Because in a "tactical" situation, you aim for center mass, not headshots, knees, etc.

My theory being that in any given "tactical" situation, you will be under a lot of stress, and id rather have a big target than a little one. Especially if your target is moving, shooting back, etc. Shooting a guy in the leg/head/arm while both the shooter and target are moving is for the movies. Or Chris Costa

Im sure you could modify your targets and try shooting at those places... but id rather still shoot for center of mass. Headshots maybe, but only after putting a few in the chest. :AR15firin

 

I pray To god it never happens, but if the poop goes down,
and someone starts it i wont be aiming for kneecaps,
kinda hard to be super accurate with a possible turd in
your shorts.
You'd want them down asap, right? So practice for it, and
hopefully it never has to happen.

 

If the "s" goes down, and you're looking for a "bullseye" on your foe you're in trouble anyway.

 

is this what you are after Greybeard? I have some but not allowed to use them on Miltary or NRA ranges over here in the UK as they aren't politically correct.

ANATOMY TARGET

 

LEO firearms instructor here, we teach center mass, save the trick shots for the video games.

If the SHTF you get a massive adrenalin dump into your system. Your heart rate will jump to 150 plus. Blood will be drawn to your core away from your extremities, away from your hands and fingers and the fine motor skills they are used for. Your eyes will loose peripheral vision, you get tunnel vision.
Fine shots like shooting kneecaps or elbows are just not possible for the average Joe, which 99.9% of us are.

Now a SHTF scenario is a sudden & unexpected life or death encounter. Not a planned response.

One can train for a SHTF scenario, like specialized military or law enforcement units. In the law enforcement community these specialized units are rare where you have a full time unit that can devote the time needed for this type of training. I cant speak for the military.

As far as I know, center mass is what is still taught today.
Years ago we taught 2 to the body & 1 to the head, the "El Presidente" some of you may know.

Remember, as a LEO we are accountable for every round fired down range. A miss is a law suit in these times. This applies to non LEO's also.

Practice center mass, it may save your life and your wallet.

I see Ginger's anatomy target, something like that is OK as long as you go for center mass. Head shots are for snipers, not pistol packers.
We use the Hostage Targets where a bad guy is behind a citizen, etc..
We use these targets to teach shoot don't shoot and to reinforce the skills it takes for fine motor skill shots to small targets like a head or partial head or body.

It all comes back to center mass shots.

Most LEO's are not gun people and don't even own weapons other than their duty weapon or a personal off duty weapon.
A lot of recruits now a days have not handled or fired a weapon prior to the police academy.

 

The Israili tactical 10/22 was developed with the rationale that they could quietly snipe at the Palestinian leaders legs to incapacitate them. The bank robbery in LA where the two drug crazed robbers, equipped with Ak47's and bulletproof vests were finally taken down by a cool headed detective with a head shot and an officer shooting at the feet of the other underneath a car. Traditional body mass shots sure didn't work in this case.

 

The bank robbery in LA where the two drug crazed robbers, equipped with Ak47's and bulletproof vests were finally taken down by a cool headed detective with a head shot and an officer shooting at the feet of the other underneath a car. Traditional body mass shots sure didn't work in this case.

Phillips shot himself by placing his pistol under his chin.

 

Greybeard, the argument will go on and on and I agree with TPD, leave the fancy shots for the snipers and go for the body mass.

I understand what you are saying about the LA incident but what would you have said if they used a Sherman Tank as a get away vehicle that the LEO's should be taught to use A/T weapons?

Use things like "El Presidente" when you are in a true CQB situation and you are going room to room clearing opfor, like they did in the iranian embassy siege in London in the 80's. One of the stories I have heard is the judge at the enquiry asked a member of the SAS 'why did you put 30rds into his body?' and the answer was, 'thats all I had in the magazine sir'

The Israelis used the 10/22 fully suppressed for riot control, this was withdrawn as they found it was a 'lethal round' as the IDF and Police were using it for body shots too. After they were withdrawn the Israeli SF took them and used them during west bank missions to silence dogs and other small animals hence the nickname 'The Hush Puppy'.

Lets be honest I am guessing most of the situations that you are pulling your handgun will be one on one during a robbery and not tactical like most LEO's or SF, so in that situation Greybeard stick to body mass.

 

A good instructor teaches not only "center mass" but also alternates. Not only that but center mass only means "center chest" when you are shooting straight on a flat pieces of paper.

Move laterally a few yards and what was a center of mass shot is now going to bounce off of a rib cage or penetrate in and out through nothing but stomach or maybe hit an extremity.

It all comes down to how you train.

 

I stand corrected Lawyerman, you are right, over here in the UK where we don't carry handguns I have never had to think of that.

 

Don't worry about it. Alot of gun carriers here in the US don't really think about it. They practice straight on to a piece of paper that represents a human torso and get great hits. They are convinced that they are great shooters.....

Funny thing though, when bullets start flying people tend to move alot, they tend to seek cover and what WAS an 18" chest suddenly shrinks to a "vital zone" of 4" as they turn sideways to you. That's without any cover, that's simply turning sideways to you, now throw in cover and you're really in the stew.....

It's very depressing to take a tactical shooting class from a quality instructor. You learn pretty quickly that if you were'nt there when a particular shooting incident took place then you have no reason to open your mouth and spout off about " Well, If I had been there I would have done xyz".....You don't friggen know and the two way range is a whole lot different than plinking at pictures on a bright, sunny day for funzies.

 

Well said, Lawyerman!:t

I agree with you, and I just use these internet "scenario" discussions for entertainment value, since no matter what your point of view is, someone else can change it right back to "WHAT IF...", to which there is NEVER a correct or absolute answer!:bthumb:

IF you're confident that you can aim & hit a sighted target, with equipment you can trust to save your life, as long as it's available to use, the ONE piece of equipment that I would depend on, for rimfire And/Or centerfire, pistol And/Or rifle, would be:
...EoTech HOLOsight, for Quick Sight/Rapidfire situations, whether for winning rapidfire fun competitions, or in case of life/death "tactical" shootout scenarios or situations!:comeandge:AR15firin

Just my opinion, from my own experience of trained & learned shooting techniques, anyway, FWIW.

 

Back when I was younger, I went through tactical courses until I was blue in the face. I was watching these run and gun videos on you tube and that got me thinking. "what kind of idiot would stand openly with his chest stuck out in a barracaded position?" If it was me and I had my SHTF 10/22 (which is what I will use if the unthinkable happens) I would be in a low prone position shooting from underneath something. I might not get them all but I sure would put a hurt on a lot of them. I have been in some of the "pressure" situations and I will tell you this. Most of the time a little guy comes out and sits on your shoulder telling you to calm down. I am not disparaging traditional training. I do believe that when using the .22 lr, you need to think outside of the box to survive.

 

I attend probably 2-3 shooting courses every year. It is usually a humbling but enlightening experience. There are alot of good instructors out there.

Between courses I practice the skills I have learned along with those from previous courses. Most of that practice is with various .22's- on the order of 90% or so. It's great practice as long as you keep it realistic and are using firearms that are a reasonable duplicate of your primary weapon.

That's part of the reason I'm here- I shoot alot of .22 ammo, through alot of different guns. I have most of the current crop of "tactical" .22's and several conversion units for handguns etc....I know quite a bit but I get hung up from time to time with some things and this is bar none the best place to get something rimfire squared away!

I'm going to run down to my range this weekend. Probably burn 500 rounds or more on various drills. We finally got a pretty decent Hogans Alley set up and I'm looking forward to several runs on it. The terrain worked out really well for us with both long and close shots and even a few where best cover would dictate switching to weak side etc....I have a little work to do this evening on a couple of barricades we're going to add and then I think I'm done. The whole range has been about a 6 month long project.......Should be a good weekend.

 

One of the ways that you can use "regular" man type targets to get some better and more realistic training on defensive shooting is to bend the targets. Don't shoot them as flat pieces of paper, bend them to represent different target angles. You can do this even on a range that doesn't allow movement or shooting from a position other than directly in front of the target. You change the target shape, not your angle. What you see changes-and a "good hit" changes- even though your position does not.

This is something that is taught by Louis Awerbuck who is simply one of the best in the training business.

Once you get the idea that people aren't always "flat and big" you can start moving around those new targets AND adding some cover for them whether that be targets depicting other people (no shoots) or actual cover. It's alot of fun but I also, having done it long enough, know that at 15 yards and under I can consistently peel a hostage taker off of most hostages. That level of self confidence and awareness is worth something.

 

If you want to see something really scary, go take a CCW class!

At mine there was a young girl next to me that shot at a B27 at 3 YARDS and it looked like she was using buckshot from 50 yds! She had a cute little Walther that was pink but had no clue as to how to handle it. This is someone I dont want trying to shoot at someone who is shielded by a hostage. (Especially if its ME!) Tactical training is for people in the business and those with advanced training.

Get the basic training first then go for advanced and "tactical" training.
I agree with just about every arguement here basically because it really depends on why you would be shooting and the situation your in. If your a SWAT sniper then your picking entirely different targets at different ranges than Joe Public who is defending himself.

 

The reason we go for center of mass is that you ONLY fire your gun when you or someone else is in immediate danger. If you have time to carefully aim and take out a knee or elbow, you had time to take another action other than shooting them.

If you want to see something really scary, go take a CCW class!

At mine there was a young girl next to me that shot at a B27 at 3 YARDS and it looked like she was using buckshot from 50 yds! She had a cute little Walther that was pink but had no clue as to how to handle it. This is someone I dont want trying to shoot at someone who is shielded by a hostage. (Especially if its ME!) Tactical training is for people in the business and those with advanced training.

I can do better than that! At my CCW class I thought I was doing pretty good, but when i brought my target back, there were a bunch of good hits, but also a bunch that were all over the place! I didnt think I was THAT bad a shot... then I started counting holes... We had to shoot 15 rounds for the class, my target had 22 holes in it....

 

I have a collection of zombie targets That i mix and match at the range.
Because the red dots are at different locations on the body you learn to quickly select the area you want to fire at next. Makes for much more interesting shooting than just a centered bulls eye IMO.

 

Tacical targets

The courts go by the resonable person theory, That means if you have
to shoot some one you do a double tap twice in the center of mass
the chest. thats why the targets are shape like that.

 

Well what I thought happened was that he was shot in the foot first then he took his own life. Oh well I might be wrong. The article that explained what the 10/22 Israeli sniper rifle was originally for was to shoot the leaders of the riots in the legs. That's the way I read it. Doesn't really matter anyway I was talking about a 22 lr for defense purposes. None of the experts think this is feasible so I guess it doesn't really matter where you shoot a bad guy with a .22. Won't hurt him, right??

Oh by the way did anybody see the news article about all the bulletproof vests that they took out of some gang's hangout?

 

-Greybeard

•The second robber was shot in the foot and when he fell an officer shot him I believe in the head. But the first robber had a malfunction, cleared it and realized he couldn't escape so he shot himself.
•I'm also a beliver of .22s capable of inflecting mortal wounds on human threats. But I don't think shooting them in the legs is a good idea. But I don't doubt the Jews would open fire on riots/protests which ever the case would be. I also know they use fully suppressed 10/22s on raids to quietly take out sentrys and guard dogs.
•My previous message wasn't meant to be disrespectful.

 

•i'm also a beliver of .22s capable of inflecting mortal wounds on human threats.

x2...

 

We are actually talking about apples and oranges. I was originally talking about a SHTF situation where the 10/22 is my gun to run wherever with. In that case you have time to see who bad guys are and who aren't. I imagine armed groups trying to take anything that they wish. That gives one time to find a place to hide and defend. My thought was that you can't go very far on a flat tire. Now for defense purposes, unless there is a home invasion (my home) where my first line of defense is a very big dog, and my second line is a laser sighted AR15 with hp ammo that will break up on hard objects and hopefully stay in the bad guys. I don't ever envision taking my 10/22 down to the OK corral and picking a fight, and I don't see any of these weapons in a concealed carry. Let the cops carry the guns on the street. My state (Florida) supports homeowners defending themselves and loved ones inside their own homes. You also have the right to carry a loaded gun in a glove box to protect against carjackers if you so desire. My vehicle is not one a carjacker would want anyway so I opt out on that. Lately the police are kind of paranoid about armed civilians and with good reason in a lot of cases.

 

After they were withdrawn the Israeli SF took them and used them during west bank missions to silence dogs and other small animals hence the nickname 'The Hush Puppy'.


• The hush puppy is what the suppressor for the 1911 is called. It mostly comes from Vietman when our (USA) guys were on covert missions. But yes it is called that because it was mostly used to take out dogs. The forces of the star of David only rarely come up with their own weapons. Other than the Uzi and what ever that new plastic rifle is, they copy everyone elses ideas. Hell they took the AK and moved the rear sight back and acted like they made a new rifle.

•Greybeard-
I don't know how it's apples and oranges when all I did is comment on what you said. In a SHTF situation I too would have my 10/22 with me all the time.

In Ohio we have the castle doctorin(?) and we are allowed to protect ourselves, our families and our property. The fact is in an invasion you'll be filled with adrenaline(?) and you'll naturally aim for the largest target i.e. centre mass.

 

The targets we use for military training are green cardboard in the shape of a person. His name is Ivan.

On the off topic, you guys are silly. I love .22's, rimfires, and small bore rifles and pistols. I love to shoot, and I can say that my shooting has improved because of my .22's. But I would never take a .22 to a gun fight. Been there, (I am currently in Afghanistan) and you defiantly want more fire power than a .22. There are cases where a 556 wouldn't stop some individuals and they continued to fight.

 

Soviet Weapons Familiarization School in Grafenwehr was where I came to love and understand the capabilities of the 7.62x39 cartridge. 5.56 does work to a little further yardage, but can't beat them warsaw pack weapons for good reliable firepower. Thank's for putting your butt on the line for us......a whole lot of us DO CARE, and support our troops.

22lr can kill, and may still be the caliber of choice for most murders in the USA, primarily because of its cheapness and availability. A good shooter with a good weapon and appropriate range can take humans out without many noticing how they went down...as the Israeli's have shown only too well.

Though it is nearly universally put forth that Jews are the target of anti-semitism, a semite is indeed a middle eastern arab, supposedly descended from Noah through Shem. Since Abraham is historically a descendant of Shem, that means jews and arabs both qualify. Of course, you don't want my take on Islam....I have read the Quran (still own one) as well as the Hadith. I guess that makes me anti-semitic, though I support Israel's right to exist.

 

TimTactical

Yes we are silly. I know .22s aren't ideal for a fire fight but they will do when all other ammo is gone. It is possible to do a 1 shot 1 kill with .22. Also thank you for serving. My dad was in the Corps along with my uncle. Stay frosty.

 

Druid

No offence, but wiki is not a factual site. It is made of random peoples opinions. I am aware they had to go to a gunshop and get assault rifles. But the video doesn't lie. He put the pistol under his chin and pulled the trigger. He was struck in the hand prior to that which is probably why he did it, realizing he could be hit again. I know centre of mass wasn't the issue because as I said, they made full body suits out of disassembled vests. And yes alot of rifle rounds will defeat level 3 armour.

P.S. Druids are awesome. They had the Romans scared s**tless with the way they fought and displayed the dead

 

This is a family friendly website about rimfire firearms. Keep your political B.S to yourself.

 

Same for you bud. Keep your assumptions to yourself. And It wasn't political either.

Those that hate the truth call the truth hate.

 

Maybe you misunderstood the point I was trying to make.

Comments like the ones above have no place in a forum like this, period

I could care less whether or not someone agrees or disagrees with my views. I come here to talk about .22s and help if/when I can- I'd appreciate not having to wade through a bunch of Anti-Zionist (more specific for you?) rhetoric.

 

Boo hoo. I can't name a single forum that doesnt have people speaking their minds. Thats what its all about. I know I don't agree with every post that is made, I probably wouldnt be replying to yours if I did. And from what I could tell he was talking about firearms and more specifically .22s if you look at the first post you quoted of his. If you don't like what is said on here dont post here. Maybe check out http://www.hashkafah.com/ instead. Like I said, the 3 quotes you posted were all firearm related...on a gun forum. He referred to the people that used the .22 which was on topic.