Executive Order from our current President for International Law to Supercede our Constitution's 2nd Adendment and they start confiscating banned weapons with a blue helmeted International force, I don't think it will matter if you use a scope or not nor if you using a bi-pod or some other artifical object to prop the gun on to defend your 2nd Admendment Rights!

Of course if the blue helmets are coming after your weapons, you will not grab the little 10-22 either like the AS recommends as a rack grade Rifle (got laugh on this one). No you are going to grab the AR-15 or something with alot more firepower than the not much more than a BB Gun Rifle.

God Bless America and the 2nd Admendment!

Got Ammo?

 

All you old timers, or ones with bad eyes. I know this has been beat to death, But I just need to hear it from experience. My eyes are not real bad but I have a hard time getting into real focus @ 25yds.

I had a really hard time seeing the 400 yd targets in poor light. As in, I could not see them at all.

I'm experimenting with a front aperture sight now - we'll see how well it works.

For the tech-sights, you can get the new inserts and a whole variety of front replacement posts. My son got a cross-hair front post for Christmas. If you want to shoot irons, you're not limited to the military style aperture and post, and you don't have to go to the expense/complexity of the target sights.

Look around and see what works for you.

 

Tech Sights are good and I run them on my 10/22 at our local competitions and have yet to be out scored by those using scopes. However one scope user and I did shoot the same score's with our chosen setup's.

I would recommend not to rule out other potential aperture sighting systems on the market made by Lyman and Williams. As I said, I run the Tech Sights on the Ruger 10/22, but I also run the low profile Williams FP-GR TK on my Marlin 795 - though I did have to rework the 795's front sight, turning it into a hooded front pin (post) sight. I do give the Williams FP-GR TK the edge simply because of its .050 aperture I installed. It has proven more accurate so far.

Again, I would not rule out the Tech Sights, but if you're shopping - it may payoff to look at other aperture setup's on the market.

 

Some anecdotal evidence here:

Yesterday, I went to the range and shot several AQT's. Most with a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795 - both with Tech-Sights. I shot a couple of 240+ scores (just so happened to be the 795) and a few scores in the 230's.

For kicks, at the end, I shot an AQT with my wife's Marlin 60 - outfitted with a scope. It was my lowest score of the day (226). This is the same rifle I used to earn the patch earlier this year. It has shot a 240+ with tech sights.


CraigC has stated that he does not feel that most shooters with a scope can out shoot him with peep sights. I take it a bit further, and suggest that is likely true for most shooters.

I know that if I were shooting from a rested position, at a much longer range, a scope would be preferred. However, for Appleseed AQT shooting, tech sights are a bit better in my opinion.

With a scope, I see the "wobble" and will tend to fuss a shot a bit more. With peep sights, I do not see a wobble, and will fire when ready. My scores show this... consistently.

 

I've been eyeing up the Tech Sights myself.

I've worn glasses since I was 5 so my eyes have always sucked, but I qualified expert with the M16 for 17 years straight, and expert or sharpshooter with either the 1911 or later the M9 for the same.

The reasons I choose irons and looking at the TS100 is simply because I am 100% trained in using that sight picture, any other style isn't natural to me.

Plus I am building a 10/22 up for AS and generally because I love shooting the little 22's.

 

S_D you sound like me. I've worn glasses nearly as long. After my time in the Military I prefer the iron sights too. I was always right at 35/36 for rifle qualification and always expert with the M9. I actually prefer the old sights on the 1911. No dots or anything. I shoot better that way.
My 10/22T has a Simmons optic on it right now, but I'm not that fond of shooting with scope and I'm considering installing the Tech sights on it. My only concern is using the endcap for .920 barrels.

Oh, and without my glasses, I can't see the rear sight, never mind the front one!

Aloha,
Doug

 

Get yourself a Leupold 3-9x40AO or (my favorite), a 4-12x40AO. They will focus right down below 25 yards and offer great clarity and contrast. A bit pricey, yes, but it will last you for a lifetime, and you can take it to any new rifle you want and it will do just fine. I use them on my 10/22's and on up to my 30-06's and everything in between.

 

I gotta agree. If you can see the front sight clearly...

Front sight, Front sight, Front sight!

I learned this at Edson Range in 1989. As a recruit, I was issued my glasses. Remember the those BCGs! In typical fashion, they weren't ground exactly correct. I could see okay, out to 300 yds, but the 500yd targets (slow-fire, prone) were just white blurs. I couldn't see my number board, and had to count in from the left end of the line.

My Coach told me not to worry, focus on the front sight, and shoot center of mass.

CLEANED IT!

I shot expert. Later I got my presciption fixed, shot the KD course again, and started dropping points at the 500-yd line. I was looking at the dang target, not the front sight!!!

 

Front sight, Front sight, Front sight!

I learned this at Edson Range in 1989. As a recruit, I was issued my glasses. Remember the those BCGs! In typical fashion, they weren't ground exactly correct. I could see okay, out to 300 yds, but the 500yd targets (slow-fire, prone) were just white blurs. I couldn't see my number board, and had to count in from the left end of the line.

My Coach told me not to worry, focus on the front sight, and shoot center of mass.

CLEANED IT!

I shot expert. Later I got my presciption fixed, shot the KD course again, and started dropping points at the 500-yd line. I was looking at the dang target, not the front sight!!!

Best advice I've seen in a long time.

 

We didn't have optics until the very end of my military career, I started off with the M16A1 and the 1911.

It was all about sight picture, breathing, trigger pull and follow through.

The same lessons I was taught I passed on as a Drill Sgt, my thoughts on optics are that while great they can leave you stranded so training with irons until you are an expert rifleman and then incorporating optics is crucial.

I love the prinicple of being able to take a rack grade weapon, surplus ball ammo and know that you can effectively put rounds on targets.

 

Just in from the range with Tech Sights on my 795. The sights were just installed so 1st time and they are worth the money, much better than original and groups as good as when it was scoped. My eyes are older and I do wear glasses.

 

I recently attended a 2-Day Practical Rifle course at Front Sight, and since my old eyes give me fits with the sights on my SKS, I decided to install a set of TS200 sights.

We were sighting in the rifles at 100 yards with 3 shot groups, and went to check and tape the targets. I couldn't believe what I saw. I'd only put 2 rounds on target. I checked the targets to my right and left, nope, I hadn't shot at the wrong target. Now, I've been shooting since the age of 8, and I don't miss the paper. I might not shoot great, but I don't miss paper. I was a little angry and was kicking the dirt when one of the line coaches comes up and asks what's wrong. I tell him, and he leans in to peer at my target, points to one of the holes and says...
"That's two bullets right there..."

I'd put two shots in the same hole at 100 yards. Not cloverleafed, the same damm hole. Now, I know it was a fluke, I know that both the SKS and I can't really shoot like that, but I did it...

 

I finally got the Tech-Sights interchangeable apertures and installed the .042" (smallest) aperture on my 10/22. I am THRILLED with the results! I can finally SEE the front sight! See results below:

This was shot from a cross-legged sitting position with loop sling at 25 meters. Time to go back and shoot another AQT!

 

Could you post a picture of the .042 installed aperture. I've been thinking on getting a set of those interchangable apertures... Been holding off to see what success others have had with them. Thanks, and nice shooting!:bthumb:

 

OK, here's the installed .042" aperture. It's a neoprene tube with a flat disc on the back end. The tube is inserted into the new rear sight screw, which has a larger diameter hole than the original rear sight. The kit comes with a new rear sight screw and three aperture tubes.

 

The wider field around the .042 aperture insert is a plus. Looks like something I'll be looking in to - or through...

 

The rear of the .042" insert is a 1/8" diameter tube (inserting a 1/8" drill bit in this helps to install it). This also keeps the viewing aperture in shadow so no light hits the back side of it, which is very helpful. I'm tickled spitless with the way it works!

 

Concerning the original poster's issue that use of the scope might be considered cheating, let me make these observations. I know how to use irons, especially on a Garand, and as a young fella did so with some success in competition. But now my eyes have aged and have changed. Trying to use a rear peep sight now results in a dark fuzzy bar extending diagonally from upper right to the lower left, amost as if a small twig were stuck in the aperture. This fuzzy bar partially obscures the center of the peep, right where you would normally line up your front sight with the target. My only reasonable solution is to use a scope. So my choice is to shoot with a scope or simply not bother. I don't consider it an issue of cheating or not. If there were different classes for iron and glass I would not complain. As I see it, the objective is to expose unskilled shooters to proper instruction so they might enjoy the pleasures of successful marksmanship.

 

It's my understanding, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that AS isn't a competition anyway. You only compete against yourself. If thats true, it shouldn't matter what you use. I'll be using Tech Sights at my first AS, as well as a tube fed rimfire. I am trying to put together a Marlin 795, it will be scoped. Sometimes us fixed income guys can't fly like so many of you eagles... we have to fly in short spurts like so many little sparrows.

 

Thought I would resurrect this thread since there is probably a whole new crew of people who have gotten into AS since it ended.

I've shot two Appleseeds. The first with a scope, the second with Tech Sights. I was hesitant about using iron sights since I am 57 and really have a tough time seeing the front sight. I had pretty much given up shooting rifles without scopes due to that. The Tech Sights make all the difference however having a rear peep.

I also found that the thin front post on the Tech Sights are easier for me to shoot than the standard post on my AR15. I am now going to buy the thinner post (match front post?) for a couple of my other rifles.