Frustrating I'm sure.....😑

 

How bad are these flyers? A chrono might show if the flyers were a bit high or lower than the rest of the box on velocity. That would indicate a lot problem. How many lots of each have you tried? I sometimes need to test 5 or more lots to find the good one. Since I am shooting 9 rifles in several disciplines I solved the lot problem by find one or more guns will shoot a lot well so I buy 1/2 case every time available. Some gun will shoot a lot tolerable. But for one gun it truly is the lottery. I remember the good old days when I could order 2 boxes each of 4 lots and if one shot well call the dealer and order all he had of that lot. Now all his stock is gone in 15 minutes! You really need to set your tuner indoors if possible. I find even 25 yards indoors better that the best day outdoors at 50 yards. Always some little breeze that complicates the effort.

 

.... A chrono might show if the flyers were a bit high or lower than the rest of the box on velocity......

FWIW (and $3.50 may get you a small cup of coffee @ Starbucks):

Considering how much you have invested in the rig, a good chrono is not expensive...relatively speaking.

The vertical stringing sounds like ammo variation and a chrono should be able to verify if there was a velocity change when the shot went high or low. If the chrono does (edit) not note a variation in velocity then something else is in play.

For 'round the clock' shots, after the tuner adjustment made an inprovement, a chrono might verify a velocity change for the occasional flyer.

 

Well, I don’t think you could spend much more money on your equipment. I’d suggest that the “ammo lottery” is always in play; and, the label on the box is just a start. While I have some hunches, I’ll save those and follow, with interest, the feedback from the experienced, credible shooters here. Good luck.

 

You might just be experiencing what I do with my 2500X. I can do pretty well with it when there's at least some wind. However, when the wind lays or I'm shooting indoors it simply doesn't do as well. I've had some good targets but it's very inconsistent. My scores aren't bad but not as good as most of the competition I'm shooting against. My X3L does the same thing but maybe not quite as bad. I'm not sure if it's the rifles, tune, ammo, or me

 

What action screw torque do you have on your 2500X? Do you think on the windless days when the air is not mixed that the bullet is travelling through layers of air at different temperatures, thus density, or even different layers of humidity?

 

You have tested 2 lots of L and are frustrated?????? Report back when you have tested 10 or more and have the same issues.

 

Maybe in the next 100 years I may come across 8 more lots of "L"

 

I would suspect vertical stringing more likely to be related to action torque or bedding rather than velocity differences.

 

But only the "L" ammo vertically strings. The "E" ammo flyers are random. The bedding comes with the Rotex stock and the action screws are torqued to 65 inch pounds as recommended by the smith.

 

if all it took was buying a premium rifle/rig and buying top of the line ammo there would not be much point to the sport now would it. Everyone would just pull out the credit card and shoot 2500 25X's every time

 

I wholeheartedly agree. The fact is I don’t shoot in competition but really enjoy just tuning a rifle to get the most out of it. Something as simple as a misaligned magazine well can totally ruin the accuracy of your rifle. I recently found that to be the case in a Savage Mkii I’m working on. The bullets were chambering high and getting shaved by the top of the chamber. A little shim work resolved the problem and tightened up my groups by a huge margin. The action screw torque and proper action to stock bedding makes a lot of difference too. There are so many factors and normally an out of the box rifle lacks the hand finishing to get it on the top level of its performance. That’s the part I enjoy the most. Finding discrepancies and correcting them. A higher quality product doesn’t always mean all the bugs are worked out either. Attention to detail in all areas are needed. The rifle, the rest, the scope, shooting technique,ammo selection, wind calling, ect…..

 

Welcome to the world of production ammo. I just came home from range testing some newly received Eley Match. First test was 1025 production 1063 speed that shot some ragged one hole groups. Second test was same year 1071 speed and all targets looked like I was shooting the numbers on an analog clock. Wind this AM <5mph.
Frustrating.

 

I'm glad you made this post.

Eley Match is the most "fancy" ammo I own.

First time I tried it out of my 10/22, it felt like a cheat code. 10 rounds in a "smallish" ragged hole. Felt like a cheat code.

Last weekend, it was flyer after flyer. Get 4-5 rounds in, nice group, and ZING there goes something 1" high and to the right. Next couple rounds are OK, then ZING, another flyer or 2.

Wondering if the diff is a different ammo lot... or the fact that I started shooting with a bipod instead of rest. Will have to do some experimenting.

 

I've had a similar thing happening with Lapua. The other night, on a factory target, I shot 16 100s in a row with 4 Xs before dropping 2 25s, a 10 and a 50 in the next 4 shots...all low. Then I went back to 100s.

Before the match, I spent an hour with the ammo, shooting through the chronograph. I ended up with 50 shots with an SD of 5 and 50 shots with an SD of 7.

So, with the ammo being very consistent and the gun shooting that well, I have no idea what happened on those 4 shots.

 

You are probably not alone in your frustration. There seems to be a lot of discussions here about those 'flyers' and a lot of blame pointed at the ammunition. IMHO much of that blame is misplaced, when the biggest variable in Benchrest shooting is always the marksman. Yes, there is variability of even the best (or most expensive) ammunition. But looking at the variability between batches and in any specific batch of match ammo, it seldom explains the flyers shooters complain about.
After spending the time and money to go to one of the test ranges, you walk away with charting of the variability of your control batch and the tested batches. In my simple mind, anything outside of that 'circle of variability' is likely caused by the shooter, not the ammunition. While shooting an ARA Factory Class rifle, I find my variability outside those test range circles. The more I chase the Correction, the worse it gets. Something else had to be going on.
Strange as it may sound, I found my expected variability was slightly improved on a relatively accurate 10/22. While obviously not as accurate as my ARA Factory piece, I saw fewer unexplained flyers with a semi-automatic than with a bold action using a single shot adapter. My front rest and rear bag remain constant in all the shooting. One helpful forum member noted that with the semi-automatic, I never take my eye away from the scope and lose focus, something that does happen with the bolt action/SSA. While all my scopes correct for parallax, subtle changes in eye, hand and body placement can easily occur. While I am having difficulty catching myself in these differences, it does not mean they do no exist.
There might be some external, mechanical component to some perceived flyers, but the human factor is more likely responsible for those unexplained flyers, beyond a test center documented circle of accuracy.

 

You are probably not alone in your frustration. There seems to be a lot of discussions here about those 'flyers' and a lot of blame pointed at the ammunition. IMHO much of that blame is misplaced, when the biggest variable in Benchrest shooting is always the marksman. Yes, there is variability of even the best (or most expensive) ammunition. But looking at the variability between batches and in any specific batch of match ammo, it seldom explains the flyers shooters complain about.
After spending the time and money to go to one of the test ranges, you walk away with charting of the variability of your control batch and the tested batches. In my simple mind, anything outside of that 'circle of variability' is likely caused by the shooter, not the ammunition. While shooting an ARA Factory Class rifle, I find my variability outside those test range circles. The more I chase the Correction, the worse it gets. Something else had to be going on.
Strange as it may sound, I found my expected variability was slightly improved on a relatively accurate 10/22. While obviously not as accurate as my ARA Factory piece, I saw fewer unexplained flyers with a semi-automatic than with a bold action using a single shot adapter. My front rest and rear bag remain constant in all the shooting. One helpful forum member noted that with the semi-automatic, I never take my eye away from the scope and lose focus, something that does happen with the bolt action/SSA. While all my scopes correct for parallax, subtle changes in eye, hand and body placement can easily occur. While I am having difficulty catching myself in these differences, it does not mean they do no exist.
There might be some external, mechanical component to some perceived flyers, but the human factor is more likely responsible for those unexplained flyers, beyond a test center documented circle of accuracy.

With the one piece rest, I touch only the trigger while watching the flags.

 

2 cards from yesterdays ammo test, which had zero wind the entire time. These were shot free recoil same box of Lapua CX. Only difference was the pressure the front bags ears was putting on the stock. This game has a heck of a learning curve

 

2 cards from yesterdays ammo test, which had zero wind the entire time. These were shot free recoil same box of Lapua CX. Only difference was the much pressure the front bags ears was putting on the stock. This game has a heck of a learning curve
View attachment 597642 View attachment 597644

Just curious. I have seen that charting software before but, I have no clue what it is. Could you identify it please?

 

OnTarget TDS 35 bucks and worth every penny in my opinion

OnTarget Shooting - Measuring Firearm Precision and Accuracy

OnTarget programs measure firearm precision and accuracy, helping thousands of shooters worldwide improve their shooting performance.

ontargetshooting.com

 

I'm just curious as to what scanner you're using. I never could get that program to work correctly despite several tech conversations with the developer. They kept telling me it "SHOULD " work perfectly with my Canon setup. But they were always wrong. Went back to my original MK 1 V 1.0 scoring system aided by a Vivosun 10X magnifier. That works perfectly.

 

Seems like the point of Premium / Match ammo, is the lack of flyers, like you generally see with cheap ammo like Remington Thunderbolts and Blazer. At least this seems to hold true with my old stash of RWS, and Eley!

 

This reminds me of 20 or so years ago. I was shooting at 50yds and shooting beside me on the next bench was a feller that had it all, literally. Outclassed me equipment wise in every dept, had dodads I’d never heard of let alone seen at the time. He outscored me by less than 10 points by the end of that string. (He did finish 30+ higher than me overall) . When we walked down and looked at our targets and then each others he just smiled and said, “Hell, I don’t know. On to next round.” Perspective I still live by.

 

For some reason I bought the Garmin right after it came out. It was interesting in the beginning . Resdon I use it now all the time is to watch velocities of each shot When I see a very high velocity to the others I can now say, before looking at the target, why expect to see the bullet hit a 50 or even a 25. Same for slow velocities, all low and not good. At least I then I know it wasn't me missing a wind read.

I only shoot L, Midas or Xact. One time I was shooting and the general range was 1040 to 1055. Took my shot and it sounded odd. Chrono showed 990. That 10 wasn't me at least. If nothing else the chrono explains some of those misses. And I usually will see in the order of 2 per card. But everyone else is in the same boat judging by the groans during a match. It is what it is with ammo.

 

For some reason I bought the Garmin right after it came out. It was interesting in the beginning . Resdon I use it now all the time is to watch velocities of each shot When I see a very high velocity to the others I can now say, before looking at the target, why expect to see the bullet hit a 50 or even a 25. Same for slow velocities, all low and not good. At least I then I know it wasn't me missing a wind read.

I only shoot L, Midas or Xact. One time I was shooting and the general range was 1040 to 1055. Took my shot and it sounded odd. Chrono showed 990. That 10 wasn't me at least. If nothing else the chrono explains some of those misses. And I usually will see in the order of 2 per card. But everyone else is in the same boat judging by the groans during a match. It is what it is with ammo.

Yes, unfortunately you are correct. And with X-Act costing $15 per box more than Tenex, I am abandoning Lapua.

 

.

 

There are a lot of things that can affect the POI. These two targets came from the same case of $6.99 a box SK Semi auto. The rifle is exactly the same and the conditions were both shot in very low wind. Since shooting the top target on December 30 I have 5 months more experiance, the temperature is 30 degrees warmer, tuner setting has came in 12 units and my front and rear rest setup is completely different. In December it shot outstanding for that price range ammo but it fell flat yesterday.

Here is what I think happened. I had adjusted the tuner for the Lapua CX yesterday and while I rarely use my Garmin anymore in rimfire I do know the POI for the SKSA is about 1/2 inch higher and 50 - 75 fps faster than CX and I needed to lower my vertical appropriately. I ended up circling the bull with "flyers". To me that is a sure sign the tuner is off. Anytime that I end up with a circle of 50 ring "edgers" when the wind is low I start suspecting the tune. Since that ammo is faster than the CX I suspect I should have brought the tuner in a click or two

this is just guesswork, so take it with a grain of salt. There is still more experimenting to do before I would call this a certainty

 

There are lousy lots of top tier ammo. The first lot of X-Act I tried a few years ago could produce good results with part of a box and then give inexplicable results. When I chronographed several boxes with different rifles, I found spreads in excess of 70 fps in some boxes with SDs in the high teens.

Since then I've had the misfortune of having a second lot of X-Act that was a poor performer on target (and over the chrony). These characteristics don't bode well for consistent accuracy. No rifle can make ammo like that shoot. I doubt I'll buy any other lot of X-Act shipped to my small market country.

 

I’m beginning to think a chronograph is useless for 50yards unless youre shooting without a tuner. I don’t own one, full disclosure. This is from my last two tuning attempts. Both times it was a little windy and I had limited time. So when I found something I tested it by shooting 22 speed and 32 speed at the same aim point and they shot at the same vertical level.

 

My BR rifle is a 40X, Benchmark barrel chambered for Eley TENEX ammo, barrel tuner, McMillan flat top chassis, bedded, Jewel 2 ounce trigger, on a 250AR rest. The set up is fully capable of 2500 25X. I've found that any flyers are a result of my own failures, trigger control and reading the wind. After 50+ years of shooting I still find myself going back to basic marksmanship training to correct my own faults.

 

My BR rifle is a 40X, Benchmark barrel chambered for Eley TENEX ammo, barrel tuner, McMillan flat top chassis, bedded, Jewel 2 ounce trigger, on a 250AR rest. The set up is fully capable of 2500 25X. I've found that any flyers are a result of my own failures, trigger control and reading the wind. After 50+ years of shooting I still find myself going back to basic marksmanship training to correct my own faults.

Where do you shoot sanctioned matches and how close have you come to shooting 2500 25X?

 

I’m not an expert by any means but I have found some things that made my Tikka T1X shoot incredibly well. I believe the biggest improvement for me was smoothing out my ignition system. There is a video posted by a forum member here that walks through the process of making the firing pin system more consistent. I had a lot of Lapua center-x and a lot of SK standard plus that wouldn’t group good for anything. After performing the smoothing process of the inside of my bolt and all the related components my rifle shoots amazingly well. Fliers that were a common occurrence are very few and far between now. I have done other things to my rifle that improved its performance also but this was the biggest improvement. The inside of my bolt had all kinds of high spots that were making my ignition sluggish and inconsistent. I’ll post a video here that shows how consistent my rifle is now going from one ammo to the next without refouling the barrel. Also I only keep my chamber clean of a carbon buildup and have let the barrel fully season from the breech all the way to the muzzle. I’ll post the article that covers that also. I have recently modified a Savage Mkii and used the same protocols with it and it is almost as accurate as the Tikka now. You can watch my videos and decide for yourself. I know most of this is going to be very controversial, but I believe the proof is there. I hope this helps you my friend. Also, you may want to remove the tuners and start the process over to see what works and what doesn’t. Weight at the end of the barrel is always beneficial in eliminating unwanted vibration and harmonics. You will see I use shaft collars to perform this at a very low cost.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/a-guide-to-22lr-barrel-care-for-the-precision-rimfire-shooter/

 

Awsome shooting

 

That’s some great shooting. 👍🏻

 

I make no claims to great shooting. Every bull on every target in every match is a single stand alone event.

 

Last week at the Triple Crown in Bristol VA I would guess 15 to 20 cases or more of Lapua CX...Midas....Xact was bought and sold. Don't tell me it isn't available and you can't find it.

 

Seems like it’s all going to the competition market. Makes sense for Lapua. Good marketing strategy. What about the average person like me?

 

Ammo users rarely, if ever, sell off lots that shoot well. It's easy to understand how ammo being sold was acquired if it was bought blind, without testing.

On the other hand, if it was tested before purchase, it must have shown good results. Sometimes the entire lot may not be equally or sufficiently uniform to continue to produce those good results. Few if any lots are perfectly uniform.

 

Ammo users rarely, if ever, sell off lots that shoot well. It's easy to understand how ammo being sold was acquired if it was bought blind, without testing.

On the other hand, if it was tested before purchase, it must have shown good results. Sometimes the entire lot may not be equally or sufficiently uniform to continue to produce those good results. Few if any lots are perfectly uniform.

Testing before purchase for most shooters is virtually impossible in today's world. You have to buy what you can when you can.

 

Welcome to the world of production ammo. I just came home from range testing some newly received Eley Match. First test was 1025 production 1063 speed that shot some ragged one hole groups. Second test was same year 1071 speed and all targets looked like I was shooting the numbers on an analog clock. Wind this AM <5mph.
Frustrating.

I believe I wrote that program a long time ago, and it has stuck to me

Welcome to the world of production ammo. I just came home from range testing some newly received Eley Match. First test was 1025 production 1063 speed that shot some ragged one hole groups. Second test was same year 1071 speed and all targets looked like I was shooting the numbers on an analog clock. Wind this AM <5mph.
Frustrating.

i believe I wrote that program years ago, and it has suck to me like glue! At least I am predictable. 🤣