sounds like a money pit to me. You're putting a lot of money into something you will never get much out of. Sometimes it's best to just let it go. Most of these were beat to death do to high-speed ammo. I've seen locking lugs busted off the bolts on these. I have one in my parts bin like that. In a recent thread on here, you will see a pic of a broken bolt. When you get it done, you won't be able to shoot high-speed ammo in it. Find a 121 and rebuild it or just pay the money for a good M12 or M121 and save yourself some money in the long run.

 

Money Pit (Yes) I have been chasing one of these rifles for about 6 years, every one I have ever seen either has the barrel shot out and is useless, or the gun will not stay locked-up during firing and the bolt pops open due to the locking lug being extremely worn out and beveled the locking lug hole /ledge and the receiver is ruined, or someone been using it a garden stake (or so it seems) if I do find a nice one that everything is right on it they want $800 to $1200 for one. I don't really desire a model 121 yes they are similar, but the model 12 or 12-A holds memories for me, when I am done with this one I will about $600 in it. last year I rebuilt a Ranger 103 or a Marlin 81-DL and I have more in it than it's worth. I have a Mauser K98 I built 3 years ago and 2 1911 pistols I have built from parts that would have been cheaper to buy out right or off the shelf. I have rebuilt and formed cartridges for 125 year old Swiss rifle. In most cases I will never recover that amount of money I have invested in them. But I have the experience of building or re-building them and in that I can't put a price on that. And I have save them from the junk piles.

As for shooting it loose again I doubt it, I understand about shooting period correct ammo in a gun, and have a working knowledge of metal working and ballistics, rates of twist, and physics.

Not every gun has to roar to get the job done. You use the right gun and the right cartridge for the right job.

 

I suspect he is not doing this with the anticipation of then selling the gun for a profit but rather for the enjoyment and satisfaction that results. I've been guilty of the same sort of thing.

Dano440, I not sure what you mean when you say the the receiver and trigger groups are loose and the receiver has elongated holes. The receiver has only one external hole in it (discounting the two small holes for mounting a tang sight) and that is the one in which the take down screw and it's threaded bushing go. Are you referring to the fact that many of these older guns...when the two halves are assembled together via the take downs screw - that is the trigger group and receiver are assembled together, have a loose fit? If so, I have fixed a number of those and can give you the fix.

 

Are you referring to the fact that many of these older guns...when the two halves are assembled together via the take downs screw - that is the trigger group and receiver are assembled together, have a loose fit? If so, I have fixed a number of those and can give you the fix.

I'd be interested in hearing about this fix. I have a 12C that is loose like that.

 

Dano, I saw your response after posting the above procedure as requested by Provincial. Following that procedure may go a long way towards solving your problem. But if there is a lot of wear at the back on those pins and the holes they go in, you may need to do something else. You may also need to replace the threaded bushing for the take down screw...can't say for sure.

I think (emphasis on the word "think" as my memory is suspect) that I tightened an old gun at the back one time by taking a very sharp pointed punch and peening around the hole into the which each pin goes. If so, I had to go carefully and a little bit at at time. Don't want to do anything that will show after the gun is assembled. I think those pins are hardened, so trying to peen the ends of them to slightly enlarge them may not work. I suppose, at least theoretically, that you could pull those pins and replace them with slightly larger pins that fit the holes snugly. The entire problem is from slop that has developed due to wear between mating areas of the receiver and trigger group.

I think I would solve this problem before finishing the gun in case any dings, dents, or scratches resulting from your efforts to tighten things up needed to be repaired.

Good luck.

 

Dano, I saw your response after posting the above procedure as requested by Provincial. Following that procedure may go a long way towards solving your problem. But if there is a lot of wear at the back on those pins and the holes they go in, you may need to do something else. You may also need to replace the threaded bushing for the take down screw...can't say for sure.

I think (emphasis on the word "think" as my memory is suspect) that I tightened an old gun at the back one time by taking a very sharp pointed punch and peening around the hole into the which each pin goes. If so, I had to go carefully and a little bit at at time. Don't want to do anything that will show after the gun is assembled. I think those pins are hardened, so trying to peen the ends of them to slightly enlarge them may not work. I suppose, at least theoretically, that you could pull those pins and replace them with slightly larger pins that fit the holes snugly. The entire problem is from slop that has developed due to wear between mating areas of the receiver and trigger group.

I think I would solve this problem before finishing the gun in case any dings, dents, or scratches resulting from your efforts to tighten things up needed to be repaired.

Good luck.

I was considering to try peening the pin holes from inside of the receiver to hide the marks. I was not sure if I did that with metal that was that old and that soft if it would be only a temporary fix. I am glad that someone else was thinking that way also. I didn't want to try and re-invent the wheel here, if someone had already figured out a better way.

 

Dano,

I understand your thought process and applaud you for it. It is your money, time and effort, so just do it.

Please send pictures as you make progress on thet fine rifle! I am in your corner.

 

I too understand resurrecting something that ends up not being too cost effective. But it's hard to put a price on the entertainment and satisfaction one gets in doing that.

My "fix" was designed to take the play out of guns that had a small amount of play in them....badly worn guns with lots of looseness may require more inventive cures.

Good luck.

 

I think if things permit I will turn down a hammer bushing a little over-sized for it and hopefully my take down screw will show up by this weekend and test my theory. It would be nice if that cures it, and maybe peen those holes from the inside. the tung in the front seems to be okay.

My current goal is to have it all the parts and fitted and install and test fired and be ready for the bluing tank by the end of the month of March. But I don't always make my deadlines.

I will try and take some pictures of it later this week.

I don't think model 12's or 12-A's had octagon barrel??? if from what I have read the first was the model B and it was 22 short's only then the model C I think could have round or octagon???

So this rifle is not going to be correct with a octagon barrel on a Model 12 but it came along on the deal. another oddity will be that its not really 22" and not 24" its somewhere in-between and only has one place magazine band which I don't have. if what I have read online they should have had 2 magazine bands and the barrel should be 24" long. So historically correct it will not be.

 

The first guns were offered in 1909. The gallery version of this gun is the 12B...shorts only with a 24" octagon barrel. The 12A has the round 22" barrel. The 12C has the 24" octagon barrel and was chambered for S,L, & LR. There was a 12C N.R.A that had special sights but was otherwise like the regular 12C. The 12B and 12C N.R.A. command premiums in price.

All round barrels had one magazine hanger....the octagon barrels had two hangers. Numrichs made some after market barrels fairly recently...that may be what you have. I seem to recall that those barrels had only one dove tail for a single hanger...but my memory could be defective there. If you post some pics of the barrel and it's markings, it can be identified.

Most of the 12A guns had a straight stock with composition butt plates. The 12C guns mostly had pistol grip stocks...some had straight butt stocks...but all pretty much had metal butt plates.

 

here is a couple of pictures

I am not very good at this pictures taking part and posting them. I hope you and see the gap on the receiver also got a question about muzzle crown do they look like this one

the marking on the barrel says "Numrich Arms" "Rem 12 22LR"

note butt stock it cracked and been repaired and nailed too.

 

Yup....barrel from Numrichs. I have seen those around, but have never heard anyone say how they shoot.

I can see the gap...now that I think about it, I recall seeing a gun that had that much wear. Are the holes for the pins worn, or the pins, or both?

Looking forward to seeing the results of your restoration. :bthumb:

 

Yup....barrel from Numrichs. I have seen those around, but have never heard anyone say how they shoot.

I can see the gap...now that I think about it, I recall seeing a gun that had that much wear. Are the holes for the pins worn, or the pins, or both?

Looking forward to seeing the results of your restoration. :bthumb:

I would have to say yes on the pins but I would have to put the calipers on them to confirm that for sure.

 

pump .22s, thank you for your wisdom! I'll be working on my 12C soon.

 

Don't know about wisdom....but I have gained a little knowledge from tinkering around with these old guns...

studying it some last night looking at the tung on the front of the trigger group and holding the bottom part up tightly there still appears to be a gap in the back.
Now I am wondering if maybe the trigger group might be bent a little.
the new theory is the butt stock has been broken at some time and it might have been bent some when that happened so tonight I will strip it down and test that theory out a bit

If you could get your hands on another model 12 just long enough to see how the trigger group mates up with your receiver, you could most likely answer a lot of your questions. Should you finally decide your trigger group is defective, let me know as I might have an extra around here some where. Alternatively, I see them on Ebay pretty frequently...with and without the internals.

 

studying it some last night looking at the tung on the front of the trigger group and holding the bottom part up tightly there still appears to be a gap in the back.
Now I am wondering if maybe the trigger group might be bent a little.
the new theory is the butt stock has been broken at some time and it might have been bent some when that happened so tonight I will strip it down and test that theory out a bit

 

Dropping the gun and hitting the ground hard enough to break the stock could spring the metal in the receiver or trigger group enough to cause mating issues between the two.

His should match up well enough with yours to give you an idea of where the problem is.

 

Dropping the gun and hitting the ground hard enough to break the stock could spring the metal in the receiver or trigger group enough to cause mating issues between the two.

His should match up well enough with yours to give you an idea of where the problem is.

that is what I am thinking, I hope to catch up with him this weekend maybe

do you have any ideas where a person might find the bushing for the take down screw, from what I understand they are press fit-in.

the threaded one should be fairly easy to make, the other one??? not so easy.

also I peened the tongue a little and tighten up the front of the trigger group, now there is a fairly even line across the bottom but still a gap on the back of the receiver

 

Some of these places might be able to help:

http://gungaragegunparts.com/

http://www.jackfirstgun.com/

http://dickwilliamsgunshop.com/

http://www.gun-parts.com/index.html/

http://www.poppertsgunparts.com/index.htm

http://www.outbackgunparts.com/

http://www.ahlmans.com/

http://www.wisnersinc.com/

Not listed in any particular order of relevance.

And of course, keep an eye on Gunbroker and EBay.

 

thanks
I think I found some from your links

 

well my cousin made it over and we checked his against mine my receiver fit his trigger group better than his did, I think he was a little jealous. his is a model 12-A according to the barrel. His is like mine the only marking on the receiver is the serial number and RW, there is no model number nor Remington logo. on the trigger group hand the UMC logo.

His barrel had the Remington logo and the model and caliber on it and his trigger group had the UMC logo but his receiver was bare of all other marks like mine, so the question is did they wear away or did then never have anything on the sides???

 

Not sure if I understand everything you are asking, but this may help....

The model was stamped on the barrel (12A, 12C, etc) up until a certain point then they started stamping that information as well as the serial number on the left side of the receiver. So depending on when the gun was made you will find the serial number and model on the side of the receiver (later models) or the model on the barrel and the serial number on the bottom of the receiver.

RW stands for Remington Works I think.

Your Numrich barrel does not follow this pattern of course and will not have the Remington logo if I recall correctly.

 

Not sure if I understand everything you are asking, but this may help....

The model was stamped on the barrel (12A, 12C, etc) up until a certain point then they started stamping that information as well as the serial number on the left side of the receiver. So depending on when the gun was made you will find the serial number and model on the side of the receiver (later models) or the model on the barrel and the serial number on the bottom of the receiver.

RW stands for Remington Works I think.

Your Numrich barrel does not follow this pattern of course and will not have the Remington logo if I recall correctly.

My receiver has no markings on it except for the serial number & the RW on the bottom of the receiver by were the action bar goes through.

my cousin's is the same way except he has a original barrel and it says Remington Model 12 and 22 cal S, L ,LR then Person pat ####### 1909 - 1912. his bore not the prettiest thing I have ever seen but it shoots pretty good, the parts inside look almost new very little wear. it's bluing is just about all gone it might end up in the bluing tank when I do mine. other than the bluing wear and cracked butt plate and ding marks in the wood it's in really good condition considering it's history.

 

Dan....parts you mentioned needing will be mailed today....no charge, just pay it forward to someone else at some point. :bthumb:

Let us know how it all works out. :bthumb:

 

Thank you very much
Dan Shields

I will try and take some pictures as the project goes along, some times I forget when I get started on things the late wish I took some pictures. at the moment I am in a holding pattern waiting on assorted packages to arrive for this project.

So I have been helping out a friend with some of his projects this weekend. using electrolysis to remove rust from old rifle parts. One was 1869/71 Swiss Vetterli rifle, one was 1871 43 dutch Beaumont rifle, and the last one was 1854 Springfield musket (Harper's ferry pattern musket M1842) I wished I had took pictures before I started, they will go in to bluing when the Remington does there will be parts hanging everywhere in a couple of weeks.

 

Sounds good...your parts are in the mail.

 

I got my magazine tube band for the barrel today and new extract and carrier dog and carrier dog spring. Now I am waiting on the breach block / bolt to get here and the new firing pin. and the fitting will begin.

 

Dan....send me an email address, and I will send you some schematics/patent drawings, etc. on the model 12 if you would like to have them.

 

I sent you my e-mail address.


on the action bars there seems to be two type a straight and "L" type is that makes the different style of carriers cut-outs?

from what I am studying from various parts diagram.

 

I sent you my e-mail address.

on the action bars there seems to be two type a straight and "L" type is that makes the different style of carriers cut-outs?

from what I am studying from various parts diagram.

I'm aware of the differences but not sure about of the relationship between the carrier dogs and the carriers. I know I tried that trigger group that I am sending you parts form in one of my guns and it would not work with it, but would work with another gun...I chalked it up to slight differences in carrier/carrier dog design.

But that is speculation and beyond that is more of the same.

Glad the drawings/diagrams help. Nothing like having useful information.

 

I just got the diagrams and drawings, now things are starting to make sense

 

the one titled "Rem mod 12 improved locking mech" shined the light on a lot of things now. Now that I have seen this drawing I have seen what the problem is and was on some of the ones in the past that I could have had but walked away from. Heck I could have had one a long time ago if I had only been a little more enlightened.

thanks for the info

Dan

 

Most happy to have helped out. :bthumb:

 

part are trickling in

it's almost like Christmas this week, new packages keep showing up.

Friday new carrier.

Saturday the used Action bar showed up and got cleaned up and blued, along with some of the other small parts at are getting re-used.

Monday new carrier dog and spring, along with the new extractor and new magazine tube band/ring.

Tuesday new breach bock, new firing pin, new magazine outer tube, new cartridge retainer, and new forearm screws and new take-down screw.

Wednesday good used trigger group frame, hammer bushing and trigger spring cap.

Now I am waiting on threaded receiver bushing, close but yet so far from the goal line. last night got the breach block assembly put together and got the new barrel installed.

 

I started fitting things together last night ran in to a problem with the cartridge retainer. apparently they use the ramped style one for octagon barrels and I had the flat one.