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Open sights vs. aperture sights

3.6K views 25 replies 17 participants last post by  Signmaster  
#1 · (Edited)
Frequently on this board and elsewhere , we see folks referring to their "open sights" when in fact they are talking about "aperture sights". This can be confusing to others who are trying to decipher the meaning of their post.

Here is a great, very detailed explanation of the differences in the types of iron sights and how to use them. Careful study of this article will relieve all confusion in your mind and make you an expert on the subject:
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Open sights generally are used where the rear sight is at significant distance from the shooter's eye. They provide minimum occlusion of the shooter's view, but at the expense of precision. Open sights generally use either a square post or a bead on a post for a front sight. To use the sight, the post or bead is positioned both vertically and horizontally in the center of the rear sight notch. For a center hold, the front sight is positioned on the center of the target, bisecting the target vertically and horizontally. For a 6 o'clock hold, the front sight is positioned just below the target and centered horizontally. A 6 o'clock hold is only good for a known target size at a known distance and will not hold zero without user adjustment if these factors are varied.[4] From the shooter's point of view, there should be a noticeable space between each side of the front sight and the edges of the notch; the spaces are called light bars, and the brightness of the light bars provides the shooter feedback as to the alignment of the post in the notch. Vertical alignment is done by lining up the top of the front post with the top of the rear sight, or by placing the bead just above the bottom of the V or U-notch. If the post is not centered in the V or U notch, the shot will not be accurate. If the post extends over the V or U-notch it will result in a high shot. If the post does not reach the top of the V or U-notch it will result in a low shot.
Patridge sights, named after inventor E. E. Patridge, a 19th-century American sportsman, consist of a square or rectangular post and a flat-bottomed square notch and are the most common form of open sights, being preferred for target shooting, as the majority of shooters find the vertical alignment is more precise than other open sights. V-notch and U-notch sights are a variant of the patridge which substitute a V- or U-shaped rear notch.[2]
Other common open sight types include the buckhorn, semi-buckhorn, and express. Buckhorn sights have extensions protruding from either side of the rear sight forming a large ring which almost meets directly above the "V" of the notch. The semi-buckhorn is similar but has a wider gently curving notch with the more precise "V" at its center and is standard on classic Winchester and Marlin lever-action rifles. Express sights are most often used on heavy caliber rifles intended for the hunting of dangerous big game, and are in the form of a wide and large "V" with a heavy white contrast line marking its bottom and a big white or gold bead front sight. These sights do not occlude the target as much as some other styles which is useful in the case of a charging animal. In cases where the range is close and speed far outweighs accuracy (e.g. the shooter is being charged by dangerous big-game), the front sight is used like a shotgun bead; the rear sight is ignored, and the bead is placed on the target. When more time is available, the bead is placed in the "V" of the rear sight.[2]
Open sights have many advantages: they are very common, inexpensive to produce, uncomplicated to use, sturdy, lightweight, resistant to severe environmental conditions, and they do not require batteries. On the other hand, they are not as precise as other forms of sights, and are difficult or impossible to adjust. Open sights also take much more time to use—the buckhorn type is the slowest, patridge, "U" and "V" type notch sights are only a bit quicker; only the express sight is relatively fast. In addition, open sights tend to block out the lower portion of the shooter's field of view by nature, and because of the depth of field limitations of the human eye, do not work as well for shooters with less than perfect vision.[2]

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Shotgun sights
Among those utilizing shotguns for hunting of upland game, directing a shotgun toward its target is considered a slightly different skill than aiming a rifle or pistol. Shotgunners are encouraged to "point" a shotgun versus the accurate aiming of a rifle.[5] Some even espouse a mentality that eliminates the concept of "aim" altogether.[6] Because much of shotgunning involves putting a scatter pattern in the path of moving targets, the concept of a sight is considered a subconscious aid. The front sight of a shotgun is a small spherical "bead" attached to the muzzle, acts as a reference, while the "rear sight" is nothing more than a narrow longitudinal groove on the receiver and barrel rib. When shooting, aligning the rear groove with the front bead is not to be consciously considered, as it comprises only a rough reference allowing the shooter to use their natural point of aim to make the shot.[7]
In the tactical environment, where targets aren't moving across the visual field as quickly, sights do have a role. For many, a fiberoptic front sight is the preferred sighting reference in conjunction with a rear leaf. In this instance, the shotgun is used more like a rifle, allowing intentionally aimed shots. Some even equip their shotguns with open or aperture sights akin to a rifle.[8]
Many shotgun bead sights are designed for a "figure 8" configuration, where a proper sight picture uses a bead mounted at the midpoint of the barrel in conjunction with a front bead mounted toward the muzzle. Many shotgun manufacturers, such as Browning, calibrate these sighting systems to produce a shotgun pattern that is "dead-on" when the front bead is stacked just above the mid-bead, producing the figure-8 sight picture.[9]

Aperture sights
Rear, rotating diopter drum sight of a SIG SG 550 assault rifle. The viewing aperture above the "3" (denoting the 300 m setting) can be seen Pictures taken under identical conditions through large (left) and small (right) diameter aperture sights, with camera focused on front sight
Aperture sights, also known as "peep sights", range from the "ghost ring" sight, whose thin ring blurs to near invisibility (hence "ghost"), to target aperture sights that use large disks or other occluders with pinhole-sized apertures. In general, the thicker the ring, the more precise the sight, and the thinner the ring, the faster the sight.[2][additional citation(s) needed]
The theory of operation behind the aperture sight is often stated that the human eye will automatically center the front sight when looking through the rear aperture, thus ensuring accuracy.[2][additional citation(s) needed] However, aperture sights are accurate even if the front sight is not centered in the rear aperture due to a phenomenon called parallax suppression.[10][additional citation(s) needed] This is because, when the aperture is smaller than the eye's pupil diameter, the aperture itself becomes the entrance pupil for the entire optical system of target, front sight post, rear aperture, and eye. As long as the aperture's diameter is completely contained within the eye's pupil diameter, the exact visual location of the front sight post within the rear aperture ring does not affect the accuracy, and accuracy only starts to degrade slightly due to parallax shift as the aperture's diameter begins to encroach on the outside of the eye's pupil diameter. An additional benefit to aperture sights is that smaller apertures provide greater depth of field, making the target less blurry when focusing on the front sight.
In low light conditions the parallax suppression phenomenon is markedly better. The depth of field looking through the sight remains the same as in bright conditions.[10] This is in contrast to open sights, where the eye's pupil will become wider in low light conditions, meaning a larger aperture and a blurrier target. The downside to this is that the image through an aperture sight is darker than with an open sight.
These sights are used on target rifles of several disciplines and on several military rifles such as the Pattern 1914 Enfield and M1917 Enfield, M1 Garand, the No. 4 series Lee–Enfields, M14 rifle, Stgw 57, G3 and the M16 series of weapons along with several others. Rifle aperture sights for military combat or hunting arms are not designed for maximal attainable precision like target aperture sights, as these must be usable under suboptimal field conditions.[11]

Ghost ring
Example of ghost ring on Stevens Model 350 shotgun.
The ghost ring sight is considered by some to be the fastest type of aperture sight.[neutrality is disputed] It is fairly accurate, easy to use, and obscures the target less than nearly all other non-optical sights. Because of this, ghost ring sights are commonly installed on riot and combat shotguns and customized handguns, and they are also gaining ground as a backup sighting system on rifles.[citation needed] The ghost ring is a fairly recent innovation, and differs from traditional aperture sights in the extreme thinness of the rear ring and the slightly thicker front sight. The thin ring minimizes the occlusion of the target, while the thicker front post makes it easy to find quickly. Factory Mossberg ghost ring sights also have thick steel plates on either side of the extremely thin ring. These are to protect the sight's integrity in cases where, if the shotgun were to fall and impact a surface in a way that could potentially damage or distort the shape of the ring.

Target aperture sights

Rear aperture of a BRNO target sight. Note large disk and small aperture

Front globe of a BRNO target sight. Note knurled nut holding in the replaceable front sight insert
A 10 metre air rifle target diopter and globe aperture sight picture
Target aperture sights are designed for maximum precision.[12] The rear sight element (often called "diopter") is usually a large disk (up to 1 inch or 2.5 cm in diameter) with a small hole in the middle, of approximately 1.2 mm (0.047 in) or less, and is placed close to the shooter's eye.[13] High end target diopters normally accept accessories like adjustable diopter aperture and optical filter systems to ensure optimal sighting conditions for match shooters. Typical modern target shooting diopters offer windage and elevation corrections in 2 mm (0.079 in) to 4 mm (0.157 in) increments at 100 m (109.4 yd). Some International Shooting Sport Federation (ISSF) (Olympic) shooting events require this precision level for sighting lines, since the final score of the top competitors last shots series is expressed in tenths of scoring ring points.
The complementing front sight element may be a simple bead or post, but is more often a "globe"-type sight, which consists of a cylinder with a threaded cap, which allows differently shaped removable front sight elements to be used. Most common are posts of varying widths and heights or rings of varying diameter—these can be chosen by the shooter for the best fit to the target being used. Tinted transparent plastic insert elements may also be used, with a hole in the middle; these work the same way as an opaque ring, but provide a less obstructed view of the target. High end target front sight tunnels normally also accept accessories like adjustable aperture and optical systems to ensure optimal sighting conditions for match shooters. Some high end target sight line manufacturers also offer front sights with integrated aperture mechanisms.
The use of round rear and front sighting elements for aiming at round targets, like used in ISSF match shooting, takes advantage of the natural ability of the eye and brain to easily align concentric circles. Even for the maximum precision, there should still be a significant area of white visible around the bullseye and between the front and rear sight ring (if a front ring is being used). Since the best key to determining center is the amount of light passing through the apertures, a narrow, dim ring of light can actually be more difficult to work with than a larger, brighter ring. The precise sizes are quite subjective, and depend on both shooter preference and ambient lighting, which is why target rifles come with easily replaceable front sight inserts, and adjustable aperture mechanisms.

Front aperture size selection
Front aperture size is a compromise between a tight enough aperture to clearly define the aiming point and a loose enough aperture so as to not cause 'flicker'. When the aperture is too small, the boundary between the target and front aperture outline becomes indistinct, requiring the shooter to consciously or subconsciously generate small eye movements to measure the distance around the target. USA Shooting recommends a front aperture that creates at least 3 Minutes of Angle (MOA) of boundary space. In research performed by Precision Shooting, it was found that this increased shooter confidence, reduced hold times, and created more decisive shots.[14] There may be an upper bound to the front aperture size that improves performance, however. In 2013, researchers performed experiments with the game of golf, specifically the skill of putting which is another skill that combines visual alignment with motor skills. They found that by manipulating the perceived size of the target (the golf hole) by surrounding it with concentric rings of various sizes, there was a phenomenon that improved performance when the target was surrounded by smaller circles thereby increasing its perceived size. They found that when the target was perceived as larger, performance increased.[15]

Non-target aperture sights
Military M1917 ladder aperture sight calibrated out to 1,600 yd (1,463 m)
Aperture sights on military rifles use a larger aperture with a thinner ring, and generally a simple post front sight.
Rifles from the late 19th century often featured one of two types of aperture sight called a "tang sight" or a "ladder sight". Since the black powder used in muzzleloaders and early cartridges was not capable of propelling a bullet at high speed, these sights had very large ranges of vertical adjustments, often on the order of several degrees, allowing very long shots to be made accurately. The .45-70 cartridge, for example, was tested by the military for accuracy at ranges of up to 1,500 yards (1,372 metres), which required 31⁄3 degrees of elevation. Both ladder and tang sights folded down when not in use to reduce the chance of damage to the sights. Ladder sights were mounted on the barrel, and could be used as sights in both the folded and unfolded states. Tang sights were mounted behind the action of the rifle, and provided a very long sight radius, and had to be unfolded for use, though rifles with tang sights often had open sights as well for close range use. Tang sights often had vernier scales, allowing adjustment down to a single minute of arc over the full range of the sight.

Flip up sights

Rail mounted raised flip up rear and front sight elements on a AR-15 type rifle

Rail mounted lowered flip up rear and front sight elements on a AR-15 type rifle

Assault rifles and sporterized semi-automatic rifles can have foldable rear and front sight elements that can be readily flipped up or down by the user. Such iron sights are often used as secondary sighting systems in case the main weapon sight (typically an optical sight such as a telescopic sight or red dot sight) malfunctions or becomes unsuitable for the tactical situation at hand, and are therefore referred to as backup iron sights (BUIS). Backup sights are usually mounted via Rail Integration Systems (most often Picatinny rails) in tandem with optical aiming devices, although "offset" BUISs that are mounted obliquely from the bore axis also exist. When used with non-magnifying optics (e.g. reflex or holographic sights), the flip-up rear and front elements often are designed to appear in the same sight picture, known as cowitnessing, as the primary optical sights.

Adjustment

Tangent rear sight.

Front sight post.
Open sights arrangement on a K31 rifle, with calibrated markings for ranges out to 1,500 meters

Fixed sights are sights that are not adjustable. For instance, on many revolvers, the rear sight consists of a fixed sight that is a groove milled into the top of the gun's receiver. Adjustable sights are designed to be adjustable for different ranges, for the effect of wind, or to compensate for varying cartridge bullet weights or propellant loadings, which alter the round's velocity and external ballistics and thus its trajectory and point of impact. Sight adjustments are orthogonal, so the windage can be adjusted without impacting the elevation, and vice versa. If the firearm is held canted instead of level when fired, the adjustments are no longer orthogonal, so it is essential to keep the firearm level for best accuracy.
The downside to adjustable sights is the inherent fragility of the moving parts. A fixed sight is a solid piece of metal, usually steel, and if firmly attached to the gun, little is going to be able to damage it beyond usefulness. Adjustable sights, on the other hand, are bulkier, and have parts that must move relative to the gun. Solid impact on an adjustable sight will usually knock it out of adjustment, if not knock it right off the gun. Because of this, guns for self defense or military use either have fixed sights, or sights with "wings" on the sides for protection (such as those on the M4 carbine).
Iron sights used for hunting guns tend to be a compromise. They will be adjustable, but only with tools—generally either a small screwdriver or an allen wrench. They will be compact and heavily built, and designed to lock securely into position. Target sights, on the other hand, are much bulkier and easier to adjust. They generally have large knobs to control horizontal and vertical movement without tools, and often they are designed to be quickly and easily detachable from the gun so they can be stored separately in their own protective case.
The most common is a rear sight that adjusts in both directions, though military rifles often have a tangent sight in the rear, which a slider on the rear sight has pre-calibrated elevation adjustments for different ranges. With tangent sights, the rear sight is often used to adjust the elevation, and the front the windage. The M16A2 later M16 series rifles have a dial adjustable range calibrated rear sight, and use an elevation adjustable front sight to "zero" the rifle at a given range. The rear sight is used for windage adjustment and to change the zero range.

Enhancements
While iron sights are very simple, that simplicity also leads to a staggering variety of different implementations. In addition to the purely geometric considerations of the front blade and rear notch, there are some factors that need to be considered when choosing a set of iron sights for a particular purpose.

Glare reduction
Glare, particularly from the front sight, can be a significant problem with iron sights. The glare from the front sight can increase the apparent brightness of the light bar on one side of the sight, causing windage errors in aiming, or lower the apparent height of the front sight, causing elevation errors in aiming. Since the direction of the ambient light is rarely constant for a shooter, the resulting changing glare can significantly affect the point of aim.
The most common solution to the problem of glare is a matte finish on the sights. Serrating or bead blasting the sight is a common solution for brightly finished sights, such as blued steel or stainless steel. Matte finishes such as parkerizing or matte black paint can also help. "Smoking" a sight by holding a match or cigarette lighter under the sight to deposit a fine layer of soot is a technique used by many shooters, and special soot-producing lighters are sold for use by competition shooters. Even a thin layer of mud or dirt applied to the sight will help kill the glare, as long as the coating is thin and consistent enough not to change the shape of the sights.
Many target sights are designed with vertical or even undercut front sight blades, which reduces the angles at which light will produce glare off the sight—the downside of these sights is that they tend to snag on clothing, branches, and other materials, so they are common only on target guns. Sight hoods reduce the chances of snagging an undercut sight and are common on some types of rifles, particularly lever-action rifles, but they are prohibited in some shooting disciplines.

Contrast enhancements
Various methods of open sight contrast enhancement. Left to right: Three dot, white outline, straight-eight, red insert, dot and bar, gold bead Steyr triangular pistol sights Tritium-illuminated handgun night sights on a FN Five-seven Green fiber optic contrast enhancement rods used in an adjustable open sight rear element
While target shooters generally prefer a matte black finish to their sights, to reduce the chance of glare and increase the contrast between the sights and the light bars, black sights don't offer good visibility with dark targets or in low light conditions, such as those often encountered in hunting, military, or self-defense situations. A variety of different contrast enhancements to the basic Patridge type sight and others have been developed to address this deficiency. The contrast enhancement of the front sight has to be somewhat larger compared to the contrast enhancement(s) used for the rear sight if all contrast enhancements should appear about equally large from the shooters perspective.
Three-dot On semi-automatic handguns, the most common type of enhancement is a bright white dot painted on the front sight near the top of the blade, and a dot on each side of the rear sight notch. In low lighting conditions the front sight dot is centered horizontally between the rear sight dots, with the target placed above the middle (front) dot. Some sight vendors offer differently colored dots for the front and rear sights.[16] White outline rear A contrast variation which uses a dot front sight with a thick and bright white outline around the rear sight notch.[17] Straight eight Heinie Specialty Products produces a variant of high visibility sights in which a single dot front sight and a rear notch with a dot below can be lined up vertically to form a figure eight.[18] Sight inserts Popular on revolvers, this enhancement consists of a colored plastic insert in the front sight blade, usually red or orange in color.[19] Bar / dot or express sight Similar to the straight eight type, this type of sight is traditional on express rifles and is also found on some handguns. The open, V-shaped rear allows for faster acquisition and wider field of view, though less accurate for longer range precision type shooting. The dot on the front sight is aligned or set directly above the vertical bar on the rear sight, commonly referred to as "dotting the 'I'".[16] Gold bead Preferred by many competitors in IPSC and IDPA shooting.[16] Night sights On tactical firearms, the contrast enhancements can consist of small vials containing tritium gas whose radioactive decay causes a fluorescent material to glow. Self-luminous tritium sights provide vital visibility in extremely low light situations where normal sights would be degraded or even useless.[20] The tritium glow is not noticeable in bright conditions such as daylight however. As a result, some manufacturers have started to integrate fiber optic sights with tritium vials to provide bright, high-contrast firearms sights in both bright and dim conditions. Fiber optic A growing trend, started on air rifles and muzzleloaders, is the use of short pieces of optical fiber for the dots, made in such a way that ambient light falling on the length of the fiber is concentrated at the tip, making the dots slightly brighter than the surroundings. This method is most commonly used in front sights, but many makers offer sights that use fiber optics on front and rear sights. Fiber optic sights can now be found on handguns, rifles, and shotguns, both as aftermarket accessories and a growing number of factory guns.[21]
 

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#3 ·
I've become a big fan of fiber optics on most of my handguns ... as most are just used on range days, out in the daylight, where they work best. I really like the new fiber optic / night sight combos too. I have them on my house gun.

Since I learned with open sight from 8yrs old, I like them and can shoot them on most any gun. I never really cared for "aperture" or "peep" sights for anything I was shooting. I always felt they covered too much of the target and unless you're shooting at stationary bullseyes I see no value.

And in a couple of applications I've been having a lot of fun with a couple of "red dot sights" on both handguns and .22 rifles. An RDS can make for a really fun range toy. I do like different things on different guns depending on what I plan to do with it.
 
#5 ·
PaulWVa, if your peep sight is covering too much of the target you are not using them right. The peep should have a large enough hole so that when you are in position, you have almost no awareness of the metal, just a blurry ring with plenty of vision of the target and front sight. The military went from open sights to peep sights because they worked better.
 
#6 ·
To me, the true aperture sight is different from the "peep".

With a true aperture front and rear sights, you have the target shooters go-to. The idea is to select a front aperture that "just" allows a bit of white around the black bullseye portion of the target, then adjust the rear true variable aperture, to "just" allow a bit of white around the front aperture. In so doing, you have a black dot (bullseye), white surround, black ring, white surround, and black field. It is totally parallax free, and very easy to see the alignment of the sights with the target.

On the other hand, peep sights have their place, and (to me) are better than open notch sights for accuracy.

In all instances, having a front sight you can see makes all the difference.

I don't mind the express sights on the Winchester Safari Express rifle, with those set to 75 yards, while the quick detach scope is set for 200 yards. Should something bad occur with the scope, I can still use the irons as they're visible easily over the scope mounts once the scope is removed (thank you Talley!)
 
#11 ·
With a true aperture front and rear sights, you have the target shooters go-to. The idea is to select a front aperture that "just" allows a bit of white around the black bullseye portion of the target, then adjust the rear true variable aperture, to "just" allow a bit of white around the front aperture. In so doing, you have a black dot (bullseye).
That's one way, although IME not the most common. A foresight that allows a decent gap of white, the 3 MoA minimum mentioned above, is more popular. A very tight foresight and a very tight rearsight have two big disadvantages:
1) The small rear aperture makes for a dark sight picture. Yes, depth of focus increases slightly (although a prescription lens is a better solution for the target shooter),but a dark sight picture strains the eye.

2) A very tight foresight is inefficient and can be unreliable. Our brains are actually better at discerning light than size: we use the brightness of the gap around the target to centre the target (one side will be darker when the target is off centre) more than the gap. A bigger gap is brighter so and off-centre target is easier to see.

As for reliability this is related to diffraction; the inside edge of the aperture isn't clean, it's actually blurry. When foresight is very tight it's easy to overlap the target, but not notice as the blur looks just like the thin gap. A bigger aperture makes it very hard to do this.
 
#8 ·
With peep sights as with red dots, I learned to keep both eyes open. Much easier to aim past the front sight (or optic dot) and concentrate on the target, rather than a tight focus on the front sight.

With both eyes open you see much more than the traditional off-eye closed. A couple of practice sessions with both eyes open should make it second nature to keep both eyes open.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I’m a visual learner therefore this was what I learned from this rather long encyclopedia on open sights.
View attachment 532373
I have always covered the target not snow coned it like the above.
Snow coning doesn't work for me. Your goal is the center of the target. Say you set your snow cone to hit center of a 2" round target. What happens if you switch to a 12" target? Your snow cone technique will put your POI 1" from the 6 o'clock edge and 5" low of center.
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I don't like to cover a target with the front sight either because the front sight often covers to much of a smaller target. Then your POA becomes vague and your accuracy suffers.

I alway sight my rifles that POI strikes exactly at the top of the front sight. In use, I'm cutting a circular target in half with the front sight. That puts me on center. This method works best for me because I shoot irregular shaped and sized targets.
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Lollipopping may work fine if you only shoot one size target at one distance like in 10m shooting. Covering a target may work fine with large targets at close range like a self defense hand gun. If you want finite accuracy you have to have a specific matching POI/POA.

Because my oldish eyes have a hard time with any style open sights, I use rear aperture sights with a post front sight. I used to prefer a tapered post but lately I've been finding fiber optic front blades very useful. Especially in dim hunting conditions. You get the sharpests image with the least sight picture obstruction if you mount the aperture sight as close to your eye as possible. What I really like is no matter where you put a target aligned front sight in the aperture opening you'll hit it. I don't know how to explain it but it's true. Here sight pictures 2 and 3 are just as good as 1.
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Aperture sights have been a HUGE blessing in my life. They allow me to enjoy the open sight shooting style I wouldn't be able to otherwise. FWIW a rear mounted aperture increases (sometimes doubles) the sight radius which helps accuracy tremendously by itself.
Image

If you're older and having problems seeing traditional open sights try adding a rear aperture sight. The black 357 Henry has a Skinner winged aperture sight and the Weihrauch airgun has a Tech Sight with a True-glo front globe sight. Both aperture sights are a joy to use. They're sturdy well made products. You may need to change your front sight on some rifles. Some Tech sights come as matched front and rear sets for specific rifles and Skinner has formulas to find you the right front sight.

Hth
Ron
 
#15 · (Edited)
I can see the sights, front and rear, but the target is just an indistinguishable fuzzy grey blur.
?????
Practice looking through the iron sights to bring the target into focus. Use both eyes. It's not difficult if you treat the irons as a red dot. With handguns in self-defense, with practice, you'll be close enough, provided your trigger pull is smooth.

But use both eyes.
 
#18 ·
My gun use study has been for self-defense situations. I don't want to complicate my years of firearm training by two different systems of aim.

In a self-defense situation, I do not want to cover the target, so I use a 6 o'clock hold relative to the point of impact regardless of target size. I do the same when shooting paper, varmints, or tin cans.

That's what has worked for me for decades.
 
#21 ·
Years ago I did an experiment where I shot a group every 4 hours from 4 different rifles. I started early in the morning and ended in late afternoon.i was shooting in a North - South direction. One had a barley corn front sight, one had partridge, one had a bead, one had a scope on it . as the sun came up and moved across the sky my groups moved quite a bit with the barley corn. A little bit with the bead, and not a bit with the patridge and scope. I also had a Sako 222 with a manlicher stock that would group 1/2 inch at 100 yds on any particular day, but from day to day depending on the humdity the group would move 3 to 4 inches. I sold it. I guess what I'm saying is that you have to learn your gun and it's sights.



 
#22 ·
great thread, thanks for posting.

I agree, this should be made into a sticky... there's so much here to learn from.
I say this having learned to shoot using only "open sights" which in those days meant
a notch and bead. These days, I like my scopes.
 
#24 ·
Snow coning doesn't work for me. Your goal is the center of the target. Say you set your snow cone to hit center of a 2" round target. What happens if you switch to a 12" target? Your snow cone technique will put your POI 1" from the 6 o'clock edge and 5" low of center........
Snow coning assumes you have a known specific sized target at a known specific range.

It works fine for certain types of shooting, and trying to extend the technique to situations where it doesn't work or has to be adjusted doesn't invalidate the technnique; it simply means you don't understand the technique. You have to learn to adjust, and know your sights, targets and ranges well to make it work in all situations, and there are probably better ways to account for that.

So "what happens if you switch to a 12" target?" You snow cone on a 2" ring, obviously. Assuming the range is the same.

....I alway sight my rifles that POI strikes exactly at the top of the front sight. In use, I'm cutting a circular target in half with the front sight. That puts me on center. This method works best for me because I shoot irregular shaped and sized targets.
That won't work for me. What if you shoot at an extended or reduced range? You'll hit low, or high, as the ballistic arc varies due to range...which you didn't mention nor account for in your post. Range is absolutely a significant thing.

That's not really true, BTW. I do the same thing. POI is POA at a given specific range, or two. You obviously would have to hold high or low at various ranges to hit center.

I'm just using the same argument you did, to show that it isn't a valid argument, because you introduced extra variables, and then ignored other variables in your own solution to the problem.
 
#25 ·
Snow coning assumes you have a known specific sized target at a known specific range.

It works fine for certain types of shooting, and trying to extend the technique to situations where it doesn't work or has to be adjusted doesn't invalidate the technnique; it simply means you don't understand the technique. You have to learn to adjust, and know your sights, targets and ranges well to make it work in all situations, and there are probably better ways to account for that.

So "what happens if you switch to a 12" target?" You snow cone on a 2" ring, obviously. Assuming the range is the same.



That won't work for me. What if you shoot at an extended or reduced range? You'll hit low, or high, as the ballistic arc varies due to range...which you didn't mention nor account for in your post. Range is absolutely a significant thing.

That's not really true, BTW. I do the same thing. POI is POA at a given specific range, or two. You obviously would have to hold high or low at various ranges to hit center.

I'm just using the same argument you did, to show that it isn't a valid argument, because you introduced extra variables, and then ignored other variables in your own solution to the problem.
Everything I said is spot on. I explained it thoroughly and clearly. You either don't understand what I wrote or you don't shoot varied size targets at varied distances. Snow coning doesn't work good for any precision shooting when there's different sized targets involved. Period.

And of course different distance involve holdover or holdunder. That's a no brainer Snow coning doesn't make that any easier. I don't see any point you're making here as practical. Sure you can align and set your sights anyway you want and probably do fine with them with practice. I'd rather use (and suggest) a method that works for all size targets. Range finding and ballistics is always a consideration when shooting. Arguing about that is pointless.
 
#26 ·
Everything I said is spot on. I explained it thoroughly and clearly. You either don't understand what I wrote or you don't shoot varied size targets at varied distances. Snow coning doesn't work good for any precision shooting when there's different sized targets involved. Period.

And of course different distance involve holdover or holdunder. That's a no brainer Snow coning doesn't make that any easier. I don't see any point you're making here as practical. Sure you can align and set your sights anyway you want and probably do fine with them with practice. I'd rather use (and suggest) a method that works for all size targets. Range finding and ballistics is always a consideration when shooting. Arguing about that is pointless.
Actually everything you said is not spot on. @ajole brought up a valid point regarding the reason a 6'oclock hold might be better in certain situations, which you disregarded. Not to invalidate your point, at times POA=POI has advantages as well, but within limits. You bring up one of these limits yourself, that being contrast on the target. So a black front post on a black target allows less contrast, so shooting different colored targets or varied light conditions brings up weaknesses. There are advantages and disadvantages to any sighting system you use, and I've yet to find one that is perfect for all applications.



As for this....

Because my oldish eyes have a hard time with any style open sights, I use rear aperture sights with a post front sight. I used to prefer a tapered post but lately I've been finding fiber optic front blades very useful. Especially in dim hunting conditions. You get the sharpests image with the least sight picture obstruction if you mount the aperture sight as close to your eye as possible. What I really like is no matter where you put a target aligned front sight in the aperture opening you'll hit it. I don't know how to explain it but it's true. Here sight pictures 2 and 3 are just as good as 1.
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... it is simply incorrect. These examples show proper sight alignment and proper sight picture in example 1, and improper sight alignment in examples 2 and 3. Assuming proper sight adjustments were made to hit POA=POI and trajectories are out of the picture, you might still hit a target, but the farther away you shoot the greater the error will be any time you have improper sight alignment. This would vary in total change depending on the size of your rear aperture as well as your sight radius.

Sight alignment is much more important than sight picture if you are shooting at varied ranges. As example, if you use your figure 1 with proper alignment, but the sight picture puts it on target at 8 o'clock in the 7 ring (of a ringed, score based target) it will impact that point with POA=POI shooting. If you double the distance (once again ballistics covered) and still aim 8 o'clock in the 7 ring on the same target, you still hit where you aim.

In your examples 2 and 3, the improper sight alignment will not allow consistent impact points as ranges change. The farther away you go, the more the impact will vary from the aiming point. Any time the geometry is flawed, the equation (error) will change with distance.



There is no perfect sighting system for all applications. And one can easily make arguments for any certain type, especially if it suits them. That doesn't invalidate what works for others, especially if using them in other conditions. And when you add the various different sighting systems into the picture, there are even more variables in the picture, again often with human preferences involved.