The Miroku guns are very well made.
If the condition was identical, I would go with the Belgium rifle every time. The engraving was hand engraved and the collectible value will always be more. The identification scribes on the Belgium rifle would concern me. If it is on the bolt, then maybe it would still be worth it. I would ask for a discount.
The 1965 model is not D&T for a barrel mounted scope. A 1963 model would still have the old style stock with a grip screw. These stocks are not available as far as I know.

 

Well made, beautiful, and accurate shooters. I own four 1885s, three in .22 and one in .38-55. I like the ones imported by US Repeating Arms because they look so similar to the 85s made back in the day~!

 

No expert but not a fan of any gun with prior owners personal "ID's" carved/stamped on them. Also wrapping in "bubble tape" might make noremf (rest in peace) spin. The former owner's ID's would send me to the Miroku gun.

 

While, both are good guns, I’d go for the Miroku unless you can find a good Belgium bolt cheap.
the previous owners numbers scribed are a big no for me. I don’t ever buy any firearms with those modifications. That includes scribed “police dept numbers” . I don’t know why guys didn’t just record the danged serial number. I mean it’s right there already on the rifle.

If the Belgian isn’t drilled and tapped, you may want the Miroku, as I can’t see the little sights.

I had a much longer reply explaining all the pluses and minuses.
but the wonderful system decided to puke it out and not post my reply.

 

To me, the answer is "Neither one".

The breechblock numbers kill the value unless you can locate another one. Most guys will pass on such a gun. The proper one will have three proof marks. Some of the later Belgian guns only had one. Myself, I couldn't stand to look at someone's number.If I couldn't find a proper one, I would put a new Miroku block in it.
As it sits, it's a shooter grade. Even with another block, it's still a shooter grade, but one that should hold it value a little better.
Remember, you buy guns because you like them, not because of some so called investment angle. I love blonde French walnut, you obviously don't. That's another strike against it.
Ahhh,...Does the younger set even care about collectability or just utility?
Someone out there has a NIB Miroku that is truly NIB. It shouldn't be that hard to find.
The right stuff often takes a little extra effort.
Have you gone to an actual gun shop, one that might have or order in a fresh example, and not just a big box store?

 

My advice is to buy neither and keep looking...no matter which you buy, someone here will tell you that you bought the wrong one...I've had a very so-so Japanese, a very nice Japanese I gave to my DIL and a late model Belgium I've kept.

 

If you take your time, a great Belgium SA-22 will show up.

The key is keeping your eyes open, and money in your pocket, for when that time arrives.

 

I had heard that Miroku had changed some of the rifle when it was first sent to Japan for manufacturing. Had to do with the way the barrel attaches to the receiver.

 

Is there a possibility of "salt wood" in SA22s?
Rust bleeding into wood would be suspect. I would remove wood and look at blued surfaces for rust.

 

Im not an xpert. But , the some of the older FN guns have a fixed detent to secure the barrel ring. Over time this cuts a greoove in the ring, and wears down the detent , so much so the
at you cant get the action tight enough to be accurate. These parts can be replaced with the newer parts , that have spring loaded detents, but the Miroku comes with them. And fixes for all the other known foibles of the older ones.

if you want an undinged gun from bp or cb, they do have boxed ones in the back sometimes.


im not a big fan of the glossy stock gun. And I would buy a FN in french walnut , If all you want is a good shooter, shop around for an in the box undinged Miroku. Or do like I did , and buy a Norinco ATD for 1/2 the money.

This place always has a great sel3ction of used fns Simpson Ltd

 

I agree holding out would be best, but I think I would prefer the Belgian version, given an either/or scenario. I also like blonde wood on the ATDs. The Belgian will retain value better, even with the SS# engraved on the bolt. It wouldn't bother me personally, but you could just take your time and eventually locate a replacement bolt.

From a mechanics point of view, I rather liked the earlier through-the-wrist stock bolted versions. The later ones used a couple of variations to hold the stock on, and they all work just fine, but I like the fact it is completely separate. I also like the grooved receiver rifles, since I seldom take my SA-22s down, the rear sight can remain on the barrel, and the cantilever mounts are either the flimsy, aluminum vintage ones, the massive and bulky steel ones, or the slightly bulky and gaudy current ones. There are others, I know, but they fall into these categories.

I know this may rustle some feathers, but I have owned quite a few and worked on many more SA-22s, and I have the impression that the Miroku versions use slightly harder steel. This is based on the wear I've seen on the barrel tenon threads and the threads in the receiver on the Belgian models. Now, I know the Belgian rifles are older and have probably been taken down more, but even the Japanese rifles with many takedowns seem to have better looking threads. Just my subjective view. I doesn't matter much to me, since, like I said, I seldom take mine down, but I thought I would offer that.

So, as pure shooters, especially if you plan to take it down often for storage in a luggage case, I would go with the Miroku rifles and not worry about resale value. If you plan to shoot it a lot and take it down a little, I would go Belgian.

JMO

TBR

 

Sportsmans Warehouse has the SA22 for the same price and the ones I've seen at the counter are always in perfect condition. Probably because they don't take them down every night and put them away? At the moment they show them out of stock but it would be simple to get on a notification list for when they are in stock or order one for pick up...

Comes right down to it, I prefer the early Belgium versions with the light wood but they are few and far between these days and most guys seem to think they are gold plated if you look at the prices they are asking.. I prefer the collectibility but I would take a Miroku version without any hesitation if one was offered for the right price also. For me, mounting a scope on one of these tiny rifles always seemed to look a bit out of place and I preferred to shoot them with open sights anyway. I have plenty of rifles with scopes mounted, but these always seemed like a great rifle for just wandering around the woods and taking targets of opportunity with open sights... but that is just me...

Bob

 

Thanks all for the replies. I appreciate all the input. I'm not in a rush to buy anything, I've just had a recent interest in older designs of rimfire wood/steel guns....also looking to add a 39A and 9422 to my collection. But what I'm finding is that the guns found locally are incredibly overpriced and junk compared to what I'm seeing on Gunbroker. For example, I found a very nice, nearly pristine, mid 60's 39A (no box or any papers) but they wanted $1399.....on GB that'd buy we a spectacular example from what I'm seeing....but I may not know enough to understand why they're asking that much, which is why I'm here trying to research and learn all I can.

I'm going to look a few others this afternoon at another LGS, actually they say they have four in stock, which was hard to believe (maybe bought someone's collection?)....priced from $499 to $699, two Belgium two Miroku....condition varies...

I'm honestly just looking for a shooter not necessarily a collector for collector's sake. Because as I said before, a near perfect highly collectible rifle wouldn't be "perfect" for me as it would never get shot, that's not what I want. But, if a Belgium made gun, for around the same price as a NIB Miroku, would be worth more in say 30 years when my son inherits my guns then I'd rather have the Belgium made one (does that make sense?) It sounds like this may be the case. If I buy a "NIB" gun, in 30 years, it will likely have "used but in good condition" marks/wear and be in equivalent condition. I understand there's no way to know what the future market may bring.

I understand the quality if very similar. And, if I really like the gun, I'll almost certainly get another one. "Both" is always the best answer.

I did ask BPS if they had a new one in the back, they didn't. Nor would they order one for me but the told me I could order it online, which I couldn't because there was no SKU for it.... I also asked 4 different LGS and NONE would order one for me. For the love of God why do they hate money? The one place that would order one, wanted $899 for the $699 gun...I also am in disbelief that you guys "talk down" the price. I've asked, I alway ask on used guns for sure. But not once, in 20 years of buying guns, has anyone every budged other than maybe saving tax with cash.....what am I doing wrong?

I'm also looking for the 39A, 9422, maybe another 1906 to accompany my "first gun at age 12" 1906, and any of the "good" Remington pump actions...So I'm new to this "collecting" if you can call it that. I've got about two dozen other "modern" firearms, but I've become bored with them and looking for something with character. I'm sure I'll buy some "misses" as I start out, which is ok. To me, if I loose $200 on a Belgium SA-22 by selling it for say $400 in two year (and paying say $600 now) then that's ok, I got to have it for two year, shoot it and enjoy it for $200.

So while I may still buy a new one, I'll just be patient on the used market. I do love the hunt!

 

Thanks all for the replies. I appreciate all the input. I'm not in a rush to buy anything, I've just had a recent interest in older designs of rimfire wood/steel guns....also looking to add a 39A and 9422 to my collection. But what I'm finding is that the guns found locally are incredibly overpriced and junk compared to what I'm seeing on Gunbroker. For example, I found a very nice, nearly pristine, mid 60's 39A (no box or any papers) but they wanted $1399.....on GB that'd buy we a spectacular example from what I'm seeing....but I may not know enough to understand why they're asking that much, which is why I'm here trying to research and learn all I can.

I'm going to look a few others this afternoon at another LGS, actually they say they have four in stock, which was hard to believe (maybe bought someone's collection?)....priced from $499 to $699, two Belgium two Miroku....condition varies...

I'm honestly just looking for a shooter not necessarily a collector for collector's sake. Because as I said before, a near perfect highly collectible rifle wouldn't be "perfect" for me as it would never get shot, that's not what I want. But, if a Belgium made gun, for around the same price as a NIB Miroku, would be worth more in say 30 years when my son inherits my guns then I'd rather have the Belgium made one (does that make sense?) It sounds like this may be the case. If I buy a "NIB" gun, in 30 years, it will likely have "used but in good condition" marks/wear and be in equivalent condition. I understand there's no way to know what the future market may bring.

I understand the quality if very similar. And, if I really like the gun, I'll almost certainly get another one. "Both" is always the best answer.

I did ask BPS if they had a new one in the back, they didn't. Nor would they order one for me but the told me I could order it online, which I couldn't because there was no SKU for it.... I also asked 4 different LGS and NONE would order one for me. For the love of God why do they hate money? The one place that would order one, wanted $899 for the $699 gun...I also am in disbelief that you guys "talk down" the price. I've asked, I alway ask on used guns for sure. But not once, in 20 years of buying guns, has anyone every budged other than maybe saving tax with cash.....what am I doing wrong?

I'm also looking for the 39A, 9422, maybe another 1906 to accompany my "first gun at age 12" 1906, and any of the "good" Remington pump actions...So I'm new to this "collecting" if you can call it that. I've got about two dozen other "modern" firearms, but I've become bored with them and looking for something with character. I'm sure I'll buy some "misses" as I start out, which is ok. To me, if I loose $200 on a Belgium SA-22 by selling it for say $400 in two year (and paying say $600 now) then that's ok, I got to have it for two year, shoot it and enjoy it for $200.

So while I may still buy a new one, I'll just be patient on the used market. I do love the hunt!

Yes the hunt is what drives you in some cases it can be just as satisfying as the end result. Personally I like the oil finished early rifles with blonde wood and grooved receivers and wheel sights.. From where I am sitting you will probably end up with all of them eventually . Do it right do your research and buy the best condition that you can there are still very nice ones out there.Do get yourself a winchester model 61.

 

Shop Simpsons, Simpson Ltd I do it daily. Heres another one that I like We Buy Guns Store they have a d3cent Marlin 39 right now.

 

Wow that was quite a post u had there. Basically what I got from that was Your interested in everything. I'm not sure why you would buy a firearm with the intent of losing money. Who does that. But ur angry when the LGS wants 900.00 for a 700.00 gun. Place I work has lots of guns , wholesaler , every brand , every caliber, someone said 100 M in inventory . We have exactly 3 SA 22 in stock grade 1 . Three. That should speak volumes to how popular that gun is. 1 SA 22 AAA grade . Thousands of guns in stock and we have 4 total guns the kind you most desire. Henry Repeating Arms on the other hand we get pallet loads in every week.
Smart money says buy a nice Golden Boy.

 

Neither. I just got a 1973 Belgium gun for my granddaughter (ok, so she's a newborn.... someone has to teach her when she's in her thirty's) in GREAT shape for $650 on GB... Keep on lookin

 

I have two Belgian SA22s, one was my father's, and a 1990s Miroku. I had the Miroku's barrel threaded for a suppressor and it's also D & T for a canti scope mount. I have the Browning factory mount and also a close copy that's a Pickatinny rail... I am going to install the latter to support using a thermal sight.

While the Belgian guns are more collectible and my father's rifle is under 1" at 50 yards, I'd think a new Miroku is every bit the as good if not better in fit and finish as an equivalent grade Belgian rifle, and likely to be more accurate. We've learned a lot about commercial barrel-making in 60 years. So if you're buying a rifle to shoot, go new Miroku.

 

I also vote for neither. For me, life is too short to settle for buying guns from dealers that can't take care of them and damage them while they are in their inventory. There are a few dealers that have tables at gunshows that I regularly attend that can't take care of guns. If they have to pack and unpack them a couple of times, the guns are bound to have some damage.

 

Another vote for neither.
I know as a gun (or anything else) gets used it will get some scratches and marks. That’s part of it. But I believe that a “new” item should be 100% perfect. So I’d pass on the “new” one. And it sounds like the old one is just too rough to have much value. Especially with the engravings. I think you’ll regret buying either one of them.

 

I have a 1960 Belgian made one. It’s a family heirloom and I love it and will NEVER sell it or let it go. I do take it to the range and although it’s a clean rifle it’s seen use and one can tell. It’s great gun and the odd time I bench rest it it groups pretty decent at 25yards for shooting with iron sights. (don’t have good enuff eyes for iron sights at 100yards) .

But if I were just buying one to shoot with no sentimental value to either. I would 100% choose the new models especially at the same price. For the drilled at tapped barrel alone. Offers more flexibility. At the cost of nothing to you. Unless your buying guns as an investment there is really no reason to choose the older model I feel.

 

Me personally, a Miroku. I have 5 of the SA’s, and 8 Winchesters from them. They are all outstanding.
My last shotgun that I bought, I was looking real hard at a Browning Silver till I saw it was designed in Belgium, and assembled in the Philippines. I bought a Benelli instead.

 

I can only speak from my recent experience. I bought a Browning SA-22 made in Japan at Cabelas/Bass Pro Shop and they had to get it from either another store or their main distr center. It arrived in perfect condition. It has pretty Grade 1 furniture. I am not a fan of lacquered stocks but since it looks fantastic I will give it a bye. I am afraid that if I scratch it or nick it, the finish would be difficult or impossible to cover up.
I personally would go with the new one. But if you admit you will likely ding it up, go with something that has more of a natural walnut finish that imperfections are not as noticeable. As far as the 1963 Belgium . . . if you plan on shooting it alot. I would be a little concerned that the age might be a negative. Cosmetically it may look great but you do not know how it was stored and cared for during the last 60+ years.

 

The thread is over two years old.
The finish for many decades has been polyurethane, not lacquer.
Minor defects can be taken out with a polishing wheel, though guns can be like a new car. Once they pick up a ding or a nick, they can be easier to enjoy. You live with the defect and don’t worry much about the possibility of another.
I wouldn’t hesitate for a second with shooting an older one, and I do.
I’m the original owner of a 1968 model.