Very nice shooting!:bthumb:

 

I'd say all Clark barrels are not defective, especially older ones.

I'd say that 99.9999% of Clark barrels are outstanding and well worth the money.

The posts about the defective Clark barrel are highly suspect at best.
We don't know all the facts.

Even if that one incident is true, it is the exception and not the rule.

 

If you followed the post, the facts are pretty clear. The barrel was still accurate as it met Clark's accuracy spec. The travesty is not for the barrel owner but for Clark itself. They left a documented with pictures barrel with an obvious indication of poor workmanship and quality control out in the world. Now everyone who reads that post will wonder if that was a one off or the norm.

I just wanted to make it clear that Clark barrels shoot very well indeed or at least mine does. Mine is several years old and who knows about ones bought today???? Even though mine shoots well I would not buy another until I at least bore scoped my barrel to see if the norm is the bad machining.

LDBennett

 

You folks do know that Clark doesn't make these barrels and never has from the Shreveport era until now. They profile them , chamber and crown and any other machining necessary but the bore and rifling can be Shilen or any other quality barrel maker that has changed constantly over the years. Some better than others.

 

Yes, they start from a huge barrel blank and machine it down the outside so that the barrel is all one piece. Whoever sells them the barrel blank is responsible for the bore.

But the barrel in the previous post did not have a problem with the external machining or the bore. The problem appeared to be in the chambering which Clark does do, I assume (??).

LDBennett

 

Cool and great shooting. Thanks for sharing as well. However since I'm a complete newbie at this do you have any with any S&W barrels?

 

Great shooting! I have a 5 inch (or 5.5?) Clark barrel for my Model 41. My results are similar to yours, LD.

Couldn't be happier. I was cleaning my Model 41 on Monday and wondering whether to put back on the 7-inch factory barrel. Maybe just a few more rounds with this one first. . .

 

So do you notice a big difference with regards to accuracy between the two?

 

The only reason I got the Clark barrel is to mount a red dot on the gun as the 7 inch S&W barrel is not drilled and tapped for a scope rail. The gun is circa 1993.

If you want to see how shaky you really are just mount a red dot. You never see that shakiness with open sights. The end result is everyone shoots better with a red dot.

As a rough comparison with the the gun fully supported, I recollect the accuracy is as good or better with the Clark barrel. The barrel starts out as a Match barrel or it did when I bought mine several years back. They use to advertise whose blank it was but I no longer see that exposed in their latest web page (or did I miss it ???).

If you could not figure out if I liked the Clark barreled/Model 41 I really do like it. I have many good match grade 22LR pistols and the Model 41 is near the top of the list.

LDBennett

 

Clark, just like Kidd, gets their rifled barrel blanks from Lothar Walther out of Germany.

 

My recollection (and it may well be wrong!!) was at the time a couple years back when I bought my Clark barrel, was that the blanks were Shilen and they advertised that. Am I wrong or did they change?

I have a Lothar/Walther barrel on my varmintized AR 15 and it is excellent.

Do the original family still own Clarks? Have there been any major changes in the last few years? Just wondering.

LDBennett

 

The last time I saw Wade of Shilen (he being head man) I just happened to have a Clark 41 barrel in the car and showed it to him. He had never seen the finished product. That was last August if I remember correctly, and yes Shilen was supplying the blanks at that time. As far as I know they still are. bob

 

I guess my old age memory is not all that bad! RE: Shilen vs. Lothar Walther

LDBennett

 

From Clark's website.

About our Barrels
GUARANTEED TO SHOOT 1 M.O.A. (Minute of Angle)! All Clark barrels are machined from Lothar-Walther premium grade blanks to our specified dimensions and are chambered with our EXCLUSIVE reamer. A recessed match target crown is added to make the Clark match barrel a supremely accurate, dependable shooter. Barrels are available with .920″ round (bull), fluted or .720″ midweight configurations and come in blue or stainless steel.

Machined from Walther premium grade blank
Clark match chamber and recessed match crown
Heavy barrels .920″ OD, Midweight .720″ OD
Standard length 21.5″ (will cut down to anything between 21.5″ and 16.25″ at no additional charge)
Available in blue or stainless
Choice of .920″ Round or Fluted, or NEW Midweight (.720″ outside diameter)
Note: DO NOT USE HYPER-VELOCITY AMMO! Doing so will round the engagement surfaces, ruin your trigger job and void our warranty.

 

From Clark's website.

About our Barrels
GUARANTEED TO SHOOT 1 M.O.A. (Minute of Angle)! All Clark barrels are machined from Lothar-Walther premium grade blanks to our specified dimensions and are chambered with our EXCLUSIVE reamer. A recessed match target crown is added to make the Clark match barrel a supremely accurate, dependable shooter. Barrels are available with .920″ round (bull), fluted or .720″ midweight configurations and come in blue or stainless steel.

Machined from Walther premium grade blank
Clark match chamber and recessed match crown
Heavy barrels .920″ OD, Midweight .720″ OD
Standard length 21.5″ (will cut down to anything between 21.5″ and 16.25″ at no additional charge)
Available in blue or stainless
Choice of .920″ Round or Fluted, or NEW Midweight (.720″ outside diameter)
Note: DO NOT USE HYPER-VELOCITY AMMO! Doing so will round the engagement surfaces, ruin your trigger job and void our warranty.

Yes this is true, but the Shilen was for pistol barrels, haven't seen a 41 with a 21" barrel yet but I do shoot with a guy who loves to experiment

 

https://clarkcustomguns.com/custom-gun/ruger-10-22/

 

Clark has been using Lothar Walther rifled blanks for some time now. I remember his son did a video several years ago on YouTube and I am pretty sure he said they used Lothar Walther rifled blanks to make their barrels from.

 

Times change and who know who is the supplier today.

But remember every bit of metal you see in a Clark barre was from the original barrel blank. The barrel blank is huge. Finding a barrel that size might limit their choice of suppliers. It is not exactly a regular barrel size. I find it easier to believe Shilen as the supplier as such custom barrel blanks night be easier to get in the USA than in Germany (???).

The bottom line is whomever made the barrel blank, it was good to start with as the finished product accuracy is stellar, in my opinion.

LDBennett

 

Accuracy?

I've been reading all the answers to questions regarding barrel accuracy but no one mentioned that Bullseye Shooting per NRA is an athletic event involving the shooter.I can relate to this, having shot BE since 1967 when i bought my only m41. The shooter has to be physically trained to compete before pulling the trigger. The gun is merely a tool. At 89 I still enjoy the sport as best I can.Good luck to y'all.

Ted

 

I've been reading all the answers to questions regarding barrel accuracy but no one mentioned that Bullseye Shooting per NRA is an athletic event involving the shooter.I can relate to this, having shot BE since 1967 when i bought my only m41. The shooter has to be physically trained to compete before pulling the trigger. The gun is merely a tool. At 89 I still enjoy the sport as best I can.Good luck to y'all.

Ted

Well put and I'll add once you've trained your body the game becomes equally or even more mental. Over the years I've read about so many mental games and techniques it's confusing but generally necessary at upper levels of competition.

Regards

 

So "Clark" says all barrels are LW but references rifle barrels. Why do they not answer for the M41 pistol barrel in particular?

LDBennett

 

Could be they just got lazy and failed to mention it on the website. Based on what I've gathered from what people say here they're not the greatest when it comes to running a business.

 

Their web site is new from the last time I visited. I note on the Model 41 barrel section they say they are out of stock but you can order. It seems I remember the same situation several years back when I ordered my barrel. The wait was claimed to be up to 60 days but my wait was about 30 days. Apparently they can not keep up with demand and you have to wait for the next batch but have to be on the waiting list to get one. I never like business that operate like that but I understand it is to keep inventories low.

LDBennett

 

Frankly it's been my experience that wait times are pretty hard to calculate and not unusual for a number of things I have ordered. Generally the best I can do with those things is to try to get an idea from someone who has ordered something recently or just be patient. I've just ordered way too many things where this type of thing is normal. Demand drives this and it can be kind of hard to predict. This probably being a small shop they probably have a certain number of employees that can only do so much and when the demand increases the wait just gets longer. Some business update their websites to reflect this but not many.

 

Clark like Kidd use Lothar Walther rifled blanks. So does Majestic Arms who use Lothar Walther rifled steel liners. I would say even more who use steel liners surrounded by aluminum to make their barrels like Tactical Solutions and WhistlePig also use Lothar Walther rifled steel liners. But they probably want that to remain confidential for whatever reasons.

 

But like said Shilen may have made your 41 barrel.

 

Rimfire PIstol Barrel Accuracy

There has been a lot of discussion on rimfire pistol barrel accuracy. In this thread, the question came if if a S&W barrel was as accurate as a Clark barrel.

I will first start out by quoting Gil Hebard in his book, "A Pistol Shooters Treasury".

Mr. Hebard collected a number of rimfire pistols available at the time (1950's or so) and put them in a ransom rest and test fired them for groups. He tested the best american pistols and revolvers, the best european pistols, and a couple of moderately priced starter pistols that a beginner may consider for getting into bullseye competition shooting.

Mr Hebard concluded that while some pistols shot measurably more accurate then other pistols, all the available pistols delivered the accuracy required for bullseye competition. When you spent more on a pistol, you might be purchasing a better trigger, better grips, better sights, reliability, but you definitely were not buying better accuracy.

In summary, Mr. Hebard concluded that all available pistols were accurate.

Personally, I have a number of rimfire handguns, Top of the line free pistols, top of the line bullseye pistols, top of the line rimfire revolvers, and a cheap h&R revolver and two cheap 22 conversion units for a glock and a 1911.

What I have found is that every rimfire pistol barrel is more accurate then I can measure. Specifically, I can shoot with a 2 MOA red dot into 1 1/4 inch at 50 yards with a pistol on a rest with boring consistency. If I got irons, I can shoot into 2 1/4 inch. It might take me a number of shots to figure out the trigger but I have determined that pretty much all rimfire barrels are as accurate as I need them to be.

Make no mistake about it, there are some ammos that do not work with rimfire pistols, Bulk ammo, Aguilla SSS, the 60 grain rimfire LR round, and most high velocity/hiper velocity do not work so good but CCI SV or any one of the european subsonic 22LR rounds work across the board.

Bottom line is that pretty much all rimfire pistol barrels are accurate and any statement that a Clark Barrel is more accurate than S&W barrels would need mountains of data to definitely determine that. Oh there are probably screw ups and ruined barrels but other then that, you really do not need to be concerned about the accuracy of your rimfire pistol barrel.

Regards,
Crankster

 

Accuracy testing, while offering good arguments, really is not all that conclusive. A sample of one gun and a few ammo's proves nothing. You might find a gun/ammo combo that is better than another but that information is only valid for that single gun.

Quality guns and barrels typical are made with more precision. You get better Ergonomics, better triggers, better reliability, and all that may add up to better shooting performance. In this case of the Clark vs. S&W barrels, unless you take a realistic sample size (maybe five or more of each) the testing result may only pertain to the one pair of barrels.

There have been numerous reports here from competitors who use both barrels with excellent results. But the main reason most people buy the Clark barrel is to get the optics mounting not offered on older S&W barrels. So if someone says the Clark barrel offered them better scores then was it the barrel change or the change from open sights to a red dot? At least the Clark barrel does not reduce accuracy and that has been well documented here.

I use to highly recommend the Clark barrel based on mine but the recent situation where Clark did not replace an obviously poorly machined chamber in one of their barrels made me no longer anxious to recommend them. Admittedly the accuracy was not degraded today but will the poor machine eventual affect the accuracy...I don't know (??). It can not be good for Clark to allow that barrel to be reviewed here and the poor workmanship and quality control revealed. So I don't understand their position. The Clark cost to replace this one guy's barrel will be greatly out weighted by doubt created in the minds of many potential buyers. Anyway that is my take and obviously not Clark's take.

LDBennett

 

Rimfire barrel accuracy is a tough one to nail down since 22 ammo is most often a moving target ( no pun intended ) even some of the better Euro stuff. The smart competitors rely on batch or lot numbers. When they find something special they buy a truck load but of course if money is no problem you can reduce the variables with dollars and I'm sure we know the brand names that apply. Still batch numbers are important to the top shooters.

From what I understand regarding the Clark incident, and at distance of third hand or more facts, it sounds as though the firm may have broke the cardinal rule for smallish custom shops and that is the customer is FIRST ALWAYS. Of course there are always exceptions like unreasonable customers or circumstances beyond control. I ran a one man gunsmithing business focused on comp revolvers and misc handguns long enough to know there are some people you cannot satisfy even at no charge. That does not appear to be the case here though.
In another post I offered up some background on Clark not as an excuse but as some insight as to what may be going on down there.

I've Ransom rested so many Bullseye guns years ago that the results are fuzzy by now. For those who don't know who Gil Hebard was and his standing in the handgun competition world I suggest you look into the subject cause I don't have the time. When guys like Hebard suggested a modification to a Smith & Wesson revolver or pistols the brass in Springfield took notice and I'm guessing always responded one way or the other. But as one of their oldest dealers and chief advocates at the matches he was a special well liked and very honest man to deal with. He is a legend in the Bullseye world

The testing I was part of in the early to mid 80’s was unofficial but we used two Ransom Rests and chronicled the result at two clubs in NH. After three or four sessions we found barrel and ammo performance to be pretty close in accuracy with SV ammo through guns like the 41, three models of HS including the plain Jane Citation 107, A nice Hamden Victor and a real nice 102 Trophy. The 41’s were the 7” and 5.5” barrels. Other guns tested were Mk II Ruger, a Colt OMM and Early Model 17. We had a Walther GSP and Pardini GS but couldn't get them fixtured in the rests. I had to make Ransom rest inserts for several of these to test so we were pretty serious. As Hebard says in his earlier reports these test guns would group well enough to score high at the 50’ Gallery Course of fire. Probably the biggest group was about .375” while the HS shot one big jagged hole as did the bull barrel 41. So honestly yes all of these would theoretically shoot better than the shooter. I believe the late Don Nygord tested and concluded the same more or less.

We shot the following ammo as best I can recall during these unofficial club tests CCI SV of course, Fed Gold Target, PMC Target ( discontinued decent Mexican ammo) Lapua Standard, RWS Target,Eley Target Pistol, Remington Target. ( old batch )

So here is what I found and what I've learned from shooters and mechanics who forgot more than I'll ever know. With a precision or good barrel high quality ammo is a must. With a factory production barrel high dollar ammo may not always out perform less expensive ammo so testing is imperative. Tight match chambered barrels are usually fine with rifles but can be problematic on blow back target pistols and generally don't answer with revolvers. Tight or close match chambers require cleanliness, clean ammo and a well tuned gun and mag to feed over the course of hundreds of rounds of match fire. Lubed bullets are major problem as the lube accumulates at the mouth of a match chamber and eventually migrates into the chamber walls. The prudent competitor will take the time to wipe all ammo down and cycle it through the mag and gun.

From what I have learned almost without exception most factory barrels whether they are hammer forged or button cut are a couple of steps shy of a good custom barrel. That is not to say in a hundred factory issued barrels you can't have twenty-five zingers but the law of averages would not be in your favor. To me barrel performance with 22 ammo demands a smooth uniform rifling profile that will not foul or catch lead up after x-amount of rounds and start to open up on the paper. A good custom barrel is lapped enough that a dry patch doesn't leave strands hung up on burrs inside. This barrel will have a smooth chamber - one where extracted fired brass is free of longitudinal scratches or shiney spots. The breach face should be 100% true to the bore axis so the case rim fays 360° for reliable ignition. And probably the most important element of a good accurate barrel is a precise crown. It doesn't take much uneven exit pressure to knock a light bullet out of whack. So my point is the good custom barrels will not only print better but shoot longer and cleaner which means tighter groups over the long haul. To the match shooter or anybody wanting a good shooting 22 the less you have to run a cleaning rod thru them the better it is.

Finally we found both Hi-Standard and S&W muzzle brakes to be of doubtful use and a nightmare lead trap and cleaning headache. I shoot a Lou Lombardi ( Falcon Machine ) composite barrel on my HS. Essentially aaluminum slab sided 5.5" fitted up barrel with a Walther liner and semi- match chamber. It's got to be the most accurate barrel I've owned with any good quality SV ammo. But it's also the cleanest barrel I've ever seen in a 22 pistol. I put a brick through it when I first got it the ran a Hoppes wet patch and it came out gray. Medium gray. That's all

Regards

 

LD, those are decent groups although 50' might be a bit close for making conclusions on accuracy?

I tested my 41 with a Clark barrel in my Ransom Rest at 150' (50 yards) maybe a year ago or so. As I recall, I was getting 1" - 2 1/2" groups. The difference was Eley Black Box v CCI SV. I normally shoot 20 or 30 shot groups and discard the occasional outlier which I often seem to get. I don't remember any measurable/consistent difference between the Clark 5.5" barrel v the factory 5" sport barrel or the long 7 3/8" barrel

Mine shoots as accurately as any of my other target RF pistols in the RR. I have found that I get a bigger difference among the brand of ammo.

In any case, as you say, it definitely seems like a short sided decision by Clark