Thanks guys i deleted your post -didn't want anyone to be confused after the correction i made -and now mine is corrected!! It is the PRE A's that are prone to crack. joe

 

Calfee Book

Although there are no photos there is a good illustration of this problem in the new Calfee book.

T

 

WHAT CAUSES 52 PRE-A's TO CRACK?

I had read numerators time about the Pre A's cracking. I didn't know where until i found the picture Steve posted (thanks).

Question -what makes 'em crack? It is hard for me to believe it is recoil from a 22 rimfire. Just looking at the pic it looks like it could be a locking lug to thick being cranked into a space too small- but i don't have a clue, never even seen a Pre-A.

Does anyone have any ideas -what seems to be the conses of opinion ???
thanks joe

​

 

I believe that it is the camming action of the safety(once things start to wear on the rifle, the safety may try to cam the firing pin/bolt sideways instead of backwards, due to wear induced misalignment), but could also be a result of the hammering that could occur when the bolt to bolt handle wear begins to increase headspace, or rather, just too much clearance in that whole "sandwich". My old 1923 model had .010" clearance, I put in a .010" shim to tighten it up. Makes it shoot better too....

DPSTX

 

jGee, good question, one I'm sure to be curious about myself, having a premium pre-A of my own. Since the A had a redesigned and beefed up safety mechanism, I'm gonna guess/hope that actuation of said safety on the pre-A put undue stress on the underdesigned metal in that area. Luckily I only shoot the gun off the bench, thus never actually have to manipulate that safety catch--the gun is either being fired or is unloaded and the bolt open.

 

I'll be interested in the experts' replies, as well. I know a perfectly crisp, 90 degree cut in a part that will be under stress tends to concentrate, or focus, stress right into the "crotch" of the corner, leading to cracking. A small radius there, even a very small radius, will greatly strengthen that area. I remember a class on wire EDM technology where we were taught that just the diameter of the wire cutting the corner made a difference. This came up when I was cutting the mortise for a falling block action I was making. Since it was a very easy thing to program, I ended up cutting a small radius in the corners, about 3 times the diameter of the wire, to ensure maximum strength. The corners of the block were then just broken enough to match the radius in the mortise corners.

As far as the pre-A cracking, I know it can happen when head space is too tight. When rebarreling, a gunsmith, wanting that last bit of "minimum headspace," goes a bit too far. The camming action of the bolt does the rest. As far as rifles with barrels installed at the factory with the proper headspace developing cracks over time, I'll defer to the experts, again. I know that the pre-As were later improved by shortening the shaft on the safety levers to reduce leverage and prevent bending of the shaft, at least that was the official reason. The shorter shaft conveniently resulted in more steel behind the left lug, though, so the cracking in that area may have influenced the modification as well.

I'm very curious about what the knowledgable people have to say.

TBR

 

Bill Calfee attributed to the receiver being case hardened and the thin cross section. With the receiver being so thin it would become brittle when case hardened. That sharp corner does create very high stresses.

 

Crack

Didn't think they were hardened prior to the "C" ? Besides the trigger that was a major item that set the "C" apart from earlier 52's many of which lost their headspace from being "soft".

bjm

 

We have some interesting observations. If someone has an extra pre-a layin on the floor, please send it to me -i wanna see, lol.

Does anyone have a parts Pre-a or maybe one that is cracked they cut put a file on to "feel" for the hardness. Case hardened a file should just slide across and not bite in????

Mr Seewin do you have any more pics of a pre-a receiver? thanks everyone it is an interesting subject. joe

 

52

I really believe it was a combination of things that contibuted to the cracking of the locking lugs. The safety was definately the start of the problem and after continued shooting -which in turn caused headspacing - it threw it out of kilder to a point that stressed the locking lug and it cracked. Winchester tried to solve this problem by strengthening the locking lug and I believe modifying the safety somewhat( have to go back and look at some old info-can't remember) in the 52A's. The B's were re-designed completely. Brian is right about the C's-the actions and bolts were case-hardened. Thus eliminating head-spacing. The problem with the casehardening is warpage and this causes accuracy problems.

 

?

I have looked up my 52 and have never been able to determine what it is exactly. It's serial number is 38452, is it a pre-A or is this gun an un- marked A ? I believe it was manufactured in 1935.
Thanks

 

I have looked up my 52 and have never been able to determine what it is exactly. It's serial number is 38452, is it a pre-A or is this gun an un- marked A ? I believe it was manufactured in 1935.
Thanks

Your gun is an A model that was produced prior to Winchester marking them as such.
Steve

 

?

Thanks

 

The pre A's measure about .100" where the crack occurs, A's measure about .185". On my pre A the safety cams the firing pin rearward when engaged, I believe that this induces more stress than firing as you have two lugs to absorb the recoil when fired..............George

 

HERE ARE SOME EXCELLENT PICS OF A PRE A WITH NO CRACKS

I pulled out my 52 to check up on that crack business, whew no crack. Took the time to do some closeups and got carried away. Here is the link to the story and provenance of this great old gun. 17XXX

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218749

I have the original blade front, can't remember why I put this 17 on it, but will shortly amend this

This ferrule/escutcheon is for an aluminum cheekpiece made in the Studebaker factory

The typical flaked out trigger guard syndrome

Showing some case colors

 

pre-a lug crack

How common is this lug crack? Is this something that will eventually occur on most pre-a guns or is it a hit or miss sort of thing? Thanks.

 

How common is this lug crack? Is this something that will eventually occur on most pre-a guns or is it a hit or miss sort of thing? Thanks.

The crack is the result of the safety camming off the firing pin sideways. If the firing pin/safety relationship is correct, then it's ok, the safety will get behind the firing pin and push it to the rear as it's supposed to. If someone has filed on the sear or enough wear has occurred that the firing pin is too far forward, the safety will bear against the side of the firing pin and this causes the safety to crack the lug. If it is used as a bench gun and the safety is never used, it'll be fine as well. The cracking is not a result of firing pressure, and honestly, the 52 has enough locking lug for some centerfire pressures.......

DPSTX

 

lug crack

Good evening gentlemen, new to the forum but have shot .22's in various forms of comp for 40 years. Just bought a pre-A last year not knowing about the crack problem until a month AFTER I'd owned it. As far as I can tell it DOES NOT AFFECT accuracy like some say. This gun will shoot off a bench as good as the 52D I shot in indoor gallery. Stock design and weight (too light) affect overall offhand shooting accuracy. I did find two local tool and die shops that can grind out and either micro-weld or plasma weld the crack for me for $50-75Haven't decided if it's worth the effort. At this time I'm trying it in indoor gallery after replacing the stock with a laminated thumbhole.

 

Safety affecting the rear lug crack

Thanks to all for the heads up! I have what I guess is a 'Pre-A" (manufactured, I think in 1926). When I bought the rifle I was worried about how hard it was to engage the safety. I took the rifle to a gunsmith who just flipped it over. I was worried I would break something. So all was ok. But... now I see that engaging the safety puts stress on the lug. I will not take the chance anymore. The rifle is not used in the field (I do my tin can hunting with a Rossi 62, a Mossberg 346B and a Smith Model 34) and I do not expect to need to engage the safety on the 52 at a range. On another note, I added a couple of pics of the sight on my 52; is this from an '03-A3?

 

I bought a Winchester 52 speedlock, serial # 199XX, with the intent of having the action worked over, rebarreling it and adding a custom stock. Little did I know of the cracking problem when I bought this rifle. Luckily, this rifle does not have this crack (yet ?). How do I absolutely, positively prevent this crack from happening? If the safety has to be removed and a different type of safety fabricated, so be it but, it has to be 100%. What can I do?????

 

Read this thread carefully, advisably with the rifle in hand, there are several descriptions of the causes of the crack and the avoidance of same. The safety can be used if it correctly cams the firing pin rearward only, with virtually NO side load. Every shooter of the rifle should be aware of the potential problem and be aware of how it feels every time they use the safety. My rifle is a very early gun (#1392), and has been shot quite a bit, judging by the wear and the fact that the barrel was replaced already, I expect MANY years ago. The safety is in fine shape and works reliably. Its cam engages the firing pin from the front and cams it straight back, as it should.


Good luck and Good shooting...

DPSTX

 

Hello,

Quesion, I too have a pre-A, speedlock Winchester 52. My 52, fortunately, does not have this crack (yet). I am wondering if there is a way to prevent the crack from happening? My understanding is the the "A" version has an extra .085" of metal in the area that cracks on the pre-A. My thought is adding metal in front of the lug (.100"), machining it square and then machining the .100" off locking lug on the bolt. This would effective make the weak area stronger - but is it feasible?

 

your safety....

pm sent

DPSTX

 

this is an old thread so this question may not be viewed by anyone but I'll ask anyway; to what degree does a cracked rear-lug effect the function and accuracy of these rifles? Like someone else here, I never use my safety because of the manner in which it is shot, but would still like a feel from someone for what you are dealing with IF you have a cracked lug. regards.

 

Annotated "A" vs "Pre-A" Pictures

Seewin put together some annotated pictures for the A versus pre-A locking lug arrangement in this thread:

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539862

 

Have 2 pre-A's and one has a cracked lug. Seems to shoot fine, have used in 100 yd. matches and scored high (but no cigar). Uncracked one shoots about the same.

 

Just to add to the conversation. The issue is from the thickness of the area that was subjected to excessive heat during the hardening at the factory. The area around the lug was much thinner and when the factory brought the heat up to harden the receiver it caused the area adjacent to the lug to become brittle.

The simple camming action of the safety would over time cause the brittle material to crack. On top of which the crack can be very difficult to see. So much so one could easily be fooled into thinking there is no crack present. If you are fortunate enough to have a rifle that you do not see a crack, you may want to try a simple check to verify the condition. As it in fact could be cracked but no separation is yet seen.

A simple procedure that you can perform is to clean the area with a dry cloth and use a few drops of penetrating oil and quickly wipe the excess off. Allow the rifle to sit still for 10 to 15 minutes and then reexamine the area with a 10 power jewelers loupe.

If cracked you will see a thin line of oil come to the surface. But, unless the area is re-treated using cold rods it would be wise to not use the safety.