How bout doing some 10X...its towards your end game no?

 

This oughta get good quickly! MKnarr did a great write up on this.

 

There are several ways to sort rimfire ammo. It's often sorted by rim thickness and even by overall weight. More determined sorters have graded by base-to-ogive length and/or by concentricity.

Sorting advocates believe that low to mid-level ammo can be culled by dimensional characteristics to improve accuracy -- an effort to get better performance from less expensive ammo. No doubt some shooters sort more expensive .22LR match ammo in an effort to improve performance.

Without getting into the cost increase of using culled ammo, are there many serious competitors who bother with sorting ammo rather than using the best unsorted lot tested ammo?

 

Great question -- it was this article that started me to thinking about it a few years back http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ooter.com/2013/02/g3-rimfire-rim-thickness-tool-and-base-to-ogive-length-gauge/

 

You may have already seen this, Stowaway posted some great images of other things not normally considered when sorting ammo. Notice those out of "round" non concentric rim crimps will make sorting with a rim depth gauge lie.

Also the bullet crimped non concentric will give you fits.

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/22-lr-bullet-sorting.4012117/page-3

 

Kudos to you Mr. Revolver Guy/L3G for making reviews and being an Ambassador to such a passionate community. Do you have any BX-15 magazines that you could use in the ranger. I would be concerned that the feed issues have skewed the results. Just an observation please.

Leej

 

Only the brand new clear magazines gave me fits the black ones no problem and they all are ruger OEM. Now to your question I do have 1 BX25 but think it is to long for the bench.

 

Down the rabbit hole again are we!
Rim sort, weight sort, OAL sort, ogive sort, drive belt sort, concentricity sort AND we still then need to test each batch with every match chamber made because we may find one chamber type like a certain type of sort that the other won't shoot the side of a barn with.

I'm not poopoo your idea, in fact I love this stuff and just wish it would be more of a complete testing as I listed about, I wasn't joking of them sorts but is there enough time to do it all perfect and report the results? The real question will you be using a "fixed" fixture to make sure it's not the loose nut behind the trigger?

Love your reports! I want to thank everybody for keeping me informed and entertained in these winter months!

 

MKnarr

Thank you for the data and awesome report. I am not trying to change your mind at all. Sometimes it is about scratching your own itch and I do have a chronograph.

 

In my opinion the most important aspect of rimfire accuracy is one you cannot sort for: priming compound variation, whether it's the quality of the compound itself, the amount installed into the cartridge or the positioning and distribution of priming.

 

I heard from Al that:

if you keep the ammo at a constant 54.67 degrees F

at 71.75% humidity,

spin the cartridge 3 times after you chamber it,

and shoot in a generally southerly direction to maximize the Coriolis effect on the bullet,

then measure the height of the berm on the SW side of the shooting range

and and and


That's the only way it works.

 

I heard from Al that:

if you keep the ammo at a constant 54.67 degrees F

at 71.75% humidity,

spin the cartridge 3 times after you chamber it,

and shoot in a generally southerly direction to maximize the Coriolis effect on the bullet,

then measure the height of the berm on the SW side of the shooting range

and and and

That's the only way it works.

:yeahthat: PLUS you have to have on your lucky socks! I never won a match on the AF Security Service team without my lucky socks!

 

Made in Murica.
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=239833&stc=1&d=1609216747

 

Hey, thank you for compiling all of this for us. I know it was a ton of work. This is a hobby we are in and this is definitely hobbies level stuff. I’ve got a rim gauge too and I tried this to a good level and felt like it helped. It’s a lot of work though. I thought it helped cheaper ammo the most.

 

I would start with cleaning your rifle with a one piece cleaning rod, and bore guide instead of the Otis system. If you really want to deep clean your rifle I would use IOSSO or JB Bore paste which will remove all fouling and any lead that is in the barrel.

Years ago I used to sort .22 match ammunition via weighing as at the time I could only afford to purchase less than a case so it was my quality control tool. It takes time and while if does seem to produce some results, I don't believe it is worth the effort. You are much better off lot testing as the results from a "good or excellent" lot to a "mediocre or bad" lot are pretty much instantaneous down range.

One way to validate your weighing efforts would be to find the brand and lot that works best out of one of your rifles and then send the barreled action to Eley or Lapua. I would include your best lot as the control lot to see if Eley or Lapua are able to exceed what you did with your weighing efforts. My belief is that their ammunition without any sorting will exceed what you did on your own as they have a much wider assortment of lots to test from.

With rare exceptions you get what you pay for with rimfire match ammunition and the only way to get what works best for someone's price range / goals is to test as much as possible.

Bill

 

There's another significant thing that cannot be sorted away, and that's bullet quality. Eley makes their own lead alloy wire in an oxygen free atmosphere to insure metal purity and keep oxidation at bay. On their best ammo the bullet bases are individually inspected; not sure whether they do that for the other bullets in less expensive rounds. Since you can't see the bases of bullets in the rounds that you buy and can't know about the quality of the materials in that bullet, no sorting regimen is going to enable separating the good from the not so good. You CAN visually inspect cartridges looking for obviously damaged bullets, plus your eyes can tell you a lot about overall quality: if it looks like crap, it is.

 

Precision quality isn't cheap, and you do get what you pay for. $5.00 a box CCI ammo will never even approach the quality of $20 a box Eley, no matter what kind of voodoo is tried to make it so.

There's also the intended end usage of the product versus price. Blowing up drink cans at 20 feet would be an utter waste of something like Tenex when Thunderduds would suffice, Tenex wouldn't be an appropriate round to kill a coyote and CCI Standard Velocity is not going to win at benchrest competition. Mostly simple economics.

 

How many times has all this been proven over and over here? Want good ammo buy good ammo.

The only thing I have ever seen improve the accuracy of cheap ammo was when we played with lubing the bullets but even this was not worth the effort in the long run. Improvement was very small, but measurable, over the average of many rounds. In the end all of us that did it gave up on it.

 

L3G, which tool/device are you using to measure?

 

Rimfire Team,

I knew this would be a little controversial but I really did not intend for it to be what seems so irritating for some.

Roast me if you would like, but I say this with all humility.

For me -- many others have asked me this question. I wanted to see with limited testing if there would be any different results I may find AND HERE is the reason for such. It is about getting others on the range. At least in my circles we are not attracting numbers at an alarming rate.

When you are asked by veterans living on a fixed income that came short of giving their life for this nation, maybe lost a leg or a body full of shrapnel I felt compelled to try. Not only have I given away two caldwell BR rest only to see them be told you should spend your money wisely on better equipment buy once cry once. Given away 500 rounds of ammo a pop, when they didn't even spend those dollars it was given to them. I have to ask are we creating an elite'ish like community?

A vet buddy buddy of mine indicated to me it was almost therapeutic for him to sort. Plus it allowed for him (in his mind) to at least get out and be somewhat competitive without in his words "be all in on the spacewars arms and ammunition race". He has scolded me many times saying we are running more people away from the sport with the buy better ammo answer, buy a better rifle answer, get better gear or contraption answer. His ask of me, are we testing the ability of the gear or our real ability to function as one with your rifle, this really made me think there has to be a different answer which may mean different classes. Which sort of exist today but should we take it further.


Again rimfirecentral I did not mean to strike a nerve.

I just want to continue to do my part to attract as many as I can to ENJOY what we have been blessed with and enjoy.

 

I built my contraption science experiment around

Raven Eye

 

Thanks——gives me a few ideas!!

 

I can fully see your point on changing the normal answer of "buy better whatever" but it truly is one answer once you get to a certain point, you must buy better either to compete or just improve against yourself and move your own goal/bar of standard.

Now that doesn't mean you should always push that as the only correct answer onto others when they ask a question. There are tons of things to learn and improve on yourself before "buy better" is the only way up a step.

I was serious about the listing I would be interested to see you do BUT I don't expect much improvement to show, I was just giving you something to do challenge as long as you were going down that rabbit hole. As for others stomping on your idea, that's just their way of saying done that, been there, nothing more to see move along advice.

It's your time, do what you want, i just mention what I thought were good sets to look into to round it out more. As for bringing others into this, the more the better, it would help you and him/her keep busying and enjoy each other company while doing it, that's great!

Looking a gift horse in the mouth is not good, if you give something just feel good that you can afford to give no matter the real value. Some will appreciate it for what it is but some won't. Don't let it stop you from the enjoyment of giving, those that appreciate it might even pass it forward when they can.

Good Luck and stay positive! :bthumb:

 

Rabbit hole it is

Baby Automag I understood and thought those were great questions you asked in your previous post.

I did not take to offense anyone's recommendations here at all, as a matter of fact I think it is all great data that has been presented.

Sometimes I think I dream to big. Where I would love to see 18, 19 year old living on mom and dads income be able to come out and enjoy, 60 to 90 year olds come out and regain some of that experience they had in their youth. Heck all of us come together with the same mission of creating an environment of excitement and joy as it pertains to 22 shooting or competition.

Always positive thank you all for the helpful insight.

 

Layer 3,

I have been shooting rimfire prone and position for 40+ years and there isn't anything about the hobby that is geared towards being elite. Since the 1920s It has always been a game about:

- Equipment - Whether factory, aftermarket or home made someone always has the best that is available. Who that someone is varies greatly over time and it isn't always solely about money. Some of my Winchester 52 custom prone rifles will shoot as well as my Grunig & Elimiger and Anschutz barreled actions so money and the manufacturer isn't always all that it is cracked up to be.

- Ammunition - If you went back in time the rimfire game has always been about seeking out the best ammunition. Whether tested from the shoulder or at the factory (Winchester, Remington, Peters) or at a test center (Eley, Lapua) those with the best ammunition for their rifle stand a better chance of success. I have shot 1600s with and 3200 scores with Eley Match (Black) however I tested it extensively before I purchased it.

Regardless of someone's personal situation the importance of the best equipment and ammunition a person can obtain will never cease. I have also shot alot of competitive highpower and that game is also based on equipment and ammunition so rimfire is not unique amount the precision shooting sports.

Regarding your commentary on attracting new shooters and having different generations on the firing line then my recommendation would be to stop shooting from a bench and start shooting from a sling. If you were to attend a well known prone match you would see a wide variety of shooters from juniors in their early teens to shooters who can range in age into their 80s. Both can be very competitive and an excellent example of this was the late Joe Farmer of Colorado who made the Dewar Team at the NRA National Matches well into his 80s (The Dewar Team is an International Postal Match which consists of 20 shooters and two alternates and this match dates back to the 1920s). I have shot indoor prone matches with someone as old as 99.

If someone wants to sort ammunition and they believe it helps their cause then more power to them. If asked I would tell them I have done it and over time I learned that it was better to test many lots than focus their efforts on a single lot. Purchasing a single lot without any testing and then weighing is more luck of the draw than anything else.

Precision smallbore in the US really started at the 1919 National Matches so there is 100 years of lessons learned and one of them is that there isn't any shortcut to finding the best ammunition for one's rifle. The only alternative is to create a match where either the cost or grade of ammunition is limited. This might be fun for some, however I know that I wouldn't participate as it wouldn't enable me to see what me and my equipment were capable of doing.

Going out and blind purchasing Eley Tenex, Lapua Midas + or R-50 will not necessarily lead to the results people are seeking even if they weigh each brand. On the other hand, testing multiple lots of Eley Team, Lapua Center-X, or RWS Rifle match may lead to the results people are seeking and allow them to stay within their budget. Getting quality rimfire match ammunition takes time, effort and a degree of money.

Bill

 

So, I see it like this.

Question:
"Does sorting ammo by rim thickness (regardless of the 'quality' of the measuring device) provide any improvement in accuracy?"

Answer: "No"

Mknarr (bless his heart) has the patience of a saint and points out the why (it doesn't work) and such, but people still come back with, "yeah but"...

I've never been bitten by a rattlesnake however I need zero convincing that it will hurt, regardless of the data on dry bites and and and.

Raven Eye custom is $80(ish) richer, that's all that's happened. We call them "Ford Pilots" despite the facts, they have a better idea.

Measure away!

 

Glad I got mine years ago before they went up on the price.

 

And still, it makes no difference. Hope you have your caliper calibrated. The ones in the shop go every year. Without calibration, how do you know they are correct? Sheesh isn't that a level 3 mess? Doing a pointless task with an out of spec tool! Sweet!