I have a 1959 model that I have owned since 1980. All I've shot thru it is CCI Minimags. I don't think high velocity hurts these guns. I have not seen or heard of a cracked frame on a 41 like you hear about high standard. They do make recoil buffers and heavier springs if you feel the need. Try www.brownells.com.

 

All the talk about heavier springs and buffers are warning signals that using high velocity ammo is NOT a good idea. That energy has to go somewhere. It's a little like putting a pad between your head and the wall on which you are hitting it - a better idea is to quit hitting your head against the wall!

I sold all my high velocity ammo and bought SV. Let someone else use the HV, it's not as accurate anyway.

 

Bill T:

When a gun is sprung for Std Vel and is shot with Hi Vel the extra energy goes into the frame via the slide stop on the frame. The hammering is not good for the frame at all.

When the spring is changed to handle Hi Vel ammo the slide closes with more velocity hammering the barrel breech face. That moves the damage to the slide or barrel breech face. The gun was designed for Std Vel ammo as it is a match grade gun for competition. It of course can be used for other things but it should not be abused or it will suffer one way or another. The gun is a design exercise in finesse of design...nothing is any bigger than need be to keep the weight under control.

I suggest the gun should only shoot the ammo it was designed to shoot, Standard Velocity. In return it will give back superior accuracy over Hi Vel ammo.

LDBennett

 

I agree. I was told to break my 41 in with CCI minimag. The metal on the breech face got torn up. I suspect the metal is pretty soft to begin with. SW eventually replaced the slide after the third return visit. I would not chance the hi velocity ammo.

 

Well, it looks like Standard Velocity it is. No sense in putting undo stress on a $1K+ .22. I'll admit it's going to kill me to pay almost as much for Standard Velocity .22 LR as I do for 9 MM. Especially when I've got over 50,000 rounds of this stuff in my stash.

 

This is exactly what I shoot in mine with a buffer from Buffer Technologies installed. Problem solved! :bthumb:

 

If I can offer a suggestion....offer to trade your Federal for standard velocity.

I traded a brick and a 1/3 of that Federal for a brick of CCI std vel not too long ago.

.22 LR is hard to find, and when it does pop up, it seems that the more expensive, higher quality std vel and target ammo is what's available, when most people want cheap plinking ammo.

I'd try to trade off some of what you have for some target or std velocity. If you don't get any bites, get a buffer. If you do, then you can shoot what your 41 was designed to shoot, without having to do anything to it.

 

http://www.buffertech.com/Smith-Wesson-41-Buffer-P21.aspx

Is this the recoil buffer you're talking about?

 

Yes, that's the one.:bthumb:

 

Can anyone give one example of a broken model 41 from shooting CCI minimags or similar ammo? One??? I've owned model 41''s for 40 years and all shot CCI minimags exclusively. I have never changed a spring or added a buffer. If you go to S&W forums you will see a mixed review of using high velocity ammo. Of the SV crowd most avoid because of accuracy, some are talking about hyper velocity and don't know the difference. Google and read for yourself. A model 41 is a tank compared to High Standards old models where IMO all this SV stuff started in the first place. Smith & Wesson's model 41 and 46 manual calls for 22 lr ammo meeting SAAMI specs. Nothing is mentioned about using SV or avoiding High velocity ammo.

I own several conversions for my center fire pistols. One frame is plastic a Glock and one is aluminum a Kimber. The Glock uses an Advantage Arms conversion the Kimber used its own model. Both recommend high velocity only for proper operation. Granted both are springed for HV but the frames are plastic and aluminum. Think about that.

 

I tend to agree here. If S&W thought a steady diet of high velocity ammunition would damage the gun in any way shape or form, it would make perfect sense for them to state that in the owners manual. Much the same way every new car states which type of fuel to put in the tank. Or how some pistols and revolvers clearly state in bold type in the owners manual, to avoid +P ammunition.

I looked all through my Model 41's manual, and I could find nothing in regards to using only Standard Velocity ammo. Many .22's will cycle on Standard Velocity, but that doesn't mean they cannot shoot High Velocity as well. Look at the Colt Gold Cup .45's. Most all of them have seen a steady diet of hardball, even though they are meant to function on light wad cutters.

Now on my Model 52 .38 Special, it clearly states in the manual to use only Mid Range Wad Cutter .38 ammunition. It strikes me if Standard Velocity was the ammunition the factory wanted their customers to use in the Model 41, they would state that somewhere in the manual. I'm not trying to start an argument, but it seems like everyone but the factory is who's recommending Standard Velocity ammo in Model 41's.

 

The gun was designed to shoot Std Vel ammo. How do I know that? Because it cycles with Std Vel ammo.

A blowback operated gun is a balancing act. It is the recoil of the cartridge against the inertia of the slide, the recoil spring force, the friction of operating the slide and the force required to cock the hammer. When all is balanced the slide just gently kisses the slide stop in the gun’s frame. When higher power ammo is used the excess energy has to be absorbed by the guns frame. A buffer can be added to the gun between the slide and the slide stop but what should its exact characteristics be? Too dense and it transmits the force to the gun frame too soft and it collapses and transmits the force to the guns frame. It has to be such that it absorbs the excess energy exactly to balance the blow back operating equation.

Shooting ammo more powerful and unbalancing the equation hammers the frame (assuming no buffer).The failure of the gun frame if there is one will be a fatigue fracture. Fatigue fractures are tiny microscopic failures of the metals crystalline structure. When enough of that structure is broken by repeated hammering a crack begins to show. It may take many thousands of cycles but they are cumulative. Will this happen to a S&W Model 41? It shoots Std Vel ammo so it must be designed for that ammo. Will it develop a crack eventually? Do you want to risk a $1000+ gun to save a few pennies on ammo cost? Besides this gun is about accuracy and most all Std Vel ammo shoots more accurately than plinker Hi Vel ammo.

But hey, its your gun and you can do as you please. All my target guns get feed Std Vel ammo (mostly CCI SV).

LDBennett

 

This how stress and fatigue failure work: see graph.

If S&W got the stress in the gun from the slide hitting the frame in recoil from using Hi Vel ammo then the gun could go forever and never fracture. But if they didn't then it is a matter of time before a crack appears. The lower the stress level the longer it takes to cause the fatigue failure. Low enough and the gun never suffers.

Did S&W get it right? You want to bet your $1000+ Model 41 frame on it?

As I recall someone here called S&W and asked about the ammo to use in the Model 41 and was told by whomever answered the phone to use only Std Vel ammo. If you know better and think that S&W's design of the Model 41 has low stress levels then go for Hi Vel ammo. Just saying!

LDBennett

 

Bill T, the buffer has worked great for me. The tolerance is very close, and the slide lock just barely has clearance to engage on the last shot, but it does, and functioning has been perfect for me.

 

I'd love to see a video of someone installing a buffer, if nothing else then I could better understand the difference it may make.

 

Broke Mine

My 1st 41 I used CCI High Velocity. Some of the range officers told me not to. I carried on. Had to send it to local S&W repair shop. Cracked the sear and damaged a few other parts. $100+ to repair. Use std. ammo now.

 

My 1st 41 I used CCI High Velocity. Some of the range officers told me not to. I carried on. Had to send it to local S&W repair shop. Cracked the sear and damaged a few other parts. $100+ to repair. Use std. ammo now.

waynewjw,

"........damaged a few other parts." Do you recall which other parts were affected? Not doubting you, am just curious.

 

It took me too long to acquire my first M 41 to take a chance of damaging it. Only CCI SV for me.

 

LDBennitt has a compelling argument when he refers to metal fatigue. Having worked on the maintenance side of industry, gradual metal fatigue is a reality. Equipment used everyday 24/7 are susceptible to breakage you could not believe if you didn't see it first hand. Repairs have to be robust, equipment has to be robust. To keep things running you need to do extreme things you wouldn't dream of in everyday use. Predictive maintenance techniques include oil analysis, vibration analysis, thermal imaging, xrays and studies in harmonics.

We have two camps here on RFC as I see it, target/ benchrest shooters and hunters/plinkers. The former group will put more rounds down range in a couple years than the latter group may do in a life time. IMO that is where some of this sv vs hv misunderstanding comes form. They are high use shooters and want to keep the stresses at a minimum. They also misunderstand IMO how much ammo some of us plinkers shoot. I use all my firearms to hunt/plink and on average shoot 50 to 100 rounds a day. In my younger years I went through three bricks of Minimags a week two thirds through a Browning Belgium sa the other third through a model 41. Both are still in 95 percent condition. The only standard velocity I ever shot before joining this site was two hunting rounds, Eley and RWS subsonic HP. Now that I'm on this site Lee has me shooting CCI blue box SV. Not exclusively mind you but it is very accurate ammo for the money and pleasant to shoot. I currently have three bricks of it.

If you Google S&W model 41 cracked frame you will not find one example. I still stand by my former posts in this thread that the 41 is designed for ALL SAAMI spec ammo. And with all due respect you'll have to explain to me how S&W knows a cracked sear was the result of high velocity ammo, and that the same thing wouldn't have happened with sv.

Let talk about centerfires for a minute. Some calibers will shoot themselves out in less than a 1000 rounds if full spec ammo is used. That is clearly spelled out in their manufactures manuals ascertained through their failure analysis studies. Either no such study was performed on the 41 or there is no concern from S&W. I have researched this extensively many times through many forums and for everyone that says use sv only you will find someone else who says hv is all they use. For everyone who "says' they talked to someone from S&W on what to shoot the result is the same, mixed. One armorer on S&W forum claims to have spoken to some of the " few" that build these pistols and he said and I quote: (Minimags are fine to shoot). I also learned from this research that S&W uses CCI sv to test their pistol. If you go to S&W's site and click on ammunition recommendation they say the same as the manual all SAAMI spec ammo and refer you to ammunition manufactures links for more info. One of those is CCI. In there centerfire line they call out what is +P and +P+ rated.

So will high velocity ammo wear out your model 41 sooner than SV? Probably, but will it be you, your kids, your grandkids, I don't know. From what I have read no one has done it yet.

 

If you go through the pages here there is a post for a cracked slide but I do not remember the details from the post. I wish I would have bookmarked it as it would take some time to find it now.

I am of the camp not to shoot HV ammo in the 41.

 

It is astonishing how often this forum has this conversation! Dozens of times! Nothing new in any of them! All filled with reasons why HV ammo should not be used and arguments as to whether that's true.

What's conspicuously missing is why one wants to use HV ammo in the first place - particularly since we are dealing with a high end target pistol and SV ammo is proven to be more accurate? Cheaper? If cheap is the goal, why not buy a cheaper gun? LIke a bigger bang? Come on, guys, grow up!

 

What's conspicuously missing is why one wants to use HV ammo in the first place......

That's easy for me to answer. I've got 50,000 rounds of high velocity sitting around I bought back in the 90's for $8.88 for a bulk box of 550. Why would I want to leave that sit, and go out and try to hunt down Standard Velocity for $65.00+, (If I could even find it), for a brick of 500? Is Standard Velocity more accurate? Perhaps. Is it "easier" on the gun? So I'm told...... Is it worth paying over 8 TIMES AS MUCH FOR? I rather doubt it.

 

Just to save folks the time of searching.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243453&highlight=cracked+frame

I would run a buffer just for extra protection.

 

this is a never ending argument. Those that want to shoot hv in their 41's should do so---all day. I'd even suggest that if there is a way to get a .45 acp or at least .22 mag in there, they give that a try as well. Particularly if they could get any of it at a good price or have extra just laying around.

 

CCI SV can be had all day for $45-$49/brick. That's the same or even less than the price of a box of thunderbolts (the worst .22 ever made) last time I saw some of it available.

 

Zediker wrote several books on ARs and I will never forget the introduction in one of them where he talked about people that ask questions. They usually fall in two categories; 1) where they want you to agree with them or 2) argue with you. I always think of that when I see posts on the internet.

M2HB, Thanks for the link to the cracked slide. Now all the people that say they have never seen a cracked slide can draw their own conclusions.

 

OK...The issue is what ammo does S&W suggest for use in the Model 41.

So I sent them an email and asked that very question. This should close the issue. The bottom line is it is NOT alright to shoot High Velocity ammo in a Model 41 regardless if they don't spell it out in the instruction manual. This response trumps the instruction manual because it was done today!

LDBennett

 

I respectively disagree

LDBennett, that is your opinion, but I don't agree. Smith & Wesson has been printing owners manuals for decades and has had ample time to update it accordingly if that is the case. I am confident that if a slide fails on a model 41 with the lifetime warranty, Smith & Wesson will replace it, and usage of high velocity ammunition will not be part of the discussion. If some shooters choose to shoot only standard velocity ammunition in their model 41 pistols, that's fine, but we shouldn't belittle shooters who choose to shoot high velocity ammunition in their pistols, since it is an approved ammunition in the owner's manual. JMHO

 

wproct:

NO it is not MY opinion but the directions of Smith and Wesson who made the gun and services them regularly.

The attachment is an email from them from yesterday. You can't get much more current than that.

It is not me saying it but Smith and Wesson. What more proof do you need? How about you call them or email them yourself if you don't believe me. They have contact info on their web page.

But if you choose to abuse your gun that is your business. I posted Smith and Wesson's response. Do with their information whatever you wish.

LDBennett

 

LDBennett, we saw a screen print of a message from Smith & Wesson. We don't have a copy of the question posed to them, or necessarily the entire response from them. I don't have to contact Smith & Wesson, I am simply stating what information is provided to the shooter from them in their owner's manual, and I just checked online to make sure it hadn't been changed. We all know that you can contact a gun manufacturer and get different responses depending on which consultant you happen to speak with at the time.

You can say "if you choose to abuse your gun that is your business" and I still say that is your opinion and I have mine. I've been shooting for well over 50 years and certainly don't need your approval.

I'm done and have a good day.

 

wproct:

Full disclosure.

Here is the question I asked of S&W:

---------------Original Message---------------

From: Lynn < ldbennett1@verizon.net >
Subject:

22 ammo for Model 41

Which 22 LR ammo should I use in my Model 41 purchased new in Sept. 1993? Should it be Standard Velocity or is High Velocity correct? I am not referring to occasional use but use all the time.

.......................... RESPONSE................................
Reference number: LTK11177011930883X Please use this ticket number in any correspondence with us.
Subject: 22 ammo for Model 41

Dear Customer,

We recommend using only standard velocity 22LR ammunition in the Model 41.
Smith&Wesson values its customers and we are happy to have served you today. Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require further assistance.

Regards, Ashley


It must be great to always be right even in the light of new evidence proving you wrong. Have a nice day.

Others take note: The latest word from S&W, that is not in the instruction manual, is to only use Standard Velocity ammo in the S&W Model 41. Apparently the Instruction manuals are outdated, even the ones currently packaged with new guns (??). Shame on you S&W for not being consistent.


LDBennett

 

wproct:

It must be great to always be right even in the light of new evidence proving you wrong. Have a nice day.

LDBennett

LDBennett, It's ironic, because this is exactly what I was thinking about you last night. First, thanks for printing the entire message and I will try one more time to clarify my point. As stated before, no where in the owner's manual does it state to not shoot high velocity ammunition in the model 41. Secondly, there is no statement in the FAQ questions on Smith & Wesson's website verifying this either. It does state that the model 41 pistol should not be dry-fired.

Once again, if this was really that important of an issue, in today's environment of lawsuits and to avoid costly warranty repairs to damaged pistols, sometime in the last 50 some years you would think that Smith & Wesson would have corrected the manual and the website. The day that I log on to Smith & Wesson's website and see this information provided I will take it as fact.

Look, you shoot only standard velocity ammo in your 41 because you think it is a good idea. I run a buffer in my model 41 when shooting high velocity ammo because I think it is a good idea. Let's just call a truce and leave it at that, OK?

Thanks LD, and I truly mean it, Have a nice day.

 

Mr Proct; I have not read through this entire string so forgive me if you already answered this but, why do you WANT to shoot HV through your pistol? Damage notwithstanding, I find I shoot better, on average, with SV and I can find it cheaper than most bulk ammo. Its pretty hard to beat $45-$49/brick for any .22 these days. Do you target shoot or mainly plink? Don't misunderstand me by my question though, I fully believe that if you want to muzzle load birdshot through your 41, you have the right to do so. thank.