Possibly at long range with a longer barrel. What range do you intend to shoot it at?

 

Something to consider regarding different twist rates for .22LR.

When using good ammo, if one barrel -- say a 16" twist -- shoots better at 100 yards than another barrel -- say 12" twist -- what, if anything, would cause rounds from the first to perform less well at further distances than the second?

In other words, what reasons would explain why the 16" twist barrel wouldn't continue to outperform the 12" twist barrel?

In the example referred to above, would bullets flying downrange from a 16" twist barrel, having achieved better performance as they reached 100, begin to degrade in accuracy more quickly than the faster twist bullets, which performed less well at the 100 yard mark of flight?

Similarly, would bullets flying downrange from a 12" twist barrel, having performed less well at 100 than their 16" twist counterparts, begin to "sober up" once past the 100 yard mark and fly truer?

____________________________


The practical information to answer this question seems largely anecdotal and unreliable (the "I shot some groups at 300 with my faster twist barrel and they were better than those with my 16 twist" kind).

Reliable answers should be based on several important considerations.

One of them is that when shooting outdoors, the conditions play a considerable role. Unless wind is accounted for by effective and excellent reading of wind flags -- or the shooting is in the complete absence of wind (which is all the more difficult as distance increases) -- results at long range are likely to be less than reliable.

A second is that sufficient information is gathered to make a reliable comparison. It's not enough to shoot a few groups from each barrel and draw a conclusion. Many groups are needed for a comparison to be statistically valid.

 

Twist rate correlates to bullet weight. Longer, heavier bullets require a faster twist to stabilize. In the varmint bullet world, a heavy bullet with insufficient spin will not stabilize and will tumble. Usually, bullets will tolerate slightly excessive spin rather than vice versa. I have seen very light bullets fly apart upon leaving the muzzle if over spun at a very high velocity.

In the rimfire world, I highly doubt that would ever be a concern. To specifically answer your question, if you plan on shooting the heavier bullets, a 12” twist may offer better accuracy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Does anyone even make quality heavier 22 ammo? Al wondered to himself thinking of so-so 60grn Stingers.

 

There is a reason the top barrel /rifle makers in the industry adopted 1:16 years ago. IMHO, the 1:12 is going to be a tool for very specialized in use (which most of us won't utilize). I'd be interested to see how a 36 gr bullet shoots out of a 1:12 twist. My bet is not so good.

 

1:12 supposedly better for 40 graiin

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...firecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451901&usg=AOvVaw1N1yC45uUWPsdhhCCAHUUu

What's wrong with your MTR Barrel?

 

1:12 supposedly better for 40 graiin

What's the evidence for the supposition?

 

International Barrels..

Is showing a 1:12 22lr Rimfire barrel for the CZ455/457. Interesting!

 

The 1 in 16 twist works well for the standard weights of the 22 long rifle and its family.
The 1 in 12 is for the .17 HMR and Mach II rounds I believe.
Talk to barrel makers to see why the twist are what they are!

 

Why who would have ever guessed that there might be some disagreement among us...

 

What evidence is there that 16 twist is the best?

Just because it's always been that way is not evidence.

And data within the last 20 years is a plus. Quoting some book from the 1950's where they used ammo made in the 1950's is not relevant.

 

I coresponded with a tech at IBI over this. He claimed the 1:12 would be a better choice at longer distances over 150 yards . For less than 150, he claimed 1:16 gave slightly better results.

 

First , i did use the word " supposedly " which to me is indicative of doubt.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sup...VCgDVjwMmCUNmgBcAB4AIABxweIAfcQkgEJNS4xLjUtMS4xmAEAoAEBsAEKuAED&sclient=gws-wiz

All i was saying is , some guys once said ……, which is a fact, Personally i dont think a faster twist rate is needed , but i dont think it would be deleterious either. Maybe its for sub zero Arctic shooting.

Would , i buy one. Probably not. But I wouldn't be replacing a MTR barrel either.

If i needed better groups, id buy better ammo. And tweak the mtr until i was sure i could not improve it anymore. If still un happy, id buy an Anschutz, or a Voodoo or a custom bench gun.

 

Indeed. That someone said something is in itself a fact. Whether what he said was factual is another matter.

With regard to the point about replacing a factory MTR barrel with a faster twist barrel, I agree with you. If the barrel wasn't producing desired results, the first step, as you note, is to try better ammo.

Too often shooters who are disatisfied with rifle/ammo performance assume that ammos, even "match" ammos, are much more uniform in performance than they are in practice. Regardless of the make of rifle/barrel, no rifle/barrel will outshoot the ammo its given.

With regard to the point that faster twist barrels may not be deletorious or harmful to accuracy, you may very well be correct. The important thing is to have reliable evidence to answer the question one way or the other.

The question remains -- do we have or can we get sound and well-founded information? Obtaining it isn't always straightforward.

Even in controllable conditions such as ammo testing facilities, how can the results between standard and faster twist barrels be best compared? Any comparison may always be one of apples to oranges because there may never be one rifle/barrel/ammo -- for either standard or faster twist -- that represents the apogee or highest standard of accuracy.

Perhaps at 100 meters in testing tunnels all that can be done to compare standard and faster twist performance is to compare aggregate results of many good rifles/barrels/twists with suitable ammo. Will one have better total average results than the other?

Once outdoors at longer distances in uncontrolled conditions, where even slight movements of air masses between shooter and target impair results, comparing results may prove to be too challenging for reliability.

In short, the answer to the above question is not as clear cut as some might prefer.

 

Lilja shows 1 in 9",15",16" and 17"
I'm somewhat following some folks that are playing with the 1:9 but I'm not about to get in the middle of this one!
It's a shame you can't have a decent conversation about the possibility of a new direction the industry is considering.
I wish you well in your search.

PS I know this has nothing to do with you question but I'll throw it out there anyway.
I've recently received a Lilja 1:16 three groove to play with and it's been great so far.
My MTR barrel is approaching 20,000 rounds and averages in the very low .3s" at 50y with SK Long Range Match.
I've only had the Lilja out three times but with the same SK ammo it's averaging
in the low .2s" with not so good of weather.
Good luck on your hunt

 

Grandma, the church gossip, once told me, believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.

How bout 1/14 twist, splitting the difference? Al wondered to himself.

 

Grandma, the church gossip, once told me, believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.

How bout 1/14 twist, splitting the difference? Al wondered to himself.

Brilliant idea, Al. That should make everyone happy. Just wish that I woulda thought of it first...

 

My understanding at the moment:

The faster twist is a byproduct of experimenting at long range. As in 200+ yards. If you don't shoot farther than 100, it has no benefit and potential detriment since spinning something unbalanced faster is probably bad.

Mike Bush of Vudoo claims 1:9 is awesome, but won't show data. But I stopped reading the vudoo threads on the Hide many months back. So maybe he has.

A few others on the Hide that have experimented with 1:9 say it's quite variable. When it's good it's good, when it's bad, it's really bad.

A youtuber who appears to be very data driven has experimented with 1:12 says it's of no benefit under 200, but has benefits beyond 300 (ELR). But I have not heard him mention a number. His general opinion is don't bother with faster twist unless ELR is the focus.

I've also seen a vid where the owner of IBI says there might be some benefit to 1:12. The previous youtuber and IBI are working together.

I played around with the berger stability calculator and it shows that the typical 1100fps 40grain bullet is only marginally stable, and all it would take is going to 1:14 to be stable.

This is the interwebs, so don't believe me.

 

My understanding at the moment:

The faster twist is a byproduct of experimenting at long range. As in 200+ yards. If you don't shoot farther than 100, it has no benefit and potential detriment since spinning something unbalanced faster is probably bad.

Mike Bush of Vudoo claims 1:9 is awesome, but won't show data. But I stopped reading the vudoo threads on the Hide many months back. So maybe he has.

A few others on the Hide that have experimented with 1:9 say it's quite variable. When it's good it's good, when it's bad, it's really bad.

This is the interwebs, so don't believe me.

perhaps it would pay to note, that after mike was talking about the fast twist vudoo's on the hide, he started advising people not to contact VGW asking to swap out their standard barrels for a faster twist stating that almost always what they had already ordered would be more likely optimum for their needs.

the improvement for the fast twist is apparently linked to "getting more out of the BC of the bullet" for use at extended ranges and (my opinion) quite likeley come at a cost in short range performance.

case in point (note, not twist related, but...) - in my CZ455 (16.5in carbon sleeved 16twist bbl) SK rifle match is the best performing ammunition I've found for 50 meter and shorter range use (one hole groups if shot from the bench) but for whatever reason the group size starts to fall apart at about 70 meters and by 100 it wont reliably hit a basketball...... otoh, SK long range match the group size at 50 is about .9moa, at 100 its about a moa, 200 maybe 1.25moa so a vast improvement at long range vs a slight disadvantage at short range - but I cannot begin to explain "WHY"... and I think that this is currently where VGW is at, they are experimenting with what twist rates work best for their purposes and still going through variations of twist, barrel length, ammo selection etc and its not yet at the point where spruiking it and selling to paying customers might be a good buisiness decision but they do have a few demo guns out there in the competition circuit and sponsored shooters to show how good it can be - my take from their postings is that it shows lots of promise, but watch this space.

 

Remember the progressive twist Bbl's? That would combine both [emoji106][emoji106]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Another thread proclaimed redundant by Mr. Penage. :bthumb:

 

 

1-12" is going to be a bit fast for standard projectiles IMO. Some biathlon rifles have 1-14" twist since they are used in winter and the amount of spin necessary to stabilize a bullet increases directly proportional to air density.

 

Hi Guys
Thank you very much for all your replies. The main reason for the new barrel, is that I’m setting up this rifle for PRS. The more I think about it, the more I’m leaning towards the slower 1:16” twist. It is quite interesting that manufactures make faster and slower twist rates. For me I’m going with 1:16” twist, since that is the norm, and I think this will be more consistent with the 40 grain SK Long Range ammo, I’m planning to shoot.

Biagio

 

I'm a big believer in those who candidly relate their experiences to others and who do it on their own dime/time. I'm not bare hunting here, but I do know what I see.

 

Just listened to a couple of "Rimfire Tactical" podcasts with Mike Bush of Vudoo and Michael Shea (long time gun writer) and Bush maintained that 9 twist is awesome. Bush went on to say some things that just might defy physics. Shea also mentioned he has a 9 twist that shoots really well at 100. So how much of that is salesmanship and how much is real is another matter.

 

......The place I am getting the barrel from is International Barrels up here in Canada. Now they offer two twist rates, 1/16" and 1/12".

It would be interesting (at least to all but one of us...) to pick up one of each twist, with the same bbl length, and shoot different ammo at varying distances to see what if any differences there are. With everything being the same but the bbl, would be enlightening (again, to all but one)......

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I firmly believe a 16 twist is just fine for 40 grain bullets.

My reason? I have shot to 300 yards with my 16 twist with no apparent stability problems. I say apparent because they all hit nose first and were consistent in performance.

The following is my experience with a 22lr with a 16 twist barrel at different ranges with preferred brands/lots of ammo that weigh 40 grains and are subsonic:

Groups at 100 yards, outdoors, are around 5/8-3/4" with no wind flags. Some are under 1/2" in good weather.

Groups at 200 yards are ~1.5" without wind flags in average summer weather.

Groups at 300 yards were about 3" (when I was shooting that far). 200 is as far as I would take a hunting shot, depending on the size of the critter and the weather, with a rangefinder being a requirement.

16 twist if just fine for me.....

If you want a fast twist, get one. If you just want to try one, find someone who has one and is willing to let you try it. I don't think a 14 twist would hurt, but I wouldn't want to go any faster than that with 40 gr ammo. I toyed with the idea years ago, but it never made sense.

 

It occurs to me that we have lost focus..... while offering the OP reasonable answers and info, we have sidetracked ourselves by feeding trolls. Trolls exist for such discourse, so we are responsible. I think if we stick to discussing the original question and not entertain provocations from trolls, we’ll be better off for it. He’s become a bore.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

It occurs to me that we have lost focus..... while offering the OP reasonable answers and info, we have sidetracked ourselves by feeding trolls. Trolls exist for such discourse, so we are responsible. I think if we stick to discussing the original question and not entertain provocations from trolls, we'll be better off for it. He's become a bore.....

When a poster is reduced to name calling, it may be time for him to withdraw from the discussion.

 

Hi guys
I have a 457 Mtr that I am going to get a new barrel for. The place I am getting the barrel from is International Barrels up here in Canada. Now they offer two twist rates, 1/16" and 1/12".
I know 1/16" is the more common twist rate, but will a faster twist rate give you more accuracy?
If you have a clue, please leave your comments below.

Thank you very much

Biagio :gun4::Blasting_:gun4::Blasting_

Your friends at IBI make some fantastic barrels in the 20 inch length with a 16 twist. Their chambers and the barrel bores are second to none. Mounting is simple just make certain you have them torqued in properly. The same goes for the screws in the action to the stock.

The real question is if the barrels will fit the barrel groove on your rifle.

https://internationalbarrels.com/product-category/drop-in-22rf-barrels/