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1950 Win74 Revealed Under Sludge😻

1.9K views 23 replies 15 participants last post by  OldRetiredGuy  
#1 · (Edited)
Good, Bad, Ugly?

Is it rational to hunt for a rifle in this muck?

Or could it be a classic case of bought new in 1950 per under barrel date, shot until it stops running, and then was put away for 70 years. The end result being lack of care preserves condition and prevents excess wear? Only the Shadow knows. Well, maybe we do!

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Two parts found so far in sludge of powder fouling and old oil.

Update 1:

Removed barreled receiver from walnut stock in a complete intact rifle and have the receiver and barrel all done. Takes forever. The top two bits in photographs were the first metal removed from the bottom of the receiver. What ever they are. The rest of the rifle is/was the same. Big 45 pad removed all slight surface corrosion from barrel and receiver without hurting bluing except for a single pencil eraser size spot. Thar be hope!

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Bolt assembly has been in submerged in Lacquer Thinner for a day. Ate through my zip lock. Wife wants to know what the fluid running across garage floor is.

Update 2:

Four and one half hours of steady work later the bolt assembly was stripped to loose parts, cleaned with a carbon cleaner, and reassembled. Just the bolt assembly. Shoulder hurts. Stuff was burned on and carbon cutter barely got it all off. Bore Tech C4 Carbon Remover.

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Update 3:

Very plain unsanded walnut coming along nicely. It had enough scrapes in the plain brown varnish and enough dings through the varnish into wood to need a new finish. I prefer not to sand stocks. Unsanded, a linseed oil finish looks the nicest and hides way more damage than a new shinny varnish finish. So BLO. Tested several dye combos and this replicated the original color, +/-.

Will linseed oil for a finish pop any grain? Maybe. Stain did not.

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Update 4:

It was a Win74 sitting neglected in the junk corner of a shop with a dated tag noting a long stay and a price tag three times its then worth. Looking past the powder fouling, dust, closet paint, and for a sensible$, it followed me home and even avoided the mistress of the checkbook.

Update 5: Parts at home again:

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Update 6:

This was the worst mess of neglect I have seen in memory. But everything under the crud is bright and shinny and un-corroded. Metal is now all clean. Working on stock. A lot of the metal goes in the stock. Barrel/receiver reassembled and all works without any visible wear. Thank you for the encouragement!

Update 7:

Plain walnut, zero sanding, some hand rubbed oil, good enough.

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Drat. 11 photos.

Update 8:

Almost time to reassemble.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Update 9:

Reassembled and function tests correctly with weighted dummies. Kicks them most of way into chamber operating bolt back by hand.

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The factory sights were/are hopelessly invisible to ancient eyes.

The D&T screw holes are a perfect dead center 4x4 match with a Weaver N2 mount, but I assume they are not factory. I note the skill as compared some occasionally seen erratic drilling. Had to be a jig of some sort.

New in 1950. Shot until so sludged up it was dysfunctional. Put away for X years. Metal work preserved near new by simple neglect. The owner DID believe in oil and grease. Thank you old Sir! Or Maam!

Update 10: A tad of historical reference from 1942 and 1952:

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Update 11:

What ammo to use? CCI SV is my usual n old guns. Will a Win74 run on SV? If not CCI MiniMags or Blazer? 🙂
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#8 ·
Update 9:

Reassembled and function tests correctly with weighted dummies. Kicks them most of way into chamber operating bolt back by hand.

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The factory sights were/are hopelessly invisible to ancient eyes.

The D&T screw holes are a perfect dead center 4x4 match with a Weaver N2 mount, but I assume they are not factory. I note the skill as compared some occasionally seen erratic drilling. Had to be a jig of some sort.

New in 1950. Shot until so sludged up it was dysfunctional. Put away for X years. Metal work preserved near new by simple neglect. The owner DID believe in oil and grease. Thank you old Sir! Or Maam!

Update 10: A tad of historical reference from 1942 and 1952:

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Update 11:

What ammo to use? CCI SV is my usual n old guns. Will a Win74 run on SV? If not CCI MiniMags or Blazer? 🙂
.
.
Gets my vote for Resurrection Hall of Fame...
 
#7 ·
That was a crazy mess. Years ago I found a Winchester 67 in similar condition. That owner smeared grease on the wood and the metal and then kept it in a barn. Dirt, grease, powder and hay. I finally got it cleaned up. Gave it to one of the kids at the gun club.

Congrats on getting that old 74 back to the land of the living! Very nice work
 
#14 ·
In many gun listings, they say there “may” be or there “appears to be” a small crack in the stock. And there “may” be some “speckling” (rust) on the barrel. Their pictures clearly show the crack and lots of rust/speckling, but many sellers don’t want to be 100% honest.

On cars, “virtually no rust” means there is rust, sometimes a lot of it. And when they say the A/C “needs freon,” it generally means the entire A/C system is shot.
 
#12 ·
On a stock like that if there is raised grain after oil finish you can 'bone' it. Just as said, use a pice of Smooth bone or antler and gently press the grain down a small spot at a time until you get the tightness you want; you will see it smooth up as you go. Once all done you can give it another thin rub-in, let dry and leave as is or 'polish up' a bit.
 
#13 ·
Some people have no clue.

I bought a 4x4 X-Cab Ford Ranger XLT that the second owner, who took over payments from a deployed service member at 5K miles, never changed the oil or did any scheduled maintenance. It quit at ~50K miles and I got it for practically nothing. After having the block and heads hot tanked it could have probably been put back together w/just bearings and a gasket set and been just fine. The oil pan was solid with what looked like axle grease, as were all of the passages. I tore the lifters apart and they too were full. There was little or no evidence of wear, I had fully expected the cam to be flat.
 
#16 ·
ORG, well done on resurrecting that 74! Your posts say "plain walnut" almost apologetically. For me, even plain walnut is preferable to other woods, laminates, and synthetics, so you get at least a silver medal on the stock. Also, I like the raised grain of old walnut. I think it adds personality and an air of rustic tradition to a gun.

I resurrected a 1955 74 that I picked up at a pawnshop, but it didn't require near the lifesaving measures yours did, and yours now looks as nice as most any 74 on the forum. Again, well done; let us know how it shoots!
 
#17 ·
Thank you.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is walnut and there is everything else.

That slightly open grain of the walnut is how it looks after 75 years. Six coats of BLO will start to shine a little, but the grain structure remains open or raised a bit.

I use “plain” where I should say straight grain meaning not fancy figured, but in Winchester tradition this stock has a perfect grain direction in the blank flowing up through the wrist for strength and stability.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Update 15: Shooting.

So far all show and not much go. Meaning semi auto function eludes this rifle.

Exact problem: Load two CCI Blazer or CCI SV. First fires, ejects, loads second round, firing pin does not reset, trigger dead. Maybe 3-4 times in 20 sets it properly and cocks the firing pin.

Note: It is completely clean.

Observations:
-feeding, firing if cocked, ejection, re-feed perfect.
-the firing pin and operating springs seem fine and strong.
-trigger appears normal
-rocker and spring appear normal and unworn and correctly assembled
-original as purchased in the bolt stop sear has a nice edge for holding the firing pin
-firing pin has a perfectly square notch.
-It has the shark fin type firing pin running in a slot in the bolt.
-The firing pin needle screws into the notch end aligning front and rear when tight.
-The system always re-sets hand cycled holding the trigger to the rear re-setting with a click.
-Rarely when fired for real.

This original sear gave a smooth 2-2.5# trigger pull and is the only one shot so far.

I put in a new GPC sear last night and the trigger pull became 3-3.5#, grates, moves, grates, dry fires. Not tried with live ammo yet.

A new sear spring is en route from GPC. The old one seems fine.

Wasting range trips in hot weather has me asking for ideas.

(And here I thought the Savage Stevens 1930’s design semi autos were ornery.🙃)
 
#19 · (Edited)
Update 16: Machinery changes.
-A new GPC sear was installed using the old spring since GPC sent the wrong sear spring.
-A new GPC timing rocker spring was installed of no particular difference from the old one.
-The trigger pull is now 3-3.5# grating and grinding. The sear tip is an unfinished stamping.
-A trigger return spring with one end hook broken off was installed along with the good one.
—making new hooks after shortening the arms fitted it inside along the normal one. The trigger has some feel now before contact with the timing rocker. No change in pull.

Update 17: Shooting with CCI Blazer 40 grain RNL HS.
-A box of 50 was more or less fired.
-The firing pin reset every time as best I could tell, BUT
-1 in every 2 or 3 firing pin strikes was a did not fire.
-All the strikes, fire or dud, were light, very narrow, and close to the edge of the rim.
-cycling felt quite firm banging against the rear
-Standing, ejection landed cases 12-15’ of bench table to the right.
-Extracting the dud makes a nasty jam because a new round is feeding as the extractor pushes the dud left over the ejector and under the center top guide.
-Observation indicates the pin is short of the bolt face.
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With straight edge.
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Update 18: Shooting with CCI SV 40 grain LRN:
-A box of 50 was fired in 2’s, 3’s, 5’s, and 10’s
-The firing pin reset every time
-There were no fail to fire duds.
-No malfunction of any kind.
-Cycling felt markedly different, mild and smooth.
-Standing, ejection was about 5-6’ of bench table to the right.
-Fired SV case
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Update 19: Extraction/ejection:
-Having no experience with a 74 that works, the extractor operation seems odd.
-With only an extractor and no left side guide, when extracting unfired loaded chambered rounds, the round falls out from under the extractor. A messy jam when the extractor pushes the round left over the ejector and under the center top guide.
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Update 20: Advice and opinions solicited.
-does the threaded needle of the firing pin unscrew a turn to adjust length?
****NOPE. Threaded in and then staked somehow through two access holes. Loose for half a turn and stops.
-Is the extractor normal?
-Is the difference in operation ammo power, a weak operating spring, or some other problem?
****NOPE. Zero RFC advice, although a non RFC fellow had some thoughts.

Update 21: Modifications:
Lacking any sage advice, time to experiment.

a). The firing pin protrusion through the bolt face was changed so the sharp pointed pin stuck past the bolt face. The pin tip was then squared shortening it to stay within the rim recess, behind the bolt face, and away from the barrel. In effect, it was protruding farther with 3 times the end tip area.

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b). The result is a good wack on the rim.

Three strikes after changes:
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Comparison of old and new:
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c). With the extractor at a minimum setting, it was adjusted to bear on the case slightly more to help with live round extraction. The tip was not changed, just allowed to go slightly more toward center.

d). As to springs, they are now perfect strength wise for CCI SV. Will leave alone pending some need for HV LR in the future which would need stronger springs to avoid battering.

e). With rim fire ignition now making a good dent and with extraction improved a bit, the 74 needs shot with CCI SV. Will probably be a week or two.🎯🍀
 
#21 ·
Good work on the restoration!
I love the peep models, dad had one when I was younger and sold it for about $200 🤦🏻‍♂️. I have since bought a 22lr version(same as he had) and just won an auction for the short version. Doubt I will shoot either much but I like to have the rare models in good or better condition.
Chad
 
#24 · (Edited)
4th July has come and gone and I had a chance to shoot the Win74 today. With items fixed as noted above, it feeds, fires, ejects, and repeats until magazine exhausted 100%. GPC failed twice to send a sear spring. Extractor spring instead both times. A home made sear spring seems to work fine. Shortened some unknown spring of about the right tension.

Zeroing data obtained with both Blazer and SV. 5 elevation bumps different at 50 yards on the Dockendorff rear dial sight. 4 bumps up off bottom with Blazer and 9 bumps up with SV. 2.5 MOA difference. The screw dial rotates to raise and lower the notch in 1 MOA adjustments. The only caveat is the rear sight has to be centered on the barrel so the left and right side bumps straddle the barrel curve evenly. Windage is with the front sight.

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Modestly good accuracy considering shooter and open rear sight. The Blazer rounds were a surprise grouping well, probably as well as the SV.

SV functions 100% with a mild bolt back and forth sound. Shuck-shuck. Blazer much faster bolt speed and feel and blast noise. Wham, slam, do it again. I really don’t understand why an extra 150fps generates so much more bolt speed and slamming noise, but it sure does.

I should stick to SV as an appropriate power level for the springs. It works with the machinery well timed as is. And I have some CCI SV LHP, not LRN. Sort of a rarity. Just as accurate.

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This is the first Win74 I ever saw in person. Seems an interesting blue steel and wood .22LR semi auto rifle from a prior era. Figuring out how it worked and how to make it run again turned out to be a larger effort than cleaning it.

My impression is that the design only runs when it’s mechanically near perfect. And only on a narrow range of ammunition. Without a bolt hold open, with the butt stock feed system, with a single extractor hook striking a fixed ejector, with a multiple contact point trigger system, with skimpy but no decent option iron sights, and with a safety on cocking problem needing a hang tag, people bought it because of the brand name. Another fixit learning experience.

The Winchester price point was on purpose and for marketing less expensive than other Winchester .22LR semi autos, but more expensive than the similar size Savage/Stevens 6&7/85&87 series. Winchester’s $40-$41 versus Savage/Stevens model‘s at $29-$31-$34-$35 was probably significant in the early 1950’s. Any trip down that comparison rabbit hole topic would just be a food fight in second grade. A Model T versus a refined option filled design.

The above seems adequate history and fixit info so I am guessing it’s enough.