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Cap and ball revolver centerfire conversion cylinders for Colt and Remington

2.8K views 23 replies 9 participants last post by  Greenjacket  
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
For some reason I think these are extremely cool. Maybe it stems from the Remington in Pale Rider or maybe they’re just cool.

2 or three companies make centerfire conversion cylinders/systems for cap and ball revolvers. Per my understanding, The Howell/R&D style (the kind I have) were originally developed by Kenny Howell Howell Arms | Converting the Past into the Present
for use in Hollywood westerns to more easily allow the use of blanks. Kenny began selling them to the public and the rest is history.

the other major player in this market is Kirst.

the Kirst design has some advantages over the Howell design in that Kirst uses a separate rear plate that can be temporarily or permanently installed in the frame and has the option of an included loading gate so you can load and unload similarly to dedicated centerfire revolvers. You can also get add-on ejection rod systems for an additional fee. The disadvantage of the Kirst is they are quite pricey, may require some gunsmithing for installation of some models, and only allow 5 shots.

The advantage of the Howell design is they easily drop in to cap and ball pistols (the Remington is easiest since you don’t have to remove the barrel to remove the cylinder as in the Colt open top style), and no permanent modifications have to be made to your cap and ball pistol. You can swap back and forth just by changing the cylinders. Plus the Howell style is roughly half the price of the Kirst at about $240-$270 depending on model and finish.

Due to the significant cost of either system, it may not make sense for some people, as the conversion cylinder is often more than the purchase price of the cap and ball revolvers. I got my Piettas for under $200 each during Cabela’s (now defunct) annual sales, so it was a little painful to pay $240ish for each conversion cylinder. But they are super fun, shoot well, and allow you to shoot your cap and ball revolvers without the need to clean them immediately afterward (unless you shoot blackpowder cartridges, which you can do if you want).

Depending on your jurisdiction you may have to purchase your cap and ball revolver via an FFL and the conversion cylinders may or may not be legal. So check your local laws. In most places you can just order the conversion cylinder from somewhere like Taylor’s and Company or the aforementioned websites and you’re off and running.

One advantage of ordering from Taylor’s and Company if you have a Remington NMA is that they licensed Howell’s original 6-shot cylinder design from him. If you order a NMA conversion cylinder from Howell’s old west conversions it will come with 5 chambers.

Anyhoo these things are a lot of fun so check them out if you like.
 
#2 ·
For some reason I think these are extremely cool. Maybe it stems from the Remington in Pale Rider or maybe they're just cool.
Definitely the Pale Rider connection...

The disadvantage of the Kirst is they are quite pricey, may require some gunsmithing for installation of some models, and only allow 5 shots.
Can't really say "quite pricey" altho' they are definitely pricier than the Howells. OTOH, w/ the Kirst you can purchase extra cylinders sans backplate for the quick Pale Rider reloads for ~ 1/2 the cost of another R&D, since those are only ever sold complete. So about same same for initial setup plus 1 quick reload, and the price goes down for more QRs for Kirst from there...

The advantage of the Howell design is they easily drop in to cap and ball pistols (the Remington is easiest since you don't have to remove the barrel to remove the cylinder as in the Colt open top style), and no permanent modifications have to be made to your cap and ball pistol. You can swap back and forth just by changing the cylinders.
Yes. The Kirst can be had w/ a gated back plate [for some guns], but using it requires permanent mods to your revolver, which may make it a "firearm" in the eyes of the AFT or your local civil authorities [looking at you NJ. Go back to England where your antigun BS belongs!]

I got my Piettas for under $200 each during Cabela's (now defunct) annual sales, so it was a little painful to pay $240ish for each conversion cylinder.
Yes, it really sux what '%%% Pro has done to Cab's since taking over. [sigh] Definitely miss being able to pick up the bargain priced C&B revolvers during the run-up to Father's Day! :bthumb:
 
#3 ·
Definitely the Pale Rider connection...

Can't really say "quite pricey" altho' they are definitely pricier than the Howells. OTOH, w/ the Kirst you can purchase extra cylinders sans backplate for the quick Pale Rider reloads for ~ 1/2 the cost of another R&D, since those are only ever sold complete. So about same same for initial setup plus 1 quick reload, and the price goes down for more QRs for Kirst from there...



Yes. The Kirst can be had w/ a gated back plate [for some guns], but using it requires permanent mods to your revolver, which may make it a "firearm" in the eyes of the AFT or your local civil authorities [looking at you NJ. Go back to England where your antigun BS belongs!]



Yes, it really sux what '%%% Pro has done to Cab's since taking over. [sigh] Definitely miss being able to pick up the bargain priced C&B revolvers during the run-up to Father's Day! :bthumb:
I got two Kirst a 45 ACP on an 1858 Remington and a 45 Scofield on a 44 Navy( no such thing ) but the Italians made it so It's a Pietta with the ejector rod installed in lieu of the loading ram. i cut the barrel to 4.75 and dovetailed the barrel for a front sight,
regulated to shoot at point of aim. good shooting gun.
One major problem with Kirst is how the firing pin is installed It is the weakest point in an otherwise well machined conversion they Stake the rear of the firing pin STAKED !
and for me on the 45 ACP that firing pin came flying out and I lost it. off to some guy warranty to fix it how? they will stake it again. on the other hand I have dealt with Kenny for 25 years and he knows how to install firing pins.
I got two of his one on a Roger and Spencer (last revolver of the Civil War that was too late to make combat I think Ruger copied several aspects of the R&S. the other is the dimunitive Pietta 1863 or mini Remington in 32 S&W short fun gun to shoot I had to make a new front sight for it as well. all these BP revolver must have been regulated for 100 yards. go figure.
 

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#4 ·
I have 2 Uberti 1858 Rems. I bought them used, and one came with a Kirst 5 shot (no loading gate) and the other with an R&D. I used them in CAS, and found that the Kirst over rotated if I pulled the hammer back too fast and hard. The R&D never had issues other than it's an older one with no notches cut in the rear to see the case rim to determine if there's a round or case in the chamber. Sold the Kisrt to a buddy that just wanted the 45 Colt conversion, and bought another R&D through Taylors. Fun guns with black powder cartridge.
 
#5 ·
Agree that Howell's are the higher quality producer, just wish they'd do a proper conversion w/ a loading gate [Richards-Mason? Sorry, not a historical firearms expert, so I forget the details...] to compete w/ Kirst. When it comes to the ROA, the cylinder w/ integral backplate is the only way, due to how the Ruger is built.
 
#6 ·
Remember if you modify a BP revolver with Kirst it falls into the category of a Firearm per ATF the Howell does not, something to consider. Kenny did make a gated conversion at one time. and might soon again for a Pietta 1858 remington in .45 ACP.

Pietta Steel 1858 Army 45 ACP 5 Round Fluted Gated Conversion Kit
$330.00

GCK-1858-P-45ACP-6
 
#21 ·
The note changes nothing but signifies the ignorance of the person that wrote it. Maybe that's the source of the myth? Because the folks that build these guns for a living and have been round & round with the ATF say differently. You can install a gated conversion without cutting the frame. What's the difference? Cutting the loading port does not permanently alter the gun to shoot metallic cartridges and cartridges only. If it precluded the use of the percussion cylinder, it would be different. Permanently mounting the conversion plate would likewise change things. A permanent hammer alteration that precluded the use of the percussion cylinder would also change things.

Physically installing the conversion cylinder is what constitutes "manufacturing a firearm".

The original guns were permanently modified to cartridges. The hammers were altered, the frame was altered, the conversion ring was permanently affixed to the frame. It was not possible to change them back without serious gunsmithing work. Same with newly manufactured conversions. The Kirst gated conversion allows them to be switched back and forth. You just have a bigger capping cutout in the frame now. They are shipped with the percussion cylinder installed as a blackpowder gun and the conversion sent separately.

My Howell-built 1851 is a permanent conversion that had to be shipped and transferred as a firearm. I'm fairly certain this is the original percussion cylinder milled down for cartridges and chambered in .38Colt.

Image
 
#23 ·
I own a few conversion cylinders.
One for a Uberti Walker, one for a 1860 colt repro, and 3 for 1858 Remington reproductions.
And I got a great deal on a stainless 58 version I purchased for my dad.
All are 6 shot 45colt.

Why? Because I mass produce 45colt for my other reproduction revolvers and they are all 45.
I have found the colt round to be more consistent than using the C&B cylinder.
 
#24 ·
They are a lot of fun. I have Kirst .22 rimfire conversion cylinders for my Uberti 1851 Colt Navy and 1858 Remington bp revolvers. The 1851 cylinder dropped right in while the 1858 cylinder required a small amount of metal removal with sandpaper. Since I didn’t want to convert the 1851 to an ATF defined firearm, I didn’t cut its frame for loading but instead just load 22 shorts via the cap port.