While I agree with most everything you say, I don't see any American company ever producing such quality target rifles ever again. The 52s and 37s were so labor intensive back then that Winchester and Remington probably didn't have much margin in them even when skilled labor was "cheap". Now it's all about the numbers.

 

While I agree with most everything you say, I don't see any American company ever producing such quality target rifles ever again. The 52s and 37s were so labor intensive back then that Winchester and Remington probably didn't have much margin in them even when skilled labor was "cheap". Now it's all bout the numbers.

I agree with you on this. The original flier had the winchesters selling for $150 to $189 . Now the guns are worth a whole lot more. I know i left out a whole lot of information, but i wasnt sure anyone would want to set and read all of that. Im just really upset with the way our home manufactures have just fallen out on just a solid good rimfire. Whether target or sporter. If they would produce one i would surely buy one and give it a try. I purchased a winchester xpert for my son. It was cheap thats for sure but i was so dissapointed on the chamber cut when i stuck the bore camera in. You get what you pay for but winchester just doesnt make anything like that anymore and its upsetting. Remington only make a pump and semi-automatic. Neither that you can even get at the present time nor is the accuracy worth paying for. I collect the old 52's and 40x target rifles. They are good quality target rifles and accurate. If they would just make some rifles today that would compete with the overseas rifles they could bring their sells back up and offer the integrity and quality that built the industry years ago. Sadly i dont think this is going to happen. I believe they are more concerned with the centerfire line of rifles. Thanks for the input i really hope some people will chime in on this .

 

Thankfully none of my rifles owns a borescope (or knows how to use one)

Thankfully WHAT a bore looks like has nearly zero to do with how it shoots.

Lamenting over the past is pointless.

Modern machining can (and does) produce far far superior tolerances and machining/fit than the offerings of yesterday.

The $300 Winchester Xpert or 10/22 will shoot circles around the hand built old world craftsmanship of a Winchester 63 and will do it at a quarter of the cost.

Lastly if the new stuff is such junk why don't we see the old war horses of yesterday at the top of the scoreboard any longer?

Nobody and I mean nobody loves the Winchester 52 more than I do, and nobody dislikes Anschutz more than I do (that's not really true I admire Anschutz craftsmanship but I live to give the Anschutz guys grief)

There's zero market for the 52 & 37/40 of days gone by. There are however some amazing rifles built today that are less expensive and better shooters. I won't sell my 52's or 37 ever, but I do know their limits.

Those days are long over. Remington went bankrupt and it's assets sold off. The 'new' Rem Arms is owned by an investor group that moved out of Ilion, NY and away from some talented workers. Winchester was sold, split, and dissected with assets going to FN Herstal, Belgium and Browning. Even the Winchester/Browning 52 reproduction was made in Japan by Miroku, as were/are many other Winchester long guns.
Today, the masses want Ruger Wranglers and Americans. Relatively easy to produce, economical, and suitable for buckets of golden bullets. I am not knocking any of those, they are fun and reliable. Performance and engineering junkies are going to gravitate towards Vudoo, RimX and the like. Custom and semi-custom that are pushing the engineering and performance envelope, but lack warmth of deep bluing and warm carlo walnut. The used market for the 52's, 40x, 37's, 39's appears to fulfill the needs for those of us left that want that sort of craftsmanship. Kimber didn't stop selling 82 Super Americas because they were selling like hotcakes and Cooper got Nighthawk to buy them out.

I heard here a few weeks ago from a dealer that cooper was having a hard time getting parts for their rifles and started using anchutz parts to finish them out. He had ordered some rifles for a customer and was having a hard time getting them. He called cooper and that was the answer they gave him.

 

Winchester with their the Model 70, and Remington with their Model 700 - that's like having a license to print money.

With each of them failing to do so profitably, how on earth would they also not fail at producing a competitive quality rimfire in what is a tighter market.

 

It's been a long time since winchester and remington have put out a target rimfire rifle, or even a good accurate sporter...
...If cz can sale a accurate rifle for $500 to $600 usd and sale them like m&m's, then Winchester and Remington can do the same. They just might be surprised how many Americans would buy their rifles again.

Those days are long over. Remington went bankrupt and it's assets sold off. The 'new' Rem Arms is owned by an investor group that moved out of Ilion, NY and away from some talented workers. Winchester was sold, split, and dissected with assets going to FN Herstal, Belgium and Browning. Even the Winchester/Browning 52 reproduction was made in Japan by Miroku, as were/are many other Winchester long guns.
Today, the masses want Ruger Wranglers and Americans. Relatively easy to produce, economical, and suitable for buckets of golden bullets. I am not knocking any of those, they are fun and reliable. Performance and engineering junkies are going to gravitate towards Vudoo, RimX and the like. Custom and semi-custom that are pushing the engineering and performance envelope, but lack warmth of deep bluing and warm carlo walnut. The used market for the 52's, 40x, 37's, 39's appears to fulfill the needs for those of us left that want that sort of craftsmanship. Kimber didn't stop selling 82 Super Americas because they were selling like hotcakes and Cooper got Nighthawk to buy them out.

 

when you see him tell him I bought a bucket of bullets to help out. I shot today a 1712 and lapua I came in second. there was two of us shooting

 

I'd say it's market demand together with capital outlay vs return. Simply, quality target rifles are expensive to make, which limits demand. Couple low demand with costs for developing and manufacturing a highly accurate rifle and the gains won't be attractive to a large company.

Fundamentally Winchester and Remington ignored developments in ergonomics and continued to churn out planks in place of a stock. The 52 International or 40X IMR were too little and too late.

 

I'd say it's market demand together with capital outlay vs return. Simply, quality target rifles are expensive to make, which limits demand. Couple low demand with costs for developing and manufacturing a highly accurate rifle and the gains won't be attractive to a large company.

Fundamentally Winchester and Remington ignored developments in ergonomics and continued to churn out planks in place of a stock. The 52 International or 40X IMR were too little and too late.

I agree that demand is the driver to the issue... we use the term target rifle, but did you ever consider how little target shooting is done these days? We members here see it a little, but we, as a group are involved hobbyists- and we do not represent the vast majority of rifle owners.

Target shooting, and especially position shooting ( which was a primary use of the good old target guns mentioned in this thread) is treading water and slowly drowning in the U.S. and indeed in the world. Low demand means low or no production, and no incentive to produce what would be a low margin, low volume product.

Simply the way I see it, and I'm sure not happy about it, as I own scores of the good old guns- domestic and Euro.

 

I remember, growing-up, one would go to their local gun store, and all of the .22 rimfire rifles were ALL made in the U.S.A. Winchester & Remington, along with Marlin and Savage were the only rifles in store. These rifles were well made, and lasted a lifetime so it might be handed down to the next generation. Today's .22 rimfires are "JUNK" with their cheap plastic parts, most made in another country. Gone are the days of classic .22 rifles like the Model 75 or 52 Winchesters, along with Model 37 Remington and others made by the two U.S. Companies. <SAD> 😞

 

As referenced, the companies were bought out. For decades corporations have been bought out by investment bankers that are only interested in maximum profits. They are not interested in legacy, tradition quality or low volume production. So, we have mass produced guns by major corporations. However, demand for low volume target rifles is now filled by small private companies like Vudoo and others. High quality rifles like Cooper and Kimber may or may not survive. They seem very expensive but when you take in account inflation, they aren't bad at all. I remember buying a new Buick for $3600. And as mentioned they are more accurate than the nice old classics. I love my old Remington and Winchesters but I shoot CZ's for matches. Also parts are getting hard to come by for old stuff because the old companies are just names on new products.

 

On bolt action 22s Ruger has path with the 77/22. Is the market there for Traditional Rimfire target rifles? These ugly breed of bolt guns built on AR looking platforms are the rage today. Basically what you have is like a Test Rifle. Barrel mated to bolt with nothing else in the equation. No wood stock with
Pressure Points or Free Float issues. Even synthetic models of Traditional Wooden Stocks can cause accuracy issues.
A rifle is accurate or it isn’t. A old model rifle that is a tack driver is no less a tack driver because a new generation rifle is one too. The new generation rifles are cheaper because of automation vs human workmanship and hi tech/ synthetic materials vs milled steel. Basically headed for Bench Shooting with one difference. The least human involvement.

 

I have Win 63 which is more accurate than I can shot it with stock sights and I wouldn’t think of drilling holes in it. I also have a 1st year of production Ruger 77/22 with nothing done but trigger job and a Redfield 4x scope. It has outshot many Rem 541Ts and several other hi end Sporters. I did have a 77/Hornet which I couldn’t get to shoot. Sent it down the road. I know several 77/22 owners who you would have a hard time convincing they are poor shooters.
I think this is more of the bad ones get all the noise. When weather gets better I will shoot some 5shot 40yd groups with it. That’s where it’s tuned for squirrel hunting purposes.

 

Ive really enjoyed all the input. I thank everyone who has put in on this. I also thank everyone for being nice to one another. I know that sometimes we can get a bit deffensive when it comes to politican lol. I hope you all have a great rest of the day. God Bless all of you.
P.S. Ive also learned something from you all as well.

 

I'm just glad Remington is back after bankruptcy. I've got several of their shotguns and might need parts at a later date.

 

There are a lot of factors involved. Price is important; most people equate rimfire with inexpensive fun and would never cough up what it would cost to make those older classic firearms again. Some of it is change in tastes; no desire for walnut and polished & blued machined steel. Many younger shooters grew up on the "tactical" appearance and the classic guns look like antiquity to them. The world of manufacturing has changed too. Things just aren't constructed that way any more. It's labor intensive and time consuming. Parts are being made of polymers and castings; synthetics, fast finishes, etc., all cut manufacturing time.

I still prefer the walnut and steel but nothing stays the same forever.

 

Cz doesn't make any 3 position stocks or prone stocks for their variation of a match rifle but they do have a silhouette stock on the cz mtr.

Honestly curious, having bought a 457 At-One a few months ago, it seems like it would be suitable for prone shooting, though I haven't tried it . . . yet. At 78 I have to be concerned with getting back on my feet again. So my question is, how does a proper "prone stock" differ from some of the more vertical grip/palm swell stocks that CZ is using?

 

good question. I never thought about the at one variation of the 457. The at one is a lot like a match, and international match prone stock with some differences. Some of the international match prone stocks came with a hook on the butt plate to hook under the under arm of the shoulder to support the rifle off the sling. They also came with a rail freeland, or anchutz for a hand stop, and hand support addapter. From my knowledge the at one just has a sling swivel on the front of the forearm for a bipod or sling attachment. The at one does come with a adjustable butt plate for length of pull and adjustable cheek piece.Good question and i stand corrected on that.I didnt consider it. But im not knocking CZ USA they make a great rifle . They really do. Ive alway wanted Winchester to and Remington to build us a rifle once more to compete with these overseas rifles. Ive won a many of matches with a cz 452 varmint and a 455 precision trainer . Ive owned almost every variation that cz has produced. Some where good shooters some werent like all guns some shoot some dont. If they shoot good if they dont sell it and get another one. Trial and error.

 

I love target shooting at giant pumpkins at five feet. I call it minute of giant pumpkin.

 

I have two Mossberg 144 LSA's, 100% original with all accessories including proper sights in excellent condition in every way. They shot "extremely" well. IMHO

 

I object to the thought put forward in the original post. My 2 prime target rifles are a Ruger 10-22 Target, and a Savage B model heavy brl.. Both of these rifles shoot groups that are way beyond their price. The 10-22T is pretty amazing when used with SK std +. Ditto with the Savage.. Since I am an avid reader of Rimfire Central, I see all the groups that are posted here, and my Ruger and Savage shoots with the best of them. The CZ's produce their best results with an aftermarket barrel. Not so with my original barrels on my 2 rifles.

 

I have the American Target, and the PRS. Both shoot quite well.

 

Sadly, most within the younger, new generations of American firearms buyers have no interest in the type of highly crafted, accurate, attractive, durable rifles we oldsters appreciate and prefer. If the mass market is not there, it won't be made. And what a shame, considering the incredible capabilities of CNC machining and modern technology.

In my not so objective opinion, the average buyer in these younger American generations has no taste. It's that simple. Watch him and listen as he walks the gun show. His customer pattern is: It's pretty, I want it, gonna buy it, use it up, throw it away. Life is that simple for these people. Thus, today's dumpsters are gold mines.

But all that is the good news for the rest of us. It keeps the purchase price of the older, good stuff from escalating as much and as fast as it might. Particularly, I'm always on the lookout for a top quality gun with some minor gunsmithing problem which I can easily fix, which I then do, having acquired it for a low bargained price.

But what happens to all this good stuff when you are ready to part with some of it, or pass on?

There's that open dumpster lid, grinning at you again.

Most of my older area gun collector friends bring up this same issue regularly, and all conclude that it is headed nowhere good.

We all end up grinning and proposing the same solution, to all of life's problems:

BUY MORE GUNS. Sometimes, the stupidity of others is your friend.

 

Sadly, most within the younger, new generations of American firearms buyers have no interest in the type of highly crafted, accurate, attractive, durable rifles we oldsters appreciate and prefer. If the mass market is not there, it won't be made. And what a shame, considering the incredible capabilities of CNC machining and modern technology.

In my not so objective opinion, the average buyer in these younger American generations has no taste. It's that simple. Watch him and listen as he walks the gun show. His customer pattern is: It's pretty, I want it, gonna buy it, use it up, throw it away. Life is that simple for these people. Thus, today's dumpsters are gold mines.

But all that is the good news for the rest of us. It keeps the purchase price of the older, good stuff from escalating as much and as fast as it might. Particularly, I'm always on the lookout for a top quality gun with some minor gunsmithing problem which I can easily fix, which I then do, having acquired it for a low bargained price.

But what happens to all this good stuff when you are ready to part with some of it, or pass on?

There's that open dumpster lid, grinning at you again.

Most of my older area gun collector friends bring up this same issue regularly, and all conclude that it is headed nowhere good.

We all end up grinning and proposing the same solution, to all of life's problems:

BUY MORE GUNS. Sometimes, the stupidity of others is your friend.

well said..i watch estate sales and consignment sales...almost addictive

 

Circles.

A Kidd or Volquartsen 10/22 pattern rifle (which win matches on a daily bases) will run circles around a 63. It's why you don't see anyone competing with a 63

The ARA factory class has about 800+ competitors now and I would love to shoot my 52 but they aren’t legal in the class. I don’t know why so many people buy CZ’s, I thought they were supposed to shoot good. The two I have are not competitive and there were about another 12 purchased by club members and none will compete with a Tikka. I own 2 Tikka’s and one Bergara that will shoot competitively in the factory class. That’s only three out of more than dozen 22’s I have.

 

Not to be controversial, but I shot an ARA match on Saturday with my CZ MTR and posted a perfect score, 2500. Me thinks it’s the shooter and conditions that vary, not the equipment.

 

Winchester name is still ok in my experience. I grew up shooting MOD 97, MOD 12, MOD 21 side by side and MOD 92 44-40 & 357 mag, shotguns and rifles. What great shotguns and rifles. As I got older dad accumulated a bunch of Miroku Charles Daley O/U, plain looking but solid and top quality. Since then Miroku MOD 23 side by side, nice looking sponsor gun and feel quality and strength tops the old MOD 21. The Miroku MOD 12 20ga is slim and fun to shoot and don't forget the countless remakes of older leveractioss out of Miroku that Winchester commissioned and probably could not have afforded to do here. Best of all the newer MOD 70 sporting rifles via FN shoot well (have 4 that are sub MOA shooters). Back to rimfire, when you go to a bench rest shoot its American made custom actions built up with American barrels, small bore silhouette is much the same. The new hot game of NRL22 and PRS22 matches is VUDOO and RimX rifles all American sourced barrels triggers and stocks/chassis. Quality still they're just not at the big corporations, not at smaller "craft" producers.

 

Vudoo? The only made in the USA that is comparable to Win 52 and Rem 37s.

 

My observation has been that people like new things (cars, clothes, guns, etc.). Not so much because they are better, but because they are new, like it's best to be seen with new stuff. Most consumers are price conscious, at least more so than us Rimfire Central folk. Most people are happy, or even thrilled with a flat black plastic stock. Anything with a wood stock is struggling for niche market share.

After WW II, foreign manufacturers were forced to assemble new, better tooling and tweaked their gun designs along the way. Meanwhile, manufacturers in the US failed to see the train bearing down on them and did not up their game. My own "ah-ha" moment occurred in the early to mid-sixties when an ex-AMU shooter (and you have no idea the esteem I hold for those people) at our club bought a new Winchester 52, and promptly set about getting a new barrel, new tirgger, and a custom stock for the gun. Remchester never had a chance.

Production in the US is expensive. Our high standard of living does not come cheaply. Anything remotely associated with the word "environmental" is expensive. Regulations, and I'll say no more. It's no wonder we export so much of today's manufacturing overseas.

 

It's so nice to hear everyones thoughts, opinions and knowledge on this topic. This is one excellent thread for sure.

 

I agree with everything written here. I have shot bench rest 22 and 4 position small bore as well, and love good shooting 22's! That's why about 10 years ago I collected all five mint Remington 541's, a 504 that is extremely accurate, and a low digit Kimber 82 from Oregon, and a CZ 452 for just $250! All of them shoot 3/4" or less at 50 yards after finding what ammo they liked, what's wrong with that? I recently bought a Browning (Japan) T-Bolt. I tested 8 different boxes of Match ammo, and all shot terrible at 30 yards, around 1 1/2"....until.... I shot the SK Rifle Match, and shazam! One small hole!

No, nothing much out there that compares to the "old" ones, but trust me, there were some darn nice guns that can perform that were made in the 90's that shoot every bit as well as my 10 year old cz452.

 

Back in the late 60's I picked up a Remington 513T, with bull barrel and Redfield adjustable peep sights. This is the most accurate .22 rifle I ever shot, (and I've had a few). I loaned it to friends to shoot in local contests while I was in the Air Force, they did very well. I only have two rimfires currently, but I don't shoot them. Shoot handguns mostly.