In my mind all mentioned are inadequate . I think instead of caliber specific I would use weight and velocity as a minimum standard. You need enough kinetic energy to shoot through your game.

 

What energy level do YOU suggest?



You must have missed my calculations. The current caliber and velocity as a DEC minimum produces 41FPE (foot pounds of energy) at the muzzle. A standard rimfire produces 100+fpe at the muzzle.

What do YOU suggest as a minimum?

I will offer that I know for a FACT that 25FPE at the muzzle from a .25 cal will reliably drop a deer-sized animal in its tracks at 38 yards.

 

Video added of a standard velocity .22LR hitting a fresh deer head at 100 yards:

Thoughts?

I'm impressed for a sv round.
The 22lr is illegal to use for deer in MI also with the 22 cal cf being the minimum allowed. I might add a 22lr slug can and will ricochet off a head-on deer noggin unless the POI is in the nose.
Many are the stories told on RFC of cows or steers being put down with a 22 slug, shorts even, at close range or point blank.
In experienced hands the 22 is lethal.

 

Thank you for a contribution in the spirit of the thread.

In experienced hands the 22 is lethal.

I agree. In discussing this topic the comment about shooter ability always comes up. I cannot ever speak to the shooter quality or ability issue. I can only discuss the energies considered adequate and the energies of the calibers suggested.

Plenty of experience butchering deer with broken legs from 12ga slugs, and a final killing shot in the head. The shooters all had adequate power, but still managed to blow the front legs off before shooting it in the head.

My experience with .22 shooters is that they can hit the ram target on the horn at 100 yards in rimfire steel silhouette. I have seen plenty of perfect 100s with open-sighted .22 rimfires at SporterRifle matches too.

I even have a Ruger MKIII with holo sight that will reliably hit a deer head target at 100 yards.

The question of shooter ability cannot ever be answered. I am more concerned about cartridge ability.

Shooting a deer in the foot with a .30-06 is going to be less effective than shooting a deer in the head with a .22lr.

I personally would rather see the deer season opened up to rimfires before being opened up to airguns...and I LOVE airguns.

I have several airguns that will do the trick. They cost me about $1500 each. Add to that the $850 SCUBA tank set up to fill the guns and you get a ridiculous investment to kill a deer.

I have lots of .22 rifles. My Marlin M60 cost me $20 at a yardsale and will also do the trick of killing deer.

 

irresponsible in my book.

 

Why is it irresponsible?



Are you saying the airgun is irresponsible or that the .22 rimfire is irresponsible?

Can you tell me why? Too little energy? To small a hole? What?

In NY shots tend to be limited to 50 yards on deer. I am suggesting headshots only.

Would you say that a .22 rimfire (either LR or WMR) is irresponsible at that distance and with that target?

 

.243 is the smallest cal up here in Canada for hunting large game.
Coyotes are a grey area because there varmints.
Most people use a .223 or larger.
Very very few people claim they shoot them with a .22lr


Simple facts are, yes many cows/pigs/horses are taken with a .22lr.
However it comes down to shot placement.
Can we agree on that?

Thus it's a matter of being humane.
Question then, if you miss the head and hit anywhere else. Will it wound the animal? Will it most likely die from the wound?
Imo that's why a .22lr isn't a good round to hunt deer with.
It would be like police using airguns.
Only a heads shot would kill.

 

.243 is the smallest cal up here in Canada for hunting large game.
Coyotes are a grey area because there varmints.
Most people use a .223 or larger.
Very very few people claim they shoot them with a .22lr

Simple facts are, yes many cows/pigs/horses are taken with a .22lr.
However it comes down to shot placement.
Can we agree on that?

Thus it's a matter of being humane.
Question then, if you miss the head and hit anywhere else. Will it wound the animal? Will it most likely die from the wound?
Imo that's why a .22lr isn't a good round to hunt deer with.
It would be like police using airguns.
Only a heads shot would kill.

Agreed. But as I mentioned before...I have butchered many deer with the legs blown off by a shotgun. The leg shots did not kill the animals. Still no one would suggest removing 12ga slugs from the arsenal for humane deer hunting. So a wound is a wound regardless of caliber.

Now...one might argue that a deer could live more easily with a .22cal hole in its leg or haunch or ear just as well as a .30-06 or .30-30 hole. Bad shots and suffering occur with every caliber. Un-recovered deer exist with every caliber (and lots of bows). Does that mean that the .22 should be discounted out of hand?

I say not.

 

Just plain unethical to me. I don't hunt anymore but I did for over 40 years and I can tell you the worst feeling in the world is to unintentionally wound an animal and have to track it down to put it out of its misery. Why anyone would want to risk wounding an animal to prove a point is incomprehensible to me! End of rant.

 

Yup...here in Colorado its a non-debate....243 is the small end of the scale for big game...so that takes out the .22 centerfires and the rimfires.

 

I purchased a 243 as my centerfire rifle, as .223 centerfire is not considered large enough for our 110 pound deer in VA.

BUT, I purchased a 22 rimfire for shooting groundhogs,,
and after shooting well over 300 groundhogs with a centerfire rifle,, I can not kill one instantly with a rimfire,

I shoot at the hogs where they live, which happens to be under an abandoned shed, which is 100 yards from my house.

NO stops, NONE in 34 years of trying. They all die,,, but, not where I shoot them,,
typically, 90% make it back to the burrow.

I have changed my method or rimfire shooting of groundhogs,,,

 

In Nevada, .22 centerfire with at least 1000 fp at 100 yards. Some .223 Rem. rounds qualify.
Why would anyone want to use a .22lr for deer? They call deer guns "deer guns" for a reason and generally they aren't .22lr. Thankfully, most DNRs do the thinking for those who won't.
Respect the critters.

 

You apparently missed the original post altogether.

NY State DEC (DNR in your state) is opening up deer hunting to airguns of 30 cal with a pellet or ball moving at 650fps. Makes more sense to me to open up hunting deer with a .22lr.

 

This topic always elicits a storm.MY two cents,more whitetails have been killed in North America by 22 rimfire than any other caliber in production. I am a LEO I have killed dozens of deer wounded road kills with one shot out of my SR22 suppressed pistol.I have over bait shot 19 to date antlerless whitetails with a 22 77/22 integrally suppressed rifle ,using Winny subs,and Remington 40 grain solid golden bullets. Done with a legally issued kill permit by the state. Not one went furter than 2 feet when hit most dropped in their tracks.All shots were between 10 and 75 yards. Can be done has been done will continue to be done. My two cents.

 

A lot of decisions (laws) have been made without thorough research of the consequences. The initial thoughts may sound good and make sense (to some) but with greater research the negative side seems to always appear. It is easy to create a law and a lot harder to repeal it.

 

Thank you farmboy. That is why I sent my "no" vote to the NYS DEC. I would hate to see them pass a law that was not challenged by those of us with experience in the hardware.

Weirdly its seems that Crosman is somehow fueling the push for airguns to hunt deer. Crosman is a NY company. Crosman only produces one rifle (currently) that would meet the minimum criteria, and it is the fugliest ****ed thing I have ever seen (finally beating out HiPoint handguns!)

This is the Bulldog .357 PCP airgun. Tell me I'm wrong:

 

Relax! Don't get out your torches and pitchforks just yet. Hear me out.

The NYS DEC is opening big game hunting to big bore airguns. .30 cal min. 650 FPS min. That produces 41FPE min with a 44 gr pellet.

I asked them why not just open up the season to the two common rimfires. .22 LR produces over 100fpe with standard rounds and 40gr bullet.. .17HMR produces 250FPE with standard ammo and a 17gr bullet.. Each will mushroom to .30 cal on impact, especially the .17HMR with polymer tip.

That would seem to satisfy the energy, "caliber" and velocity requirement.
...
Thoughts?

"Energy" doesn't kill deer, blood loss does.

Most big bore airgunners would also admit that a .30cal airgun is too small for deer; you're looking at .357 & preferably, .45cal [or larger] for that task. The bigger the hole the better; this isn't target shooting, where the .177 reigns supreme...

Comparing .17 HMR with 22lr is specious; level ground is 22WMR and 17HMR.

 

Not trying to put words in his mouth, but I don't get the impression that the OP is so much advocating FOR the legalization of rimfire deer hunting, as he is arguing AGAINST the state's apparent belief that 30 cal. airgun is somehow a viable option while .22 is inadequate.

For the record, I am not convinced that the state should legalize either airgun or 22lr for deer hunting, outside of special circumstances such as those ohlongarm spoke of, without further study. I suspect the NYS DEC is doing the airgun thing as a way to allow more hunting, while allowing the anti-gun hand wringers to worry less (as it's "only an airgun"). Or a way to allow convicted felons to legally hunt.

 

drop a good size deer with 22lr with the right shot placement with no problem so what ever...

 

Deer hunting with a 22 why are we even having this discussion? 22-250 or 220 Swift maybe but a 22LR.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

You also apparently missed the original post altogether. Lot of that going on.

NY State DEC is opening up deer hunting to airguns of 30 cal with a pellet or ball moving at 650fps. Makes more sense to me to open up hunting deer with a .22lr.

A .22lr rifle has more power, is more common, is less expensive than a .30 cal airgun.

 

My opinion, air rifles under 45 caliber should not be legal for deer hunting.

There's a huge difference in a precision shot at short range and the most commonly taken hunting shots. Crafting a law to separate precision shooters from all the others is impossible. So I really don't have much recommendation for the legal matter of this.

 

Guaranteeing precision is hard with any form of weapon.

My opinion, air rifles under 45 caliber should not be legal for deer hunting.

There's a huge difference in a precision shot at short range and the most commonly taken hunting shots. Crafting a law to separate precision shooters from all the others is impossible. So I really don't have much recommendation for the legal matter of this.

Yeah, that is the tack I used for the DEC. Either enough power for the job or a guarantee of precision shooting.

There is a way to kind of assure precision. When I got my first bow license there was a voluntary "Proficiency exam". I had to put 4 arrows in a 6" plate at 20 yards using my hunting rig. I passed easily with my longbow. The little certificate I got would allow me to shoot in small State-run, mixed-use areas that were generally off-limits to hunting. It would also qualify me as a "sharpshooter" for urban deer removal if any city fathers decided to cull the herd that live in the cemeteries, ball fields, or other city greenspaces.

The accuracy thing has been brought up by the DEC officers I talk to here. They would support an accuracy exam requirement for airgunners. True, no guarantee that would happen in the field, but the DEC is trying to show that it makes every effort to get good shooters into the field.

The draw back to the .45 cal rifles is that they are LOUD. One of the justifications for the airgun use was that they were quiet and less likely to disturb neighbors nearest the hunting areas. I had a .50 cal Korean made rifle that was a nightmare. Very accurate, but very loud and very few shots per fill. It STILL only produced 105fpe at the muzzle with a 110 grain pellet. That is less than a .22 rimfire.

Supposedly the Modoc 9mm air gun will send a 77gr pellet at 1000fps. That produces about 172fpe. Pretty good for an airgun, and you need a Winchester Zapper in .22lr to get that close with common rimfire.

Still...a .22WMR will easily produce TWICE the energy of the $1200 Modoc airgun. Last I checked a .22mag rifle can be had for $160 or less, and you don't need a $850 tank to fill it up. Ammo cost is the same $0.30 per round.

 

No one missed your post.
One would be laughed out of deer camp if it was intimated that a big bb gun OR a .22 was a practical and ethical deer gun.
Using either one would be an unappreciated and very ill advised stunt that would not be tolerated, considering the respect that we have for our deer.
If our NDOW were to allow such a thing there would be heck to pay. Experiments as to what is barely enough gun to do the job can be performed on wild pigs.
The 1000 foot pound requirement was enacted this year to prevent those who would goof off in the woods with an underpowered deer perforator from doing so.

 

I just reviewed New York's hunting regs and it says airguns are prohibited to hunt deer. Under implement descriptions for big game hunting. Seems funny they are considering 30 cal airgun when minimum caliber for muzzle loader is 44 cal. and 20 gauge for shotgun.

 

Link to DEC info on Big Bore Airguns



Yes, the airgun for deer proposal was in the planning stage early this year.

Here is the link to the justification (Regulatory Impact) for airguns: http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/104335.html

The public comment window is closed as of 08 Feb 16. I haven't seen any resolution yet. They had hoped to make it legal for the 2016 hunting season.

As for current restrictions...I am sure they made sense at the time. Frankly I like a .410 slug. Its not legal for deer, but I don't see why not. I can produce almost 1100fpe with .410 Brenneke slugs. My most accurate .44mag load produces less than 400fpe with 200 grain LaserCast bullets. The .44 is legal, the .410 is not. Weird.

 

I have no experience with .30 caliber air guns, but a buddy has a .458 caliber air rifle. That thing is amazing. Super accurate, and pushes a big heavy pill fast enough that I wouldn't feel under armed in the event of a elephant infestation. Has some serious recoil too.

I might know a little something about hunting deer with a .22lr. Since the statute of limitations are long expired, I'll say that I once put a doe down in her tracks with a CB Long, out of a single shot rifle. The shot was placed behind her ear from about 15 yards away, with a quartering away presentation. Her knees buckled and her chin went in the dirt. She didn't even twitch. I was about 9, and had never even seen a deer before that one. That was about 45 years ago.

 

I have no experience with .30 caliber air guns, but a buddy has a .458 caliber air rifle. That thing is amazing. Super accurate, and pushes a big heavy pill fast enough that I wouldn't feel under armed in the event of a elephant infestation. Has some serious recoil too.

Do you remember the name of your buddy's airgun? The .458cal Texan is supposedly producing 500fpe with a 150gr bullet. If it weren't so ugly I would consider it. I still like some "pretty" on my guns.

Also the Texan is over 4 feet long. I'd have to rethink all my storage.

 

Please Do NOT Hunt DEER With .22

Please do not hunt deer with a darn .22.

Please use the correct caliber rifle-please.

 

From the Ky Dept of Fish and Wildlife Resources hunting guide:

LEGAL HUNTING EQUIPMENT


FIREARMS EQUIPMENT

Any caliber centerfire rifle or centerfire handgun.
Rifle or handgun magazines may not be capable of holding more than 10 rounds.
Rifles or handguns may not be fully-automatic (capable of firing more than one round with one trigger pull).
Full metal jacketed or tracer bullet ammunition is prohibited
Shotguns, no larger than 10-gauge, shooting slug ammunition only (includes saboted bullets).
Muzzleloading rifles, handguns, or shotguns shooting round balls, conical bullets, or saboted bullets

So "legal" equipment here would be a .25 auto pocket pistol and a .31 cal muzzleloader derringer


I know plenty of people who have cleanly taken deer (where legal) with a .22 Magnum. Air rifles are capable of outstanding performance on wild boar, and some would cleanly take deer out to 100 yards.

 

A 6.5-284 did this at 1000 yds

 

airguns no; bowling balls yes!



I do like airguns and rimfires. Both will certainly kill a deer, but the object is to STOP them where you can recover them.

Thus I advocate legalizing the use of bowling balls for hunting.
Seriously.

There's hardly a day that goes by that I don't have deer walking under my deck, and often times, they take naps at the end of it - like this nice buck:

Consider a 16 pound bowling ball dropped on a deer's noggin from a mear 12 feet. The deer would receive a solid 192 FPE at impact.
That's almost 4.7 times more energy than the minimum requirement for the air gun (at muzzle I assume).

It may not kill the deer, but it should STOP it long enough for me to reach it and cut it's throat.

 

Ny

Maybe pressure from this NY company made it happen. I would much prefer a big bore airgun to a 22lr.

These are made in NY.

http://www.crosman.com/bulldog-synthetic

The first gen worked fine. Its bullet placement. Being quiet is just a bonus.

New model

 

Maybe pressure from this NY company made it happen. I would much prefer a big bore airgun to a 22lr.

These are made in NY.

http://www.crosman.com/bulldog-synthetic

The first gen worked fine. Its bullet placement. Being quiet is just a bonus.

New model

I question the accuracy of these,not exactly the moa i'd be interested in,If I need to kill a deer and prove something I'll grab my 22 and drop em in their tracks all day,and all night as I've done over bait for at least 10 years now. Legal kill nuisance kill permits. The 22 is tried and true,nothing quieter out of my 77/22 suppressed rifle.

 

This is almost funny, except it is too sad to be funny.

In New York they are considering allowing air guns with (I'm assuming) lead pellets to hunt deer. On the other side of the country in California, they have banned lead for hunting. The ban is being phased in and will cover the whole state in just a couple of years.

You really can't make this stuff up.

 

I think they're pushing this law to allow all the felons a non firearm to deer hunt with! Think of all the license fees the state is losing out on because of the felons who are prohibited from owning a firearm.
This is the real reason for allowing the puny air rifles and not the 22 rimfire rounds!