I've never seen a barrel profile like that. Very interesting rifle. I don't know enough about the Greeners to comment more, looks mid 20s to me.

I do have a comment about safeties though. One should never depend on a safety to prevent any accident, I have had 3 position flag safeties flip to off in the woods, my Sako safety would never stay on.
Safe gun handling is what prevents accidents.
Never point a gun at something you are not willing to destroy
Keep your fingers off the trigger.

A competition rifle should never have a safety

 

WWACE

As far as your comments on Safeties, I never said I relied on safties, I said it makes me uncomfortable to carry a loaded rifle in the woods with no safety. Are you saying you felt comfortable when your wing safety flipped off, i.e. it didn't matter because you are a "safe" handler of firearms?

I don't buy that, not even a little bit. I also don't particularly need someone to tell me how to safely handle firearms, been doing that for some time, as a civilian and as a Marine, thank you!

As far as the comment that "a competition rifle should never have a safety", I've heard that one before and don't agree with that either. You can never be to safe with a firearm. Just because you are disciplined with your firearm does not mean everyone around you will be. A safety is added security, and I like them on any firearm I may be teaching someone to shoot with.

One exception I can think of would be a "Live Pigeon" shotgun. There can be serious money on the line in those competitions and to miss a bird due to a safety on would really leave a mark!

Appreciate your comment that you have not this barrel configuration on a Martini before, same here.

Cheers!

Wade
Semper Fi!

 

WWACE

As far as your comments on Safeties, I never said I relied on safties, I said it makes me uncomfortable to carry a loaded rifle in the woods with no safety. Are you saying you felt comfortable when your wing safety flipped off, i.e. it didn't matter because you are a "safe" handler of firearms?

I don't buy that, not even a little bit. I also don't particularly need someone to tell me how to safely handle firearms, been doing that for some time, as a civilian and as a Marine, thank you!

As far as the comment that "a competition rifle should never have a safety", I've heard that one before and don't agree with that either. You can never be to safe with a firearm. Just because you are disciplined with your firearm does not mean everyone around you will be. A safety is added security, and I like them on any firearm I may be teaching someone to shoot with.

One exception I can think of would be a "Live Pigeon" shotgun. There can be serious money on the line in those competitions and to miss a bird due to a safety on would really leave a mark!

Appreciate your comment that you have not this barrel configuration on a Martini before, same here.

Cheers!

Wade
Semper Fi!

If a safety makes you feel better then great, you were not intended as the sole target of my little speech. Thank you for your Service also. All I am saying is a safety should never be relied upon, ever. I would not hesitate to hunt with that Martini, I just wouldn't load it until I wanted to fire.

I am a member of other forums dedicated to more modern firearms also, some with mostly military members. These other gun enthusiasts look at us very poorly for our firearm handling skills in general with covering others with a gun in particular. the biggest claim while at ranges etc. They even ***** about us trap shooters resting our barrels on our Bob Allen shoe protectors. Some of their complaints have no merit in my opinion but sometimes they are correct. Yes there are old men at ranges who are careless with the muzzle and the more we are aware of firearm safety the better others look at us. That we are often our own worst enemy is a very true statement

deleted as it was poorly written

 

Greener Martini History

Here is a complete history of Greener Martinis:

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/W.W.Greener_martini_target_rifles.htm

From the pictures and descriptions on this site I would say you have a Greener Sharpshooter's Club Rifle Mk. 1.

 

Martinis

I understand your attraction to Martinis. I have two. The first is a Cadet that had been modified to fire .357 magnum when I bought it and that I re-barreled to .219 Zipper to try to make a varmint rifle out of. I made two mistakes in this build: I chose a cartridge that wears out brass quickly because of the long taper (it flows and lengthens), and putting a Lyman Supertargetspot on it. The Lyman is a fine scope, but not good for shooting varmints at different ranges because of it's slow objective adjustment for parallax. It was a great shooter off the bench, but less than useful for varmints. A cartridge like the .218 Bee with a hunting scope would have been a better choice. But I built that 50 years ago, and have learned a few things since then.

The other Martini is a Mark II target model. I have put a Balvar 6-24X scope on it, and it shoots pretty well. I can shoot right around 1" at 100 yards off the bench with Wolf ammo, and I enjoy shooting it as a bench gun. The problem is I shoot with a bunch of guys who all shoot sub MOA, which I can do with my Kimber 82G, so I have to shoot the Kimber to be competitive. It's a nice looking rifle and I like the action, but I'll probably end up listing it for sale when I can figure out how to post a photo.

But I entirely understand your appreciation for the Martini. I share that, and would continue to shoot it if I could find an ammo that did better than the Wolf.

 

Mark II

I guess you can see I figured out how to attach photos! Not hard at all.

 

Final thoughts on Martinis

Like you, I have seen how the carbon ring can change things in the Martini. The nice thing about the Mark II is that you can drop the block/trigger assembly out the bottom and scrub the carbon ring through the back of the action. Quick and easy!

 

epolenta,

Boy that is some bestie of a scope! Very nice condition on the rifle, would be hard to let that one go. Try to find what she likes before you let it slip away.

But I confess I'm a bit like you, my standard go-to round for accuracy is CCI-SV. If it cannot shoot decent groups with that I cannot get too excited about it. I have a very hard time paying $11.00 - $18.00 for a box of 22s. But then I freely admit I'm not a competitive shooter when it comes to 22s (yet!). If that changes I'm sure I'll be bellying up to the bar for that top end ammo just like all the rest!

Cheers!

W

 

Afternoon All!

So here it is, it's a W.W. Greener 22 LR Martini, and (I think) a fairly unique and interesting build at that.

Wade
Semper Fi!

This is a very interesting rifle. First impression, a Commercial Greener Martini .303 relined to .22 for Miniature Rifle club. That barrel profile is typical Enfield Martini profile. Then I looked at all the pictures. That barrel does not appear to have been relined, rather it is purpose built .22.

That made me get up out my chair and go to the library and dig the Greener book out. This in it's self is remarkable as I have only moved a portion of my library to Oklahoma from Montana in anticipation of my move at the end of the year and the book made the move.

The book, The Greener Story by Graham Greener does discuss this gun. First glance in the book, it looks like you have a good one.

Greener produced these as the Miniature Service Rifle. Your description and pictures fit Greener's description perfectly. It appears to be an MS 55 grade, meaning 55 Guineas cost. It could be a MS 90 but looking at the stock I have my doubts. The guns were constructed so as the length and weight was equal of a service rifle. I suspect the lesser grade of this bun is because the stock appears to my eye to be a replacement. It just looks very "un-Greener " like. May wrong, but that is OK,

This not a Sharpshooter's Club Rifle as those were .310 caliber and had asmall action.

Oh, yes the cocking indicator is in wrong. When released it should point straight up. Take it out and tun it a 1/4 turn and put it back in.

Records on serial numbers after 22146 have been lost. 22146 is reported in 1909.

So , Yes you found a good one.

And S/F back at you!

 

The Link I Posted to Info on Greener Martinis

Has anyone bothered to open the link I posted to the Greener pages on the British Rifleman.org site? There is a black and white picture of a Greener rifle nearly identical to the one in this thread, right down to the long skinny barrel. Only the mounting of the rear sight is different. The rifle appears to not be unique, but rather a target competition model built by Greener from a military Martini. This is something Greener did a lot.

I also used to own a Martini 22 that was made from a large frame military style rifle. A few other Martini collectors suggested it might have been a Greener. There was no Greener maker's marking on the action, so I cannot say it was a Greener. Mine was either built or at least re-barraled by William Sukalle a noted gunsmith of the 50s. You can see the family resemblance:

PS: Never trust a safety. That's my suggestion and my policy.

There is no reason to load a round into the chamber of a target rifle, until you are ready to take the shot. While anyone is down range, setting or picking up targets, everyone is supposed to have their rifles and handguns unloaded and resting on the bench or in the rifle stand behind the bench. Failure to follow this procedure will get you ejected from any of the three clubs where I am or have been a member.

 

Has anyone bothered to open the link I posted to the Greener pages on the British Rifleman.org site? There is a black and white picture of a Greener rifle nearly identical to the one in this thread, right down to the long skinny barrel. Only the mounting of the rear sight is different. The rifle appears to not be unique, but rather a target competition model built by Greener from a military Martini. This is something Greener did a lot.

Yes indeed I did the open that page and the OP's gun is not one of the guns pictured. This gun is a purpose built by Greener called Miniature Service Rifle.

[/]I also used to own a Martini 22 that was made from a large frame military style rifle. A few other Martini collectors suggested it might have been a Greener. There was no Greener maker's marking on the action, so I cannot say it was a Greener. Mine was either built or at least re-barraled by William Sukalle a noted gunsmith of the 50s. You can see the family resemblance:

[/quote]

That gun, my gun now, is a Commercial Martini action that never was a Military gun and is not a Greener. I believe it may have been made by Braedlin Arms. I am not sure if was sold as a action only or as a complete rifle. Givien it's appearance, I suspect it was sold as an action onlyh. It certainly was however barreled by William Sukalle.

 

Gents,

Thanks for the replies and commentary! DoubleD, by the sounds of it you may have it pegged. I do not have a copy of The Greener Story, sounds like I should get myself a copy. Also thanks for the tip on the cocking indicator.

One of the features I really like about this rifle is the length of the barrel. I can actually see the front sight post clearly when looking through the rear aperature with it shouldered, whoooo hoooo! Bifocal glasses are SUCH a PITA... I also like the relatively light weight, don't need wheels to lug it around in the woods, nice!

As stated above the bore is quite pitted, not a sewer pipe but definitely pitted. If memory serves 10 or more per inch but still has rifling and will shoot OK but not good or better. I'm a shooter/hunter not a collector so anything I own gets shot, if I shoot it I want it to shoot well!

Seriously considering having it relined:

1. Who would your recommend to reline a Martini?

I've already spoken to Mark Chesboro of Cheseboro rifles and John Taylor from Taylor Machine in WA. Both seem like very good guys and knowledgeable.

Price quotes were close $425 - $500 depending on time. Mark uses a Redman liner which I believe is button lined and John said he uses a hammer forged liner which he feels is harder/more durable.

Mark states he would use an "eley" reamer and John stated he would probably use a "bentz" reamer.

Two areas of difference is that I asked them what their accuracy expectations would be at 50 yards (not fair to go farther given the post front sight). Mark didn't give a hard and fast group size but was quite positive that it would be a very good shooter. John was quite a bit more conservative, "some shoot very well and some do not, generally if it was originally a good shooter it will be a good shooter when relined, of not so good new then chances are that it would still be "not so good". When pressed for what "not so good" meant to him at 50 yards he stated the rifle should be able to do 2" at 50 yards.

Now I realize that was a very loaded question on my part. For all John knew I could have been a Dufus that could not hit the side of the barn when I was standing inside of it. I like to THINK I'm not a dufus and am proficient with the smoke poles (in my youth I was fortunate enough to win the National Inter-Service Long Range championship while in the Marines, M14) but HE did not know that. I would say that if the relined rifle could not do 2" at 100 yards I would probably be a bit disappointed (perfect conditions, good ammo).

John said he uses red locktite to lock the liner in place, I've got no problem with that. I forgot to ask Mark how he secures his.

Second major difference is that Mark stated he should be able to complete the job in 6-8 weeks and John quoted 6 months to a year. Good part about the long wait is that he must be good to have that much work!

2. Any feed back on the liners, Redman vs whatever brand is forged?

3. Anyone have personal experience with either of these gentlemen and the quality of their work that you could share?

4. While in the shop I'll also probably have them do a trigger job.

5. Any other recommendations for someone to do the relining that knows their way around a martini?

Thanks for the info guys, keep it coming!


Cheers!

Wade

 

Interesting Rifle built on a Large frame Action The foresight is a correct Greener the Mark is in fact WWG I have one on a Miniature Club.
I agree with DD except for the Price suggested 55 Guineas you could probably have bought a small house in those days as a Miniature club was only 3 Pounds or so.

I have a .303 marked as is that one as a short Rifle Military pattern stock and furniture probably made for use by the reserve /Territorial units of the day which shoots Very well I have had some wins at Bisley in Single shot military Rifle Comps.
I also have a Large Frame conversion to .22 by Greener for the Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs (SMRC) both are Pre WW1. I do not see any reason why a Relined one would not shoot very well indeed as do All Martini action with a decent non corroded bore.

TJ.

 

That is a very interesting rifle! My Model 12 has the exact same front sight, though the post is broken. I've got it apart now to fix the post, but it's marked "Martini" on the top of the ring. Also, the block it's mounted on, which appears to be soldered to the barrel, is not ramped.

I have no clue as to the value of an unusual or (rare?) Greener, but it does seem to me that the cost of the rifle and relining together would yield you an $800+ rifle, which buys a lot of Martini. I also agree that it appears to be restocked

Not to hijack the thread, but does anyone know what sort of globe sight would fit in the elevated front dovetail? I'd like to try to find one.

In the event, an exceptionally cool rifle!

 

I am sure I have read somewhere that the flip over sights were fitted to BSA 12s that were intended as sporting rather than target rifles.

Eddie

 

Gentlemen,

No comments, experience with the GS mentioned for relining or any other suggested GSs?

Don't hold back now, need some expert Martini advice!

Cheers!

Wade

 

John Taylor Machine. John uses Tj's liners. He has done a number fo guns for me.

I have used Redman's liners and they are just fine.

I have not used Mark Cheeseboro's services, but had heard he does a good job.

 

OP, you have a very interesting rifle. If it were mine, I think I would leave it as-is.
Relining it would be cost prohibitive, IMHO. And it's possible that it would be worth less to a collector, resulting in a double-dip loss to you in the event you ever decide to sell it. On the other hand, some folks believe in shooting all their firearms, and this is, of course, their right (and expense.) A few would probably shoot the Lincoln derringer.
Y

 

I have the same problem. I paid $400 for mine. To put another 400 into relining for a 2" group at 50 yds doesn't sound too attractive. I would try different kinds of ammo or possibly one of those tools to change the shape and size of the bullet. Mine has a safety which I have never used, I had my CZ 455 a year before I even tried the safe. I do depend on a safe on my shotgun and pistols but for me I have plenty of time with the rifles to drop the bolt or lever. This gun is an absolute joy to shoot so I'm not sure what to do.

 

Lizard

Stop being a ninny, you know you can't take it with you! . Just feline it and be done with it. I'm SURE it will shoot a whole lot better than 2" in at 50 yds, John was just doing a bit of cya as he did not know me from Adam.

If you love shooting it now you will REALLY enjoy shooting it after the reline. Beautiful stick by the way!

I'm not twisted over whether I should do it, financially not the best move but I'm like you love the rifle cauze it's different, interesting. Just want it to shoot up to its potential. I'm just trying to figure out who I should have do the work and which liner to use, Redman it TJ's....

Cheers!

Wade

 

wade, this ninny just met the enemy and it is me. I had trouble keeping a 1" group at 25 yds so I put a scope on it. The first shot is to the right. I moved 5 clicks to the left and fired 5 rounds. Before blaming the gun put a scope on it or have someone who is a good shooter try it. Old eyes cause mischief.

 

have had Redman reline several nice old singleshots. Very nice work. Shoots great.

 

This thread takes me back to '68, when I bought my first Martini, a large frame marked on the side "converted for the NRA by W.W. Greener." It was lined to 22RF and wore a PH globe on the barrel and a PH3A on the rear. The barrel was the same profile as in the above pics and had the soldered on sling ring as shown. Part of the rear frame was milled off taking half of the checkered depression. I was young and foolish then and rebarreled to 30/40AI. Not complaining but prolly should have kept it original. I also foolishly sold the PH rear sight a while back, now want it back, gonna put an ad in the proper place. Love those Martinis! GW

 

a properly set-up martini the firing block rises enough to keep the round in the chamber so you can have a round chambered ,you cannot fire and it cannot be accidently set off with the block lowered THAT'S YOUR SAFETY,

 

One things clear...

It may not have been the subject of the thread, but there are some pretty strong opinions on what constitutes a "safety" on a single shot rifle....

Cheers!

Wade

 

It may not have been the subject of the thread, but there are some pretty strong opinions on what constitutes a "safety" on a single shot rifle....

Cheers!

Wade

With firearms the only safety that matters is the one between your ears, mechanical stuff fails regularly, if we keep our grubby fingers off the trigger and keep the gun pointed in a safe direction there would be no accidental shootings. The most important thing we can do as gun owners is promote safe handling and not give the anti folks cause to further destroy our rights.

 

As I have said many times, I never chamber a round in a target rifle unless the rifle is aimed at the target and there is no one down range. An open bolt or open action with an empty chamber is the only safety that I trust.

If you are carrying a firearm in a hostile situation, be it dangerous game or armed combatants, having a round in the chamber is prudent. At a rifle range or any other situation where your life is not in danger, there is no reason to chamber a round until you are ready to fire.

 

As I have said many times, I never chamber a round in a target rifle unless the rifle is aimed at the target and there is no one down range. An open bolt or open action with an empty chamber is the only safety that I trust.

If you are carrying a firearm in a hostile situation, be it dangerous game or armed combatants, having a round in the chamber is prudent. At a rifle range or any other sitiation where your life is not in danger, there is no reason to chamber a round until you are ready to fire.

Agreed 100%

If just one person notes what we are harping about they will be a safer shooter.

 

Guys,

Thanks for all the responses, was a very interesting to learn more about this particular rifle, appears to be a bit of a rare bird! I kept the rifle for about a month and a half trying to convince myself that I REALLY needed it but I was honest enough with myself to recognize 2 points:

1. With bifocals the sights, even with aperatures, was just too much of a PITA. My shots at starlings are typically at around 65 yards and just too far with these sights and just would not be right to try to scope something as cool as this.

2. Bore quite pitted. Actually shot quite well, better than I expected actually given it's condition but I know myself well enough to know that I would not be happy until I had the barrel re-lined and that aint a cheap date.

So handed it back to the owner. Asking price was $450.

Cheers!

Wade
Semper Fi!