Ok... so if unwanted the most accurate 10/22 I can build... who's barely would I start with. I know Kidd is awesome, I hear great things about Feddersen, and companies like Volquartzen, Lilja and Shilen and Green mountain have good reputations, but for strictly accuracy, who is top dog?
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wil2279
The best way to be sure of the highest and best chance to have the most accurate barrel possible for your 10/22 is to send it to a very reputable gun smith.
Have said gun smith order you a barrel blank, chamber and install it for you.
When it comes to the barrel blank go with the gun smith recommendation.
"The biggest communication problem is we don't listen to understand, we listen to reply"
Have said gun smith order you a barrel blank, chamber and install it for you.
When it comes to the barrel blank go with the gun smith recommendation.
"The biggest communication problem is we don't listen to understand, we listen to reply"
$375
Yeah, I know, you get what you pay for.
I didn't even know they made 10/22 barrels.
I'll have to check them out. Have you posted any targets?
I don't want to hijack the thread, please send me a PM with some targets, distance shot, ammo & setup used if you have pics...
:bthumb:
Yeah, I know, you get what you pay for.
I didn't even know they made 10/22 barrels.
I'll have to check them out. Have you posted any targets?
I don't want to hijack the thread, please send me a PM with some targets, distance shot, ammo & setup used if you have pics...
:bthumb:
My top shooters are Lilja and Kidd. I have had many GM barrels and several have been outstanding but only 1 or 2 have been able to keep up with my Kidd's and my Lilja. I've also tried VQ, Tacsol, WP, Shilen, and Clark. Of that list, only the VQs I've had were barrels I'd buy again.
The bottom line is there is no barrel manufacturer that is going to make absolute dead nuts accurate barrels every time. There will be an average base accuracy by every producer, which will also produce the occasional lemon and the occasional outstanding hummer. In my mind, it is a game involving the law of averages.
Which barrel maker do you have a better chance of getting an absolute tack driver from?
I do not keep a barrel if it does not really impress me, and I have sent back and sold several dozen.
IMO and IME, too many people buy a barrel and absolutely commit to it, building everything else around it and swapping parts, bedding, etc when they should be thinking of the barrel as yet another replaceable component in a system. I test each barrel I buy extensively in an action/stock setup that is proven in every way, then decide if it's a keeper or not.
Serious competitive shooters use a "weeding out" process when building a rifle from scratch. They will buy as many barrel blanks as they can commit to the project, often 10 or more and send them all to their gunsmith who will proceed to slug them and choose the top two or three that have the proper choke characteristics at the desired length to be keepers. Those blanks will be chambered, crowned, lapped and tested to find the ONE that the rifle will use. The rest? They will be sold down the road as "tomato stakes ".
I do not have a custom rifle in my safe that has the first barrel that I bought for it still in place. Many of them have had two or three barrel swaps and a couple of them up to five or six before I found the barrel that I was happy with.
Of all of the rimfire barrel manufacturers that I have used over the years building SEMI AUTO rimfire rifles for myself and others, Kidd is the company that has produced the highest PERCENTAGE of highly accurate barrels, but I've even returned and/or sold several of theirs.
Good Luck!
DrGunner
The bottom line is there is no barrel manufacturer that is going to make absolute dead nuts accurate barrels every time. There will be an average base accuracy by every producer, which will also produce the occasional lemon and the occasional outstanding hummer. In my mind, it is a game involving the law of averages.
Which barrel maker do you have a better chance of getting an absolute tack driver from?
I do not keep a barrel if it does not really impress me, and I have sent back and sold several dozen.
IMO and IME, too many people buy a barrel and absolutely commit to it, building everything else around it and swapping parts, bedding, etc when they should be thinking of the barrel as yet another replaceable component in a system. I test each barrel I buy extensively in an action/stock setup that is proven in every way, then decide if it's a keeper or not.
Serious competitive shooters use a "weeding out" process when building a rifle from scratch. They will buy as many barrel blanks as they can commit to the project, often 10 or more and send them all to their gunsmith who will proceed to slug them and choose the top two or three that have the proper choke characteristics at the desired length to be keepers. Those blanks will be chambered, crowned, lapped and tested to find the ONE that the rifle will use. The rest? They will be sold down the road as "tomato stakes ".
I do not have a custom rifle in my safe that has the first barrel that I bought for it still in place. Many of them have had two or three barrel swaps and a couple of them up to five or six before I found the barrel that I was happy with.
Of all of the rimfire barrel manufacturers that I have used over the years building SEMI AUTO rimfire rifles for myself and others, Kidd is the company that has produced the highest PERCENTAGE of highly accurate barrels, but I've even returned and/or sold several of theirs.
Good Luck!
DrGunner
I have had all the top brands and many custom rifles over the years including two custom AMT's with Shilen barrels that were probably the most accurate 10/22 rifles I have had. Unfortunately, photobucket went full on us and my past posts about the dot drill is no longer available.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/05/sako-finnfire-for-rimfire-tactical-competition/
http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/rimfire-tactical-precision-match/
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265644&page=2
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265644
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310347&page=3
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/05/sako-finnfire-for-rimfire-tactical-competition/
http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/rimfire-tactical-precision-match/
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265644&page=2
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265644
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310347&page=3
I've tried 10/22 barrels from pretty much all of the more popular companies. I have 14 10/22's all custom builds, and the 3 that have Feddersen barrels are the 3 most accurate ones I own. My Kidd's are a very close second however. That doesn't mean you won't get a phenomenal shooting barrel from another company but with some you are rolling the dice to hope and get a shooter.
What ammo? Unless the scope is defective, something is loose. I'd check the rings, then another scope (or test the scope on another rifle that you know shoots).
Something is off there. I am shooting the same scope with stock SS barrel and stock bolt (LVT model off bi pod with back rest) and I am at a bit over .500 at 50 and thats me.
________________________________________
Single shot shooters only shoot once
Bruce A. Hering
Program Coordinator/Lead Instructor
Shotgun Team Coach
Southeastern Illinois College
SCTP Collegiate Coaches Chairman
NSCA Level III
________________________________________
Single shot shooters only shoot once
Bruce A. Hering
Program Coordinator/Lead Instructor
Shotgun Team Coach
Southeastern Illinois College
SCTP Collegiate Coaches Chairman
NSCA Level III
Happy to report I think I'm starting to get it ironed out. Took V block off and re-aligned barrel to make sure the block tightened uniformly on both sides. Ran a Boresnake through it with some Hoppe's, snugged up the scope mounts and took the Kidd comp off and replaced with the factory thread protector. It definitely prefers S&K plus standard. 10 shots at a little less than 3/8ths at 50yds. I think I can probably get it in the .200's with a little tweaking and practice.
Crown Rant
There are many factors that determine the precision level of a barrel, and as has been said, while one brand may have more "shooters" than another, almost all of the major 10/22 "barrel-making" companies seem to have examples of excellent shooting barrels.
Barrel making consists of deep hole drilling and reaming, button or cut rifling (or mass produced hammer forging), heat treatment, contouring, and on some barrels, hand or machine bore lapping. Some call these finished barrels "barrel blanks".
Barrel fitting/finishing includes cutting and crowning, chambering, threading or machining to fit a specific receiver type, and perhaps other procedures such as additional contouring, fluting, muzzle threading, and surface finishing. In some instances the barrel maker's shop does all, sometimes the branded barrel supplier does almost nothing, and sometimes the fitting of a barrel blanks are done on an individual basis by gunsmiths. For example, barrel maker A might do just contoured blanks, and all further operations are done by a gunsmith. I would imagine virtually all competent/serious benchrest competition rifles barrels follow this route. On the other hand, barrel "maker" B might buy complete barrels from a real barrel maker, and perform only minor barrel fitting/finishing procedures. Herein lies an issue . . .
Barrel vendors that sell crowned, finished barrels chambered and fitted for 10/22 actions generally seem to NOT cut barrel crowns using a lathe and toolbit method. To do properly, crowning requires dialing in of the bore to .000X" levels, either directly or using a pin, prior to cutting, and then cutting of a flat, usually recessed crown or 11 degree taper using a lathe and the proper tooling. This is too time and expertise intensive for the competitively priced market, and quite frankly, not required to meet the general needs of the 10/22 aftermarket barrel market. So other methods are used, including the use of barrel crowning reamers/cutters. Stick it in - spin it - yur done. Problem is, IMHO, this crowning method is rarely likely to permit the full precision potential of the barrel. These reamers/cutters usually produce a chamfer cut of the barrel crown. I don't believe this, even when done absolutely symmetrically, will provide optimal precision. And it usually ISN'T done perfectly. I also believe that dial-in/lathe/toolbit re-crowning of barrels is (yes - along with proper chambering!) the main reason gunsmiths that perform "accurizing" of 10/22's generally produce excellent results.
I currently have a very recently purchased barrel from a major 10/22 barrel maker that exhibits this issue. Look closely at the chamfering of the crown. There is a significant chamfer on one side of the crown, and none on the opposite side. Think of what is going to happen when a bullet exits this barrel, with hot pressurized gas behind it. There is NO WAY this barrel will be a shooter as is, and NO WAY I will build a rifle around this barrel as it is.
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Okay - long post. Short version - if you want a seriously accurate/precise barrel, get someone, a barrel maker or competent gunsmith, to crown your barrel using a proper dial-in/lathe/toolbit method. Of course, to get a "shooter", other barrel parameters must also be good, but even a barrel with the best chambering and bore will not shoot with a crappy crown.
There are many factors that determine the precision level of a barrel, and as has been said, while one brand may have more "shooters" than another, almost all of the major 10/22 "barrel-making" companies seem to have examples of excellent shooting barrels.
Barrel making consists of deep hole drilling and reaming, button or cut rifling (or mass produced hammer forging), heat treatment, contouring, and on some barrels, hand or machine bore lapping. Some call these finished barrels "barrel blanks".
Barrel fitting/finishing includes cutting and crowning, chambering, threading or machining to fit a specific receiver type, and perhaps other procedures such as additional contouring, fluting, muzzle threading, and surface finishing. In some instances the barrel maker's shop does all, sometimes the branded barrel supplier does almost nothing, and sometimes the fitting of a barrel blanks are done on an individual basis by gunsmiths. For example, barrel maker A might do just contoured blanks, and all further operations are done by a gunsmith. I would imagine virtually all competent/serious benchrest competition rifles barrels follow this route. On the other hand, barrel "maker" B might buy complete barrels from a real barrel maker, and perform only minor barrel fitting/finishing procedures. Herein lies an issue . . .
Barrel vendors that sell crowned, finished barrels chambered and fitted for 10/22 actions generally seem to NOT cut barrel crowns using a lathe and toolbit method. To do properly, crowning requires dialing in of the bore to .000X" levels, either directly or using a pin, prior to cutting, and then cutting of a flat, usually recessed crown or 11 degree taper using a lathe and the proper tooling. This is too time and expertise intensive for the competitively priced market, and quite frankly, not required to meet the general needs of the 10/22 aftermarket barrel market. So other methods are used, including the use of barrel crowning reamers/cutters. Stick it in - spin it - yur done. Problem is, IMHO, this crowning method is rarely likely to permit the full precision potential of the barrel. These reamers/cutters usually produce a chamfer cut of the barrel crown. I don't believe this, even when done absolutely symmetrically, will provide optimal precision. And it usually ISN'T done perfectly. I also believe that dial-in/lathe/toolbit re-crowning of barrels is (yes - along with proper chambering!) the main reason gunsmiths that perform "accurizing" of 10/22's generally produce excellent results.
I currently have a very recently purchased barrel from a major 10/22 barrel maker that exhibits this issue. Look closely at the chamfering of the crown. There is a significant chamfer on one side of the crown, and none on the opposite side. Think of what is going to happen when a bullet exits this barrel, with hot pressurized gas behind it. There is NO WAY this barrel will be a shooter as is, and NO WAY I will build a rifle around this barrel as it is.
Okay - long post. Short version - if you want a seriously accurate/precise barrel, get someone, a barrel maker or competent gunsmith, to crown your barrel using a proper dial-in/lathe/toolbit method. Of course, to get a "shooter", other barrel parameters must also be good, but even a barrel with the best chambering and bore will not shoot with a crappy crown.
This☝.....
So like I said, want the best possible odds of having the most accurate barrel for a 10/22? Or any firearm ?
Take it to a reputable gunsmith that specializes in that particular action and have them acquire, cut, and fit a barrel to the gun that you want the most accurate barrel for.
That's the only way to "get the most accurate barrel".......
"The biggest communication problem is we don't listen to understand, we listen to reply"
So like I said, want the best possible odds of having the most accurate barrel for a 10/22? Or any firearm ?
Take it to a reputable gunsmith that specializes in that particular action and have them acquire, cut, and fit a barrel to the gun that you want the most accurate barrel for.
That's the only way to "get the most accurate barrel".......
"The biggest communication problem is we don't listen to understand, we listen to reply"
I agree in most cases a barrel will benefit by having a competent gunsmith work on the barrel. But this is mostly true for OEM barrels. The higher end barrels from places like Feddersen, Kidd, etc. are usually pretty good as is and will not benefit from sending them out to a gunsmith.
"But this is mostly true for OEM barrels. The higher end barrels from places like Feddersen, Kidd, etc. are usually pretty good as is and will not benefit from sending them out to a gunsmith."
I respectfully beg to differ . . .
Until resellers like Kidd (who are NOT a barrel maker) and others properly crown their barrels (not going to happen), you can expect to potentially leave precision on the table with poorly cut crowns. Additionally, crowns can be worn and damaged, especially from cleaning from the muzzle.
We are not talking about compromising "minute of squirrel" precision, but why don't you post that statement on the rimfire benchrest forum and see what the competition folks say.
I respectfully beg to differ . . .
Until resellers like Kidd (who are NOT a barrel maker) and others properly crown their barrels (not going to happen), you can expect to potentially leave precision on the table with poorly cut crowns. Additionally, crowns can be worn and damaged, especially from cleaning from the muzzle.
We are not talking about compromising "minute of squirrel" precision, but why don't you post that statement on the rimfire benchrest forum and see what the competition folks say.
My Feddersen barreled 10/22's will shoot .2's from 50 yards, (and I'm by no means a great shooter)I don't see any gunsmith improving on that. Guys that are shooting competition benchrest are more likely to start with a blank and then send them out. I'm not saying that there aren't gunsmith's out there that can make a more accurate barrel, I just wouldn't imagine anyone is ordering a barrel from Feddersen or Kidd to plan on sending them out to be worked on.
[/QUOTE]
Unlike other barrel sellers kid is top notch and a step above federson and G.M..
"The biggest communication problem is we don't listen to understand, we listen to reply"[/QUOTE]
Kidd is top notch and they make excellent products with great customer service. I own 2 Kidd rifles and they are great rifles. But their barrels are in no way a step above Feddersen, GM yes. Feddersen barrels may not be as "pretty" as the Kidd's but the quality and accuracy is right there, along with the excellent customer service. I don't know Fred Feddersen's complete history but I'm sure he is more than qualified. It seems a lot of the people who don't believe that Feddersen barrels are as good as Kidd's have never owned one. I'm in no way whatsoever affiliated with Feddersen, I'm just speaking from my own experience with 3 separate Feddersen barrels.
Unlike other barrel sellers kid is top notch and a step above federson and G.M..
"The biggest communication problem is we don't listen to understand, we listen to reply"[/QUOTE]
Kidd is top notch and they make excellent products with great customer service. I own 2 Kidd rifles and they are great rifles. But their barrels are in no way a step above Feddersen, GM yes. Feddersen barrels may not be as "pretty" as the Kidd's but the quality and accuracy is right there, along with the excellent customer service. I don't know Fred Feddersen's complete history but I'm sure he is more than qualified. It seems a lot of the people who don't believe that Feddersen barrels are as good as Kidd's have never owned one. I'm in no way whatsoever affiliated with Feddersen, I'm just speaking from my own experience with 3 separate Feddersen barrels.
I have shot some groups with my Kidd barrels that a top end of a BIC ink pen will cover over 90% of all 5 shots at 50yds. Now I can't see a Feddersen barrel doing any better or as good.
Sorry, but Kidd is a barrel reseller - as opposed to a barrel maker. The procedures you describe are barrel fitting and finishing, not barrel making, so you can include these as well. I have a Kidd barrel (SS Match Bull) and love it, and my 10/22's are fitted with Kidd single and double stage triggers, as well as numerous other Kidd parts. Love 'em all.
Mr. Kidd's qualifications as a gunsmith are outstanding and his shop produces awesome products for the 10/22 market. Additionally he appears to be a very astute businessman. But he's not a barrel maker. Ask him.
P.S. Does anyone know what Kidd's barrel lapping consists of? Has anyone seen this process to describe it? What is lapped (What stage is the barrel blank at when lapped? Before of after contouring? Before or after fluting?), what lapping procedure is used? (human or machine? poured lead plug or other?) what type of compound is used and to what purpose (polishing and/or profiling)? Etc. Just curious.
Again - I love my Kidd products, and would recommend them to others, but it doesn't mean Kidd barrels cannot be improved upon - in fact, they are probably a great "raw material" to have additional work (like re-crowning) performed - if you are seeking the optimum precision.
Mr. Kidd's qualifications as a gunsmith are outstanding and his shop produces awesome products for the 10/22 market. Additionally he appears to be a very astute businessman. But he's not a barrel maker. Ask him.
P.S. Does anyone know what Kidd's barrel lapping consists of? Has anyone seen this process to describe it? What is lapped (What stage is the barrel blank at when lapped? Before of after contouring? Before or after fluting?), what lapping procedure is used? (human or machine? poured lead plug or other?) what type of compound is used and to what purpose (polishing and/or profiling)? Etc. Just curious.
Again - I love my Kidd products, and would recommend them to others, but it doesn't mean Kidd barrels cannot be improved upon - in fact, they are probably a great "raw material" to have additional work (like re-crowning) performed - if you are seeking the optimum precision.
This is what I said: "Kidd is a barrel reseller - as opposed to a barrel maker." The procedures you describe are barrel fitting (gunsmithing) and finishing, not barrel making, so you can include these as well."
I stand by my definitions. He is a value-added barrel finisher and fitter (I consider fitting to be chambering and fitting to an action i.e. "gunsmithing"). His shop doesn't start with a piece of round bar steel, doesn't deep hole drill, doesn't deep hole ream, doesn't put rifling in the hole. Therefore NOT a maker of barrels. He adds a lot of value, probably more than any other Non-barrel making fitter/finisher/reseller.
I'm done here.
I stand by my definitions. He is a value-added barrel finisher and fitter (I consider fitting to be chambering and fitting to an action i.e. "gunsmithing"). His shop doesn't start with a piece of round bar steel, doesn't deep hole drill, doesn't deep hole ream, doesn't put rifling in the hole. Therefore NOT a maker of barrels. He adds a lot of value, probably more than any other Non-barrel making fitter/finisher/reseller.
I'm done here.
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