ammo

Standard velocity .22 LR is subsonic out of typical HS barrels. Low velocity subsonic ammo will likely not cycle the slide properly on a High Standard pistol.

 

My Victor is from the 70's of course and my gun guy told me to only shoot SV's with specs from that era since the gun was designed just/only for that. I'm no pro... but I am really good at following advise that comes from a pro.

 

High Standard specs for ammo

The manuals for the big button HS pistols say that .22 high velocity ammo can be used. However, in reality, use of high velocity ammo will increase wear on the guns and can result in frame cracking. Most everyone who shoots High Standard pistols for target shooting will use standard velocity ammo for two reasons: it is generally more accurate, and it is less harmful to the longevity of the gun. CCI standard velocity is a commonly used brand.

 

The Hi Std guns are "Blowback" operated. They are designed base on a particular ammo recoil force. In the case of Hi Std it is absolutely SV ammo. How do I know that (regardless the instruction manual allows Hi Vel)? Because it fully cycles using that ammo. Such a gun should only use the least powerful ammo that just reliably cycles the gun (it must lock the slide back on every last round).

Why? The blowback guns are a balancing act. It is the energy of the recoil balanced against the recoil spring, the inertia of the slide, the friction of the slide on the frame rails, the energy to cock the hammer. Any energy in excess of that has to be absorbed by the stop on the frame. Too much ammo energy and the frame takes a beating. In Hi Std's that beating may lead to a frame crack eventually. The effects of the beating are cumulative to the microstructure of the steel. Someone else abusing of the gun may cause your gun to crack its frame even with the use of SV ammo and the correct recoil spring.

This being said it is extremely important to always have an adequate recoil spring in the gun (OEM 5.5 pound is ideal). Those springs wear out as they reside in a tight cavity that thins their wire coils over time and use. The recoil spring should be replaced when you first get the gun and every 10 to 15 thousand rounds there after. A 10% reduction in that spring's force is time for a spring change.

While more robust guns (think Ruger) don't suffer this frame crack problem they also are not the target gun the Hi Std is. Since the real HI Std is long gone (mid 1980's) real parts for them are hard to find. There are clone parts from the former Houston Texas High Standard Co. (now bankrupt) and from interarmstx.com (Alan Aronstein), But cracking the frame is NOT the way to go and every effort should be used to extend the life of these great guns that get shot regularly.

LDBennett

 

I know that Standard Velocity ammo is necessary for long life in High Standard semi-autos but, what about sub-sonic ammo?

Most standard velocity ammo that I see is 1080 - 1100 fps.
Sub-sonic ammo that I've seen is rated as low as 650 fps (wouldn't even consider using this) to as high as 1065 fps.

My questions are:
1. Is it foolish to even consider sub sonic ammo if it's at the high end of the velocity range?

2. What is the actual design spec of High Standard semi-auto pistols?

It popped up in a conversation today and I just plain don't know.

I can answer only question #1. Standard velocity ammo is traditionally sub-sonic so make sure you understand that as I write this. I am not going to refer to SV ammo here, just ammo that has a velocity below the traditional SV speeds of around 1,070 fps.

Most sub-sonic ammo will not cycle the slide on a HS pistol. Some or most "Sub-sonic" ammo has little to no powder in the cartridge to create a very low power and quiet round. CCI calls their ammo "Quiet" or "CB". These types of rounds have a velocity well below 1,000 fps. Aguila calls their quiet ammo "Colibri". Aguila also makes a couple of cartridges that they actually call "Sub Sonic". Aguila "Sub Sonic" which averages 1,025 fps did cycle in one of my guns. I never tried it in the other.

A little confusing. So it is best to check the velocity of the cartridge before you buy it to shoot in a HS or any semi-auto pistol for that matter. A cartridge rated for around 1,025 fps may or may not cycle your pistol. I think it is close to working or not working. But that is just my opinion. Anything slower will be quieter but will require manually operating the slide.

 

Be aware that the "velocity" of the recommended ammo is not the one you measure out of your gun. It is the industry standard testing that is usually in the advertising materials or on the ammo box. I believe (??) that testing is done with a rifle length barrel.

There is, in actuality, more to it than just velocity. It is really energy. Energy includes the mass of the bullet. Are you up to lots of testing and/or a bunch of math equations? The safest ammo to use is the ammo almost all competitors use, CCI Standard Velocity. It is the least expensive accurate reliable readily available Std Vel ammo on the market. You can not go wrong if you use it. Some here on the Hi Std page claim it does not feed well. Their problem is a bad tune job on their magazines. There are other ammo's that might work that are more expensive or cheaply made or hard to get or not reliable. You choose!

LDBennett

 

Yes, I'm up to testing! Looking at chronographs as we speak.
I've often wondered what the actual numbers are when a 40 gr. bullet is fired from a 5", 6", or 7" barrel.

I've had issues with CCI standard Velocity ammo, but the ammo I used was five years or more old. Bought a new box and have been waiting for the flu to leave us alone so I can go try it. In the meantime I've changed the springs on our High Standards, gotten new magazines from Alan, and even put new springs, sear, and firing pin in an Erma EP-22 that I have to see if I can get that beast to shoot.

 

I chronographed a dozen SV ammos from a Marvel conversion and a SW 41.
Range of velocity was 903-1030. Most were about 950-960.

One observation was that velocity at the lower end was not the determining factor for cycling. It is the pressure curve. SK ammo at 930-934 did not cycle. CCI at 927-942 cycled very dependably, as did RWS SM at 903-927.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

There is a scientific way to determine if a particular ammo will work but you need information not readily available, like the pressure curve. Nothing beats testing in the gun of choice. Just start low in power levels and shoot nothing that is more powerful than Std Vel ammo.

So to re-cap: Velocity alone is not the test of whether any ammo will reliably cycle your gun without beating it up. testing, starting with lower power ammo, is the solution. But....CCI SV seems to be the choice of more shooters than most other ammo's for a 22LR target gun used in competition.

LDBennett

 

Understood. Thank you.

 

I too only shoot CCI SV in my HS 22 LR pistols. It’s inexpensive and functions well, even in most of my Rugers. So what do you shoot in your 22 Short pistols?

 

While the velocity (power level actually) variation between standard velocity ammo may not hurt your gun, using High or Hyper Velocity used over a long period MAY hurt your gun. You can not go too wrong if you stay around and under 1100 fps (box claim of ammo manufacturer).
But the bottom line is, it is your gun. And if a person chooses to risk hurting it, that is their business. I suggest, in that case, that they not come here and whine about how the gun was damaged.

LDBennett

 

I have a number of vintage High Standard .22 target pistols, and in my research came across the advice to only use standard velocity ammunition. A few years ago I picked up a High Standard .22 pistol made in Houston, TX. Has anyone with authority to say so ever affirmatively stated that the Houston pistols had such a change in the metallurgy such that they could use high velocity ammunition without risking cracking the frame?

 

Using only standard velocity ammo in all target pistols is good advice. With High Standards beyond the frame concerns, the driving (recoil) spring, the weight of the slide, etc are all engineered around SV ammo. The other plus is SV ammo gives the best accuracy.

PS: from the punxutawneypete I am guessing we may have been in the same area. We lived in La Jose before moving to Florida

 

The authority is Alan Aronstein (interarmstx.com Interarms Texas ). Alan was the manager of production for the several decades of Houston production. He was the designer of this last Hi Std gun from the Houston version of the Hi Std Co.. His direction to me over a decade ago was to break-in a new gun with 100 rounds of High Velocity then only shoot Standard Velocity after that. There is a design error that creates a stress riser in all of these guns. When abused they accumulate micro stress failures of the crystalline structure of the metal. A change of materials (as in the change made by the Houston versions) helps but the stress riser in the design was not totally alleviated. Alan claims he has seen NO cracked Houston frames. There is an unsubstantiated claim of one Houston failure but Alan disputes that, as far as I know.
The bottom line is: use only Standard velocity ammo (Box velocity of about 1080FPS) to assure you don't abuse these target pistols.There is nothing to be gained using Hi or Hyper Vel ammo and a bunch to loose including less accuracy with High or Hyper Velocity ammo.
It's your gun and you can shoot anything you desire. Just be aware that there may be consequences. If it is a cost issue, the least expensive Std Vel ammo has been CCI Std Vel that is accurate, reliable, and readily available (at least it was until the current ammo shortages???)

LDBennett

 

The authority is Alan Aronstein (interarmstx.com Interarms Texas ). Alan was the manager of production for the several decades of Houston production. He was the designer of this last Hi Std gun from the Houston version of the Hi Std Co.. His direction to me over a decade ago was to break-in a new gun with 100 rounds of High Velocity then only shoot Standard Velocity after that. There is a design error that creates a stress riser in all of these guns. When abused they accumulate micro stress failures of the crystalline structure of the metal. A change of materials (as in the change made by the Houston versions) helps but the stress riser in the design was not totally alleviated. Alan claims he has seen NO cracked Houston frames. There is an unsubstantiated claim of one Houston failure but Alan disputes that, as far as I know.


LDBennett

I will certainly take Mr. Aronstein's word for it.

 

I agree that you should only use Std Vel ammo in these guns because:

Blowback operated firearms (like virtually all 22LR guns) are balancing acts. The energy from the firing of the cartridge is balanced against the inertia of the slide, the friction of the slide moving to the rear, the energy required to cock the hammer, and the energy absorbed by the recoil spring. Change any of these items and the gun may short cycle or conversely the slide may beat up the frame (stress fracture crack inducing blows). These are target guns and as such were designed for Standard Velocity cartridge energy levels. The known stress riser in the design of these particular pistols underlines this requirement. Use more powerful ammo than Std Vel and you are abusing the gun and it may be harmed....eventually. AND... Standard Velocity ammo generally is more accurate than run-of-the-mill High or Hyper Velocity ammo's.

But it is your gun and you can shoot whatever you like in it...but do realize the potential consequences.
I just added this for the unknowing.
LDBennett

 

I've tried CCI semi auto Quiet (830 fps) and it would not reliably cycle my 107 Sport King.
Std. velocity is the sweet spot and the only stuff I run thru mine.

 

I refer you to my post above (#5) as to why low power ammo like QUIET don't cycle the pistol. While some rimfire guns shoot almost anything, they are balanced for these low power rounds and allow the recoiling slide to hammer on the gun's frame. Some guns are robust enough that it makes no difference as to the hammering. But Hi Std guns already have a stress riser in the design and using anything but the proper Std Vel ammo creates trouble, now or in the future.
LDBennett

 

Allow me, please, to tell a story. When I bought my Supermatic Trophy around 40 years ago, I, too, believed that high speed ammunition was preferred for a semi-auto to ensure functioning. The pistol had one quirk: it would always chamber a cartridge but occasionally the hammer would follow the slide down. I'd have to manually eject the round. Playing with trigger adjustments did not help. Eventually, I tired of this, cleaned and oiled the pistol, and put it away. Years later, I read that hi-speed ammo was NOT recommended for the the Supermatics; potential frame-cracking from battering by the slide! After being seized by panic, stripping the pistol, and examining the frame with a magnifying glass (looked good!), I switched as recommended to standard velocity ammo. Eureka! 100% function! I generally use CCI standard velocity these days. Great pistol, and it shoots better than I can!

 

Shil:
Some 22LR target guns care little what you put through them (think Ruger). But they are a lot more robust than the finesse both Hi Std and S&W Model 41 guns employ (other Olympic style target guns are also finesse rather than extra strong). Unfortunately, factories back then, in an effort to sell guns would not let buyers know that you should only use Std Vel ammo, as that was limiting the gun. Someone here said that even Hi Std's instruction did not explicitly limit the gun's ammo to Std Vel (??). I am glad you eventually figured this out and realized that these guns can be reliable if fed the right ammo and with magazines that have their lips adjusted properly.
A long time ago I found that CCI Std Vel ammo was the least expensive, accurate, reliable, and readily available Std Vel ammo on the market. But since the astronomical ammo prices and the shortage, I am not sure that is true any more. I bought a case several years ago (still working through it) and have not had to buy any 22LR ammo lately. Since I reload, I have discovered primers now cost about three + times what I paid for them just a few years back. For years I paid $18/1000 at gun shows and today I would have to pay nearly $90/1000. There is something wrong here!!!!
Anyway, do enjoy your "new" found Hi Std.
LDBennett

 

Another witness to testify that CCI Quiet won't cycle a 22 pistol. Well, a Ruger Mark IV 22/45. I bought a brick thinking it would be great for Bullseye Timed Fire and Rapid Fire strings. A reasonable theory but reality is that the gun wouldn't load the 2nd round in the magazine. Back to Standard Velocity ammo!

Glenn