bkl 257

Get the bkl rings 257 that what I have on my 452 varmit 17 hmr. Works. For 3/8 and 11 NM . Happy new year

 

The rings will work. First step!
1. MOUNT the scope in rings
2. Tighten large bottom screw FIRST to 35 inch pounds
3. THEN put in small top screw and tighten to 15 inch poiunds

NOW JUST RELAX AND ENJOY YOUR SET UP! I have had talley rings 10005 on all my cz rimfires and they all work GREAT!

Here is some motivation

 

The rings will work. First step!
1. MOUNT the scope in rings
2. Tighten large bottom screw FIRST to 35 inch pounds
3. THEN put in small top screw and tighten to 15 inch poiunds

NOW JUST RELAX AND ENJOY YOUR SET UP! I have had talley rings 10005 on all my cz rimfires and they all work GREAT!

Been there and done that and it does not fit.
It can't fit when the 100005 rings, when completely closed measure 0.43" at the dovetail.
A standard 3/8" is 0.375" at the dovetail.
A European 11 mm is 0.4331 at the dovetail.
You can make a set of 3/8" rings fit a 11 mm but without bubble gum and bb's you are not going to get a 11 mm set to fit a 3/8", unless you have the type where the the end segment can be flipped.

A 3/8" dovetail is measured at the dovetail, not at the top.
Take any Marlin, Savage or whatever "american" rim fire and measure, with calipers, at the bottom of the dovetail; it is 3/8".
The dovetail on the 453 Varmint in .17 HMR measures, at the dovetail, 0.375".
(the .22 mag and .17 HMR have 3/8", the .22LR has 11mm which is the "European" standard)
Seems like some people are measuring tops or have the case where some rings can be made to fit either size.
Not with Talley.
Measure, at the bottom of your dovetail, on your rifles with calipers.

 

:Welcome: to RFC and Happy New Year!

It sounds like you may have CZ's 11mm rail and I would measure across the top to be sure.

It's often been assumed the all magnums have American receivers with CZ's odd-ball 3/8" rail and most do, but I have seen a 453 Varmint in .17hmr with an 11mm rail.

The 11mm rail will measure around 11mm across the top and that is how rails are measured in most other parts of the world. As you know our rails are measured at the bottom most narrow point, however, CZ's 3/8" will measure not quite, but near 13mm across the top.

If it ends up being 11mm and you still want Talleys, these will work...
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=13108/psize=48/Product/RIMFIRE-SCOPE-RINGS
The height (.6") is eqivalent to 100006 rings, and there's only those and the lows (.313") for the 11mm rail.

If you want some more 11mm choices, I posted some info in this thread yesterday...
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=426324

 

It sounds like you may have CZ's 11mm rail and I would measure across the top to be sure.

It's often been assumed the all magnums have American receivers with CZ's odd-ball 3/8" rail and most do, but I have seen a 453 Varmint in .17hmr with an 11mm rail.

The 11mm rail will measure around 11mm across the top and that is how rails are measured in most other parts of the world. As you know our rails are measured at the bottom most narrow point, however, CZ's 3/8" will measure not quite, but near 13mm across the top.

If it ends up being 11mm and you still want Talleys, these will work...
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=13108/psize=48/Product/RIMFIRE-SCOPE-RINGS
The height (.6") is eqivalent to 100006 rings, and there's only those and the lows (.313") for the 11mm rail.

:yeahthat:

 

If you have any discomfort ordering Talley rings from Brownell's or anyone else, why not.......YES. Order from Talley. That's right. And just a phone call should answer any question you may have. I have received EXCELLENT service from Talley. Maybe too obvious.

 

One thing

About the BKL rings, although they are aluminum, they are aircraft grade and are very strong! They also fit both dovetails well and don't break the bank. That leaves more money for ammo! Always a good thing! Happy new year!:bthumb: Doug

 

About the BKL rings, although they are aluminum, they are aircraft grade and are very strong! They also fit both dovetails well and don't break the bank. That leaves more money for ammo! Always a good thing! Happy new year!:bthumb: Doug

:yeahthat: I'm very happy with my BKL rings and mounts.

 

I don't like the vertically split rings for some of the reasons expressed.
BTW I have ordered from Brownell's for 25+ years without any problems. They have a no questions asked return policy. I became a life long customer after I screwed up fitting a 1911 thumb safety. I mentioned to the lady on the phone that I needed another one to replace the one I screwed up. She said she was sending me one no charge. I told her it was my fault not Brownell's. Her comment was Brownell's wanted satisfied customers!

 

Tally

452s were made with 2 diferent receivers each with a different dovetail. I had the same problem at one time that you have and based on info from this site got it figured out.
It wasn't Brownells fault. They are the best!
I don't remember which was which but some receivers are marked American and some are not. Each has a different dovetail. This difference only happenes with the Tallys since they have no built in lee way. Any of the rings with the "flap" on one side will work with either action.

 

CZ's 3/8" is an odd-ball rail and not even close to the standard 3/8". The angles are wrong, the tops are wider, and there are very few 3/8" rings that will fit it. The inside does however measure .375".

You can measure them at the bottom if you wish, but the fact remains that across the top, their 3/8" is wider than the 11mm by nearly 2mm and if you're trying to use 100005's on the 11mm rail, it's not going to fit.

Just for giggles... what does your rail measure across the top?

 

CZ's 3/8" is an odd-ball rail and not even close to the standard 3/8". The angles are wrong, the tops are wider, and there are very few 3/8" rings that will fit it. The inside does however measure .375".

You can measure them at the bottom if you wish, but the fact remains that across the top, their 3/8" is wider than the 11mm by nearly 2mm and if you're trying to use 100005's on the 11mm rail, it's not going to fit.

Just for giggles... what does your rail measure across the top?

Just for giggles, the 3/8" rails on the CZ 453 varmint in .17 HMR measures 3/8" ( 0.375" ) at the dovetail and slightly over 0.40" across the top. Not even close to 11 mm (0.433) so I don't know where people are getting 11 mm from.
The only thing unusual about the CZ 3/8" is that the top is not as wide as most american 3/8" dovetails.
Your response does point to some of the issues. Most american 3/8" dovetails (Marlin, Rem, etc. meaure about 0.43" across the top (not arc length) which is apparently confusing some people without calipers.

American standard rimfire rings , 3/8" will work on this base, such as the Leupold rimfire bases.
The Talley CZ rimfire rings will NOT work because they are all for the European 11 mm bases, per the Talley web site.
Some of the other TAlley rimfire bases will actually work becasue they are made for the american 3/8" rimfire, but not the CZ they offer.
The Talley 100004, 100005 will fit on a 11 mm base, by luck, but are too wide to fit a 3/8" base.
To my knowledge, CZ does not even offer a ring in the 3/8" because so many american rimfire bases are offered.
Dovetails are measured at the bottom. As you pointed out, width of the top, and shape vary by rifle manufacturer and have no relation to the size of the actual dovetail.

 

The rings don't fit, they are obviously meant for the wider dovetail. Completely screwed closed with no scope, they can be slid on and off the dovetail.Bottom of box says 100005 but measured width at narrowest gap is certainly much wider than 3/8.

Hmmm... baffling. Is it possible the rings are mis-manufactured?

Just for giggles, the 3/8" rails on the CZ 453 varmint in .17 HMR measures 3/8" ( 0.375" ) at the dovetail and slightly over 0.40" across the top.

Sorry, but this lacks credibility. There is no way with a calibrated set of calipers that you are measurining 0.375 at the narrow part of the dovetail and close to 0.40" at the top... Those numbers are not self-consistent.

What would I do faced with this problem? BKL 257's as already mentioned by several members here.

~~~

 

I have calipers my friend.

Euro rails are meausred across the top, but don't think for a minute that you have anything industry standard with CZ... if your rail is measuring around .4" across the top, you have CZ's 11mm rail... period.

CZ's odd-ball 3/8" measure around .50" or 12.7mm scross the top and this will not be exact per every rifle nor will every CZ 11mm measure exactly the same and I don't believe that any of them measure exactly 11mm.

CZ does offer a ring in their 3/8" (ZKM 452A)... but I don't believe that's going to help you, because I'm pretty certain, that you don't have that rail.

 

I have calipers my friend.

Euro rails are meausred across the top, but don't think for a minute that you have anything industry standard with CZ... if your rail is measuring around .4" across the top, you have CZ's 11mm rail... period.

CZ's odd-ball 3/8" measure around .50" or 12.7mm scross the top and this will not be exact per every rifle nor will every CZ 11mm measure exactly the same and I don't believe that any of them measure exactly 11mm.

CZ does offer a ring in their 3/8" (ZKM 452A)... but I don't believe that's going to help you, because I'm pretty certain, that you don't have that rail.

Have calipers... Will travel.

I think JEE has it right... nothing new there really.

The one theory that seems to fit is that the OP actually has the 11mm euro rail and that the Talleys are for the wider 3/8" rail.

~~~

 

The CZ 3/8 rail on the 453 measures 10-11 mm across the top.

I would apologize for the poor picture but when someone says my input is not credible, they can get their own picture.

In the U.S. dovetails are measured at the bottom, not the top.

The standard 22 dovetail in the US is 3/8" at the bottom and up to 1/2" at the top. The European 11mm dovetail is typically 11mm at the top and perhaps 8mm at the bottom. The 11mm dovetail typically has a 60 degree angle from the bottom inside corner to the top where the 3/8" is typically 45 degrees. The 3/8" dovetail is meant to be gripped at the bottom and centered on the bottom. The "claws" need to touch the bottom of the groove to work properly.

from the Q &A section of CZ
"What rings do I need for my model 452? "
A: American/Varmint models have a 3/8" dovetail, and require 3/8" rings. (3/8" rings are NOT carried by CZ-USA. The reason is simple. The 3/8" dovetail is very common and several ring manufacturers make them. Having said that, there may come a time when we will offer them...)
All European models (Special/Trainer, Lux, FS) have an 11mm dovetail and require 11mm rings. (CZ-USA has 11mm rings available)

the 3/8 dimensions are given for the bottom.

3/8 dovetails are measured at the bottom and the 453 Varmint .17 HMR has 3/8" rings. So to for the .22 mag since both the .17 HMR and .22 mag are mainly for the U.S. market.
The .22LR has 11 mm dovetail since this round is used so much internationally.

As noted, in the U.S. the "standard" is on the bottom of the dovetail and it is 3/8".
For Europe, the "standard" is defined based on the top of the dovetail and is always 11 mm at the top.
A 3/8" U.S. dovetail can have about any measurement at the top, such as the narrow CZ, up to almost to 1/2" on some older Marlin and Rem rimfire.
The CZ 3/8 dovetail just happens to be narrow and close to the 11 mm width of the European 11 mm dovetail. But the clamping surface is defined by the bottom for the 3/8" rings.
Maybe the reason some of the posted pictures in other sections do not show such a clean fit up is they are trying to use 11 mm rings on 3/8" bases. Depending on design, can be done but unless the rings are designed with switchable tabs at the bottom, you are not getting 360 degree support on the scope if you are forcing 11 mm rings which happens to fit close at the top into a 3/8" base.

 

It's all good got453.

In the U.S. dovetails are measured at the bottom, not the top.

I don't think that anyone here is denying that fact. I was merely stating the easiest way to tell which CZ rimfire rail (no body elses) you had, which is to measure them across the top... right or wrong... .4" = 11mm, .5"=3/8". I probably should have stated that a little better originally.

from the Q &A section of CZ
"What rings do I need for my model 452? "
A: American/Varmint models have a 3/8" dovetail, and require 3/8" rings. (3/8" rings are NOT carried by CZ-USA. The reason is simple. The 3/8" dovetail is very common and several ring manufacturers make them. Having said that, there may come a time when we will offer them...)
All European models (Special/Trainer, Lux, FS) have an 11mm dovetail and require 11mm rings. (CZ-USA has 11mm rings available)

CZ does lots of things well, but managing a website isn't one of them and they have had misinformation on their website in the past and are often lacking in the current info department. The 452A rings have existed for some time according to Denny (Brnomann), but were hard to get even in Czech, and early 2011, CZ USA finally got some imported.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379279

These are some of the best fitting rings for CZ's 3/8". They may not touch the narrowest part, but they don't lean or have canted side clamps like 80 to 90% of the 3/8" rings that I've tried on this rail. I can live with them... now to find a gloss version.

I can PM you some pics of Leupold's current 11mm ring offerings, I don't think that you'll like them at all. 4 to 5 years ago Leupold redesigned the side clamps and ruined the fit. Please let us know how the Leupold 3/8" rings fit on the 11mm as it's something that I've never tried, but I can tell you that they don't fit CZ's 3/8".

Excellent scope choice by the way. :t

Anyway, good luck with your ring search.

 

I think your picture proves that you have the 11mm rail. You simply bought the wrong rings for the 11mm CZ rail on the rifle in question, probably through no fault of your own. You need to buy rings that fit the 11mm CZ rail. BKL 257's are worry free and a very safe buy.

Next, Please actually read my post. Are you really going to stand by your statement that: "the 3/8" rails on the CZ 453 varmint in .17 HMR measures 3/8" ( 0.375" ) at the dovetail and slightly over 0.40" across the top" ? Those two numbers are truly inconsistent with any single dovetail rail that is known to man, and therefore not credible. Note that you are citing two numbers, not one.

Good luck to you. You have managed to put off someone who was truly trying to help you.

~~~

 

I been following this post closely and I feel Talley rings are very well made and will fit right if the right ones are purchased. I am looking to get scope rings for my 452 Style to mount a Clearidge 3x9 and I was dead set to purchase Brownell 7.3 RINGS. After looking at the Talley's I like what I see. It does not get much simpler than the Talley's and I am considering them over the Brownell 7.3 rings. I like the way the Talley rings look.:t

got453, If the Talley rings you have do not fit right just send them back and get the right ones that will work. Once the right ones are installed I feel you would be very pleased with them.

 

from the Q &A section of CZ
"What rings do I need for my model 452? "
A: American/Varmint models have a 3/8" dovetail, and require 3/8" rings. (3/8" rings are NOT carried by CZ-USA. The reason is simple. The 3/8" dovetail is very common and several ring manufacturers make them. Having said that, there may come a time when we will offer them...)
All European models (Special/Trainer, Lux, FS) have an 11mm dovetail and require 11mm rings. (CZ-USA has 11mm rings available)

Here is part of your problem. You are giving credence to CZ when it comes to rings and rails. They make accurate rifles, but they make their rails up as they go along, usually out of thin air.

The peoples knowledge and opinions you should be listening to are trying to help you. In the top right hand corner of a persons reply post is a little information about them, where they live, # of posts, ect.. There is also a TPC rating. They get that by being honest, correct, and dealing with people fairly. I know it's a classified rating but A4F and Jee don't get a collective 100% 98 by being a couple of boobs.

Do yourself a favor and listen to the people here that know what they are talking about and don't pay any attention to CZ when it comes to rings and rails.

 

got453, the folks here don't peddle bad info, and are trying their best to help you, I'd take their advice, but that's entirely up to you.

 

This is a very interesting thread to read and learn. I found some things about rails and rings I wasn't aware of previously. Thanks to all the participated. :bthumb:

 

JEE and others
I apologize for coming off so harsh.
It has been very frustrating.
I ordered and received a 453 Varmint in .17 HMR and everything I see from CZ says it is 3/8" bases.
The spreadsheet which someone spent some time putting together have at least 2 entries that say the Talley 100005, or 100004 will work on 3/8" dovetail, so I ordered them at the same time I ordered the rifle.
I ordered a new scope, leupold 3 - 9 x 33 rimfire.
I mount the scope using normal practice, tighten everything down, and I can slide the scope off the dovetail easily by hand.
I posted.
I went back and mounted it again, just to make sure the old head was not too far up where the sun don't shine. Same result. With bases tight against each other, the tips of the doveatils are much more seperated than the 3/8".
So at least those rings don't work, no matter what I really have as a dovetail.
My good digital calipers are at the reloading shed and when I have time to retrieve them I will try to post some decent pictures in case someone else goes thru this.
I have some Leupold "3/8" dovetail coming on Tuesday, so we will see if they work. If not, Leupold and others offer the 11 mm rings.
Again, I apologize for being so harsh and I do appreciate the feedback and this is a hugely valuable site.
Being a control freak with my centerfire work, this has been very frustrating when things are not what they should be.
The only positive thing, in addition to your feedback, is that I did learn, even though they are not tight, the 100005 rings, which are 0.5" height do allow clearance on the varmint barrel and for bolt lift.
thanks again. I will go hunt some Wild Turkey to calm down.

 

I ordered a new scope, leupold 3 - 9 x 33 rimfire...

I have some Leupold "3/8" dovetail coming on Tuesday, so we will see if they work. If not, Leupold and others offer the 11 mm rings.

Well, the good news is that there are several good options for rings that fit the 11mm dovetail, and that is a fantastic scope.

Just a heads up. I don't think that you will like the way the Leupold 11mm rings fit. Mine have way too much side lean (they used to work great, but they changed the design several years back, and now they don't fit a flat-top dovetail very well).

However, a ring that fits the 11mm dovetail great is the Burris Signature Rimfire Ring. The Medium height would be perfect with that scope. They were originally made to fit the US 3/8" dovetail, but they come with an extra set of side clamps that fit the 11mm dovetail great. The Mediums will keep your scope nice and low, and they come with the polymer inserts that protect the scope.

Here is how they look on my Full Stock, which has the 11mm dovetail.

The CZ rings, and the BKL rings will probably be taller than you want with that scope, but that is personal preference, of course.

Good luck. :t

 

Jee,
Those ZKM452A rings fit pretty snug on the dovetail. What is your opinion on the 11mm Talley's?

Talking about making a decision.:bonk:

Talley, CZ, Brownell 7.3..................????????

 

I like lapping my rings so I'm not a big vertical split fan. Another reason I favor non-vertical split rings is that if you want to pull the scope off for some work on the rifle or just to simply clean the rail, it's so easy to just loosen the side clamps, leaving the rings on the scope... but with vertical splits you have to fiddle with getting the reticle squared up with the rifle again.

I did have a set of low Talleys (.313") for the 11mm rail and the fit and finish was excellent. If they had been just a little taller, I would have probably kept them, but the bolt handle was touching the eyepiece. Unfortunately, the next step up was highs (.6") and that was just too high for the smallish Burris 4x20mm scope on my Lux and I ended up getting the Warne 22 mediums. These gave me the height I needed, but not quite as sleek looking.

I'm not usually so ring picky (don't laugh too hard OK ) when it comes to matte scopes. I do like the rings to fit well, but what's driven me mad is the search for nice glossy rings for an American or something sleek for a FS or Lux model. Leupold 11mm's were the best per $, but they flushed it down the toilet. They could have had my business for two sets of their 13mm's if they'd just make a high version and I'm sure the business of many other folks. Larry Potterfield of Midway USA seemed interested in getting some made and was going to pass the idea along, but I've never heard anymore about it. I've given up on suggesting it to Leupold as I feel that idea just gets blown off, but there's usually little that techs and customer service folks can do. Maybe one day they will make some, but I've quit holding my breath.

If they will clear your scope, the medium Burris Signature rimfire rings that OK just pictured are decent on the 11mm rail. I have the higher version.

You can't go wrong with the Warnes, Brownells, or CZ's... or even the Talley's if you don't lap or plan to remove the scope. If you do get the CZ's remember to get the ZKM 452 rings for your 11mm rail and not the 452A ones.

Lots of good 11mm choices, I wish that my two Americans and 452 Varmint in .17hmr had that rail... but they are what they are.

Anyway, I'm going to quite rambling now.

 

JEE,

You made a very good point when the scope needs to be removed for cleaning. So it looks like the Brownell 7.3 will be the ones that will suit my taste.
I feel it would be best go back here: http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=426324 and continue with any questions about 11mm rings.

Thanks,

 

Sorry to dig up an older thread, but his one comes up pretty high in a search for "dovetail".

Add 2 more 453 Varmints (non-fluted) in HMR with 11mm rails.

Receivers are flat (not gloss) and not marked "American".

Oh, and Brownells is awesome...

 

If you really want the Talley rings, call Gary at Talley direct. He will take care of you. Here's my 452 American .22 with the accuracy improving Glossy ring from Talley.
Good luck with your choice.
Dumac

 

To remove a scope in Talley rings, without messing with the reticle angle....
Slacken the top screws a little, slacken the lower screw half a turn, tighen the top screw.
You do this one ring at a time, the scope will now slide straight off the dovetail.
To refit, slide it back on to the dovetail, slacken a top screw and tighen the lower one, redo the top one and repeat on the other ring.
I have done this many tiomes and as yet scope has gone back without loseing the zero.
(if shooting game, please check zero)

Neil.

 

:yeahthat::bthumb: works well

regards

swampdog58

 

Thanks for the great tip, Hornet 6.:bthumb:

I usually loosen a little too much but I'm able to re-level the reticle without much hassle. Talley rings rock and so does their customer service.

 

If you want a ring that fits both 3/8 and 11mm, you may want to look at BKL's website. I shoot off hand competition as reason for 1" tall rings per my body build. You don't want to be crunching your neck and body to look through your scope in an unnatural way,,,,long story short. If you have a low windage elevation travel scope using tall rings, you might have to shim the rear using soda can thickness to be accurate beyond 70 meter distance.