Below 1080 fps

Hegelj - I have been all over this site, the web in general and have recently spoken with a representative with High Standard in TX. Frankly I suspect the sales person I spoke with at HS, never really understood those "<" and ">" signs in High School math. She stated it wrong, but, extrapolating from what was said ... Keep the muzzle velocity below 1080 fps.

That said, there are posts on here that say they NEVER fired high velocity and were original owners of weapons that still got the infamous clip well crack in right side of frame.

Look for ammo with muzzle velocity below 1080 fps and see what each weapon prefers to chamber.

Savor those old pistols, be safe and enjoy!

 

My 2 Hamden 106 Trophy manuals also say high vel. is OK, but I go with what everyone else here says

Stick with std. vel.--which means subsonic, which means below 1125 fps.

Most decent target or std. velocity ammo will be about 1080 fps or lower, such as CCI SV, CCI Green Tag, Wolf ME or MT or SK Jagd, even Rem Target green label if you like it, to name a few

 

My Citation manual stated high velocity is OK.
I never use it though - accidentally fired some American Eagle HV (purchaced for my GGS5) and it can't be good for the frame. Loud report and sharp nasty recoil.
I wonder if "high velocity" in .22 realm meant the same in the 70s/early 80s as it does in 2010.

I use CCI standard almost exclusively, it works fine.

 

Hai-m--good comment about what HV meant and got you both then and now. Maybe being old has it's advantages so I have a few thoughts.

From what I remember, not much ammo had velocity ratings in the 60's and 70's when I started shooting, so I think it'd be hard to tell, so I dug out a couple of boxes of old ammo kicking around that I have been saving to go with other old rifles I have.
I have 2 boxes of Rem. 22 LR Kleenbore (the old "dogbone" label) in front of me now from both the 1930's and 1950's--no mention of velocity at all--they just say "Dangerous within 1 mile"--modern stuff seems to say "range 1 1/2 miles" if it says anything at all about range.
Even have a blue plastic box of Stingers about 15 years old--just says "Hypervelocity", no mention of FPS. Now it's rated about 1400 fps or so, so you can bet that HV back then was under 1400 as the Stinger was the hottest stuff around when it came out.
I've heard, but not sure (and you know what free advice gets you, what you pay for it), but that HV was "hotter" back then, yet I've never seen any chronographs on the old HV stuff from back then and frankly, I don't think the old HV stuff was too "hot" and was about what it is today.

IMHO, it's just not worth the risk of using the HS stuff. The only reasons I can think of to use it is if you're plinking trying to pick off cans or apples 100yds away on the other side of a river (that used to be fun but used a lot of ammo!) and don't want as much bullet drop, or hunting small game and want a hollowpoint that may only come in high speed versions.
I also think in these short barrels the HS stuff really won't leave at much higher velocity, but will just tear up the gun, and not ususally as accurate as well.
One more thought--how often do you see someone shooting HV stuff through a Browning Medalist or Smith 41? Not often I'd bet--there's probably a reason for it.
If you want to shoot HV, get a Ruger pistol--besides it's a good excuse to get one more gun! I'm sure the GF or wife will understand!

 

22 blow back operated guns like Hi Std's match the force of ammo pressures against the mass of the slide, the force required to cock the hammer, friction, and the force of the recoil spring. It is a balancing act that is perfect only at a specific level of ammo pressures. The equation is balanced for the lightest recoiling (lowest pressure, lowest velocity) ammo that the gun successfully shoots (that means operates the slide and locks back every time on the last shot).

When the gun is used with higher velocity (pressure) ammo the frame of the gun has to absorb that extra energy. Anything else, other than the lowest velocity ammo that successfully operates the gun, beats on the gun's frame in recoil. Unfortunately, High Standards don't like this beating and show their disdain for it by cracking the frame from the lock back lever machined recess in the right side of the frame to the magazine well.

If you up the recoil spring force to handle High or Hyper Velocity ammo then the slide gets beat up when it closes against the end of the barrel. This eventually deforms the front of the slide.

So if you like your High Standard and want to keep it for a long time only shoot Standard Velocity ammo (sub sonic qualifies) and keep a good standard recoil spring in the gun at all times.

That's my opinion and yours may vary.

LDBennett

 

Yowsa! I'm usually pretty careful with my guns, and try not to abuse them. Just recently I posted about how I avoid running hyper velocity rounds through my Beretta 21A to prevent it's early demise.

Now I read this, and realize I should consider mending my ways towards my HS Sharpshooter I purchased circa 1983-84. I've almost always used high velocity in this gun, and have put thousands of rounds through it. To date, I haven't noticed any damage, and prefer it remain that way, as I intend for one of my sons to own it some day.

 

Plus you have to think about the potential for Metal Fatigue on some of these older guns...
after many years of abuse Before you got it, how well will it hold up to hot rounds now??

I've used High Velo accidently a time or two on my HS & older Marlin rifles...
but I definitely don't make a habit of it.

Standard Velocity rounds are quite sufficient for most close-range critters,
and are perfect for target popping.

Why risk a breakdown if you don't have to??

I use a simple formula, if it's made prior to 1968, treat it gently & feed it good quality Standard Velo ammo.
It might be a bit of over-safety, but it's better than frame cracks & other problems by a longshot.

 

In my case, the pistol was purchased new - it's one of the electroless nickel versions they put out for a brief time. Nothing special as far as HS's go, but I intend to keep it intact.

 

I had a brand new Trophy at one time. Not knowing any better, I used high velocity ammo. After a few boxes it needed a trip to the gunsmith. After he repaired it, he said to use only standard velocity...

 

ruined mine

I ruined the High Standard Supermatic (6" target model, with barrel weights, late 1950s vintage) that my dad gave me.
I ruined the back of the barrel and the front of the slide by constantly using high velocity ammo. Because it was cheap and always on sale somewhere, if you looked around.
Standard velocity ammo was only sold in gun stores, not big box sporting goods stores, and it was a lot more expensive.
But in the end, after several thousand rounds probably, the metal peened-over and actually shortened the dimensions of the pistol. Just polishing away the peened areas would not have fixed the problem-- the parts would be out of spec.
So the gun was ruined. It was sort-of fixable, but would never be the same or run 100% reliably again.
So said a very well respected and experienced gunsmith who later went to work for Glock when they opened their first facility in the USA.

 

Remember those manuals were printed 40, 50, maybe 60 years ago and lots of things have changed in that time. Lots of the guns out there have not been maintained. Even assumptions of whatever type ammo that might be appropriate have changed thru the years. The ammo has changed in that time too. In the 60's we had no idea that there would be hypervelocity coming some day. I can tell you from experience, Hi-standard frames can crack. The slides are pretty soft too and hi speed ammo will peen lots of areas of the slide and barrel facings. They are too fine a gun to abuse. If you want something that'll shoot anything get you a Ruger. They're a great pistol, just not in the same class as a Hi-standard.
Kcajeel

 

Some here advocate changing to a stronger recoil spring to "allow" the use of High Velocity ammo in a High Standard. They even go to the trouble of using a selection of them to find the one that just allows the gun to fully cycle with Hi Vel ammo. Then they get to find out that the Hi Std slides are relatively soft and the heavy recoil spring closes the slide with such force that the front edge of the metal slide gets beat up from closing so hard against the breech end of the barrel.

If you like your Hi Std pistol and want to shot it for years and years then:

1) use only Std Vel ammo in it.
2) replace the recoil spring frequently and any time it gets out of spec.

If the cost of Std Vel ammo is too much for you and Hi Vel ammo is your ammo of choice and gun maintenance is not your thing then get prepared to see the demise of your beautiful Hi Std pistol. Start saving your money now in order to get a replacement in the future because you MAY have to replace it.

Just my opinion and yours may vary.

LDBennett

 

Years ago I didn't know any better so close to 20,000 rounds later my Sharpshooter M is still clicking right along. Have fed it Super X solids by the brick. YMMV

 

Limbshooter:

LUCKY YOU!

Others have not been so lucky. Read gunsmokeer post above and do a search in the archives.

LDBennett

 

Mr. Bennett I consider myself very blessed, have a great family and fear the Almighty. Shoot mostly Dynapoints in it now when they are avaliable. Might bend your ear some if you don't mind if there are any issues with the High Standards. These are in my mind the single most enjoyable firearms a person can own, old school AMERICAN craftsmanship at its zenith. Sure wish I could still see as well as 10 years ago, no squirrel was safe at reasonable range. Have a great day!

 

I haven't ever shot any thing but CCI sv in my FK101.

 

Sure wish ANY standard velocity was avaliable in these parts. The CCI ss hp can be found but alas they won't feed in either of mine because of the long driving band. They are however my ammo of choice for tree squirrels in an ATD and a 452 varmint even with the hard bolt close.

 

Thre are so many internet ammo sites it ain't funny, good prices to be had if you shop carefully

Unless you live in Kalifornikstan...in which case, you are totally screwed until the legislature slides off into the ocean.

 

Limbshooter:

Have you read the instruction on jaybar's site on magazine adjustments? Many here shoot CCI SV ammo without a hitch in Hi Std pistols. I believe when jaybar adjusts others Hi Std magazines he adjusts them for CCI SV ammo (???). But contact him or at least compare his adjustments to the magazines to what yours are set at . That may explain why yours don't feed CC SV ammo.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~jbarta/otherstuff.html

Hi Std pistols are indeed fine guns that shoot amazing well but like anything else in this world they are not perfect. Today the company might choose a better steel for them if the company were still in existence (but they closed their doors in the early 1980's). When the NEW Hi Std Company in Houston Texas made their clone of the Hi Std pistol in the late 1980's, that is indeed the exact route they took. They did so because of the cracked frame issues with the Connecticut Hi Std's. Too bad the clone design was flawed in execution and all we got were stronger guns of which some did not feed ammo at all.

If you feel strongly that your gun is indeed strong enough to resist thousands of inputs of fatigue then by all means continue shooting ammo that is renown for cracking Hi Std frames. Admittedly it usually takes more than just shooting Hi Vel ammo. A worn out recoil spring and Hi Vel ammo is the known combination that cracks Hi Std frames.

There is nothing more disheartening to see than a gun permanently broken by the failure of the owner to understand risks like we see with Hi Std's, Hi Vel ammo, and worn out recoil springs when we know the cause and that it is preventable. It is even more disheartening when it is a beautiful Hi Std that cannot easily be replaced.

But we all get to choose. I point this cracked frame issue out in an attempt to try to save a Hi Std pistol from demise. You can choose to take or to leave the advice. It is your pistol.

LDBennett

 

Point taken Mr. Bennett and thanks for your wisdom. Didn't mean to imply that using hv ammo is recommended in these pistols. Some 30-35 years ago we just didn't know any better. I'm sure you know already that Brownells stocks several of the most needed parts for the HS's. My shooting buds and I have been lucky with the mags, only have had to adjust some of the new mags that were purchased from Houston. So far all have fed high, I use brass rods of varying sizes inserted into the feed lips and lightly tap with a plastic hammer to close the lips ever so slightly. Your obsevations of the Houston guns are right on point with what we've seen, they are just not right. Out of 3 Mitchell guns none were keepers. So as you say perserving whats left of the originals should be priority one. Just as a teaser my best friend who lives in Dallas has a Sport King with a price tag of $69.95 on the box! My Sharp Shooter M survival pack was bought new for $187.95. Kinda makes ya sad.

 

Limbshooter:

If your magazine adjustment technique does not work on CCI SV you need to review jaybar's as his does work for CCI SV regardless of the bullet shape.

The parts Brownells offers are Texas High Standard parts. That can be good or bad, depending (??). TX Hi Std also restricts purchase of some parts to FFL holders only (mostly ignition system parts like sear, hammer, etc.) which Brownells enforces. The latest TX mags with the metal bottom plate are good but may need adjustment before use. The plastic bottom mags are prone to failure of the plastic bottom piece.

As for prices, I remember seeing the then new Ruger 44 Mag and a new Colt Single Action Army sitting in the case at the local gun store with marked prices of $125. Back in the 1960's I bought a 1920's Winchester Model 94 lever rifle for $50 and I had more than a dozen to choose from. I traded the gun to friend years ago and when he died recently his brother sold the same gun for over $800 at auction. I see equivalent guns at gun shows all the time in the $800+ price range. More disturbing is remembering what gun stuff cost just 20 years ago. In general everything is at least two times more expensive today and the biggest part of the price growth has been in the last couple of years thanks to the DEM control of both the presidency and the legislature.

LDBennett

 

My father has a collection of High Standard Pistols including supermatics, model B, HD military, Sentinel, etc. From other collectors he has been told that you should only run standard velocity or target .22LR ammo in them. The reprints of the manuals I've been able to find for some of them have stated that they can handle standard and high velocity ammunition.

Which is the case?
I have read a few threads suggesting that the manuals are wrong and only standard velocity should be run through them. But I want to make sure.

What velocity of ammo should I be looking for if its not labeled as either high velocity or standard (thinking the cci blazer stuff here) or this Federal "target" ammo. Are either of those safe?

I want to continue shooting these handguns as they are a lot of fun to shoot and also very accurate but want to make sure I am running ammo that will not shorten their working lifespan either.

February 21, 2023

I am new to the forum and have some questions about standard and high velocity ammo along with the correct recoil spring weight to install as a replacement. My High Standard is a Hamden built Supermatic Citation Model 104 Push-Button Takedown built in early 1967 with the 5-1/2" barrel. I have the original paper work that came with the gun which was printed in 1964. The last sentence at the bottom of page 4 states "These guns will fire regular or hi-velocity .22 L.R. caliber ammo."

In ignorance I have been using Aguila .22 Super Extra Hollow Point, 38 grain with a velocity of 1280 fps. I have no idea what type of ammo my Dad or the original owner used, but at this point there is no cracking in the magazine area. After seeing the discussions I picked up some Norma TAC-22 .22LR 40 grain with a velocity of 1100 fps. The issue is I have a lot of the Aguila and I hope to be able to use it without hurting the gun.

I'd like to replace the recoil and other springs as I have no idea how long they have been in use. Would it be best to use the 5.5 or the 6.0 weight. for the recoil spring. Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks, Bill

 

It has been proven by people who reply here that the use of anything other than Std Vel ammo is a risk to the frame of the gun. In addition, shooting the gun with a worn out recoil spring offers the same risk. Will you get away with these sins? The statistics say yes but would it not be a shame if your risk had a negative reward?

My suggestion is contact Alan Aronstein at Interarms Texas and replace the recoil spring with the OEM 5.5 pound version Alan offers and only shoot Std Vel ammo like CCI Std Vel. Alan offers service of these pistols as well as new parts. This will not make your gun, at this point, immure from failure as each excursion the gun had taken in excessive recoil is cumulative in the micro crystalline structure of the steel frame. Because of the use of the wrong ammo (shame on Hi Std giving bad information about which ammo to use!!) the frame may have been compromised to the point of failure on any of the next shots taken. But probably not, based on statistics. Just don't do anymore damage to the gun.

What to do with the "wrong" ammo? Buy any Ruger pistol or rifle and shoot it up. Rugers are amazingly strong guns by design. A good 10-22 rifle makes a great can plinker and small game hunting rifle and eats almost anything you feed it. The Mark pistols are the same. Or buy a 22 revolver.

LDBennett