The Club

LEADERBOARD

Member----------- AVG 3-----------AVG 4----------Rifle

Les1911-----------.421--------------.560----------Kidd/TerminatorTARGET

DrGunner----------.477-------------.513-----------Eliminator/Lilja/Kidd TARGET

Griffen--------------.479------------.627-----------Kidd/Titan TARGET

DrGunner-----------.524-------------.562----------Tomahawk/Kidd SG TARGET

Les1911-------------.525-------------.542----------GM25 TARGET

Les1911------------.572-------------.655-----------Kidd HD TARGET

Bill40718-----------.574-------------.642----------Somethin Else TARGET

Les1911------------.583-------------.775----------Fred Ruger TARGET

DrGunner----------.596-------------.698---------Raptor/Kidd 18" LWTARGET

DrGunner----------.635-------------.663---------Vantage/18" Kidd LWTARGET

Ron1738-----------.649-------------.753-----------Kidd/Feddersen

Griffen--------------.672------------.793-----------GM 10-22

Chromie------------.678-------------.753----------Blue Kidd BR

DrGunner----------.679-------------.744-----------GM Carbine "Scorn"

brand new1022----.706-------------.804-----------Ruger/Kidd 20"

Smoothtrigger-----.739-------------.854-----------Kidd Supergrade

y2krc46------------.744-------------.789-----------Kidd/Titan

rokehe-------------.754--------------.781-----------Bionic LVT

rokehe-------------.781--------------.877----------Groovie 3.0

Bill40718-----------.784-------------.886----------Somethin' Else

painless2-----------.799-------------.919----------MR/Kidd/Raptor

Dr Heckel----------.832-------------1.00-----------Kidd Classic/T36/Eliminator

lilski----------------.836------------.915------------lilski BR

CBF Gettysburg----.862------------.922-----------Vantage/Kidd

Smoothtrigger------.885------------.979-----------Kidd Supergrade

Vincent-------------.944-------------.987-----------African Rose

Colt4530-----------.946-------------1.064----------GM 10-22

.

 

Ammo Comparison

Here's a Link to a great article comparing 55 different types of ammo for accuracy:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/22-lr/

DrGunner

 

Fail... Not epic

I tried to shoot the "MOA Holy Grail" again today- this was my 5th or 6th outing and I have been consistently improving my groups at 100 for the last 4 months. When I started, my groups were 2.5".

I failed, but I learned a lot in the process and came very close. I shot very well with Eley black match pistol and Eley Team. I did not shoot any Lapua today. Whats frustrating is that I had MANY groups .7 - .9 inches and even a couple around a half inch. I just wasn't able to get three groups out of four under an inch on one piece of paper. The closest I came were targets with averages of 1.112, 1.114, and 1.117. There was a light crossing headwind, but it was inconsistent and would go from dead calm to 5-10 repeatedly. By the time I saw my flags pick up, the bullet was on its way and the group was already ruined. I would adjust my shot for the wind, only to have it go flat 3 shots later, with my shot hitting my POA- away from the herd because the drift was gone.

The rifle is doing fine... This is all me. I did end up placing an extra set of flags 10 yards behind my targets, but by then I was spent and the wind was picking up.

I know I can do this... I shot at least a dozen groups under an inch today. It's down to technique and reading the wind. I have seen a vast improvement in my shooting from the bench with free recoil, but its new to me and its hard to unlearn 35+ years of habits. I'm going to keep practicing until I can post 4 groups at or under .750" on one target.

My rest is a basic Caldwell Rock. I would like to buy a nicer rest, but only want to do it once...

Anyone with suggestions for a better front rest or technique, please enlighten me, I'm all ears.

Regards,

DrGunner

 

Hang in there Doc!

If you keep plugging away, I'm sure you will accomplish your goal. You've already cut your group size in 1/2, and sooner or later you'll get a calm day, or at least a tailwind. Your resilience would make the Black Knight proud!
James

 

Except for the too light aluminum Lightweight Base, I like my Sinclair Generation II All-Purpose Windage Top and it’s at least a step up from anything Caldwell. The next batch of their heavy cast iron base is still in production, on backorder, and not expected until the first of 2013.

Already here is their non-windage Benchrest Top along with Small and Regular Owl Ear bags waiting on me to get done with a hopefully more stable shooting bench. You adjust how the BR Top pinches nearer the tips of the ears of the Owl Ear bags which may “grip” better than the mechanism of the All-Purpose Top. When done with the bench I’ll be testing the BR Top and shooting my “before” groups so I can move on with another project that’s been dragging.

If you wanna spend $660 you can have the Sinclair Competition Rest which is worthy of lust but that’s as far as it’ll ever get with me.

 

Rests---Two Piece rests, Bipods, Bags. No one piece or return to battery rests.

Just out of curiousity, why the prejudice against one-piece rests. I've never understood how a solid one-piece rest would apparently be considered an advantage. The gun is supported from the same two places as a two-piece setup, it's just easier to carry around. There are a whole lot of plain Jane one-piece rests out there that are not even close to as good or exotic as the two-piece setups I see around me. Many don't even have horizontal adjustment capability.

 

I have a one piece rest, and this challenge would be considerably easier if I were to use it.
In fact, I use it to test and tune my rifles when I want to remove the "human factor". All 3 10-22 builds that I own can produce MOA or sub-MOA groups at 100 consistently from the one piece rest on my test bench. I personally don't see that as a test of my shooting skill.
I agree that a two piece rest or, as I use, front rest and rear bag does support the rifle at the same points. However, a one piece rest mechanically locks/connects those contact points together, significantly reducing the skill required by the shooter in the equation.
My main purpose in developing this game is to provide a serious challenge that will also help myself and other members to learn and improve our shooting. Shooting a rifle that is locked in a lead sled or one piece machine rest with windage and elevation knobs does not provide the requisite challenge I was trying to create.
Many folks claim they can shoot MOA to 100 off of a rest with their rifles, "if I do my part." Consider this restriction the "my part" factor.
This is their chance to prove it.

Respectfully,

DrGunner

 

You are 100% correct Doc, I see it the same way.

I use the Cowan rest made by the students in Pa., where the proceeds go to them
and their program. It is a good rest, and with a Protector Dr. rear, it makes a good platform to shoot from.

 

Well, G... You got me there. Then again I personally don't have $700 to spend on a Fulgham or Fudd rest that does everything for me.
Look up the "Bench Beast" by Hyskor if you want to see how things are going with
one piece rests. If I allow any one piece rest, I have to allow all the " trees" in the forest.

I use the basic Calwell Rock, with no windage control...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/412484/caldwell-rock-front-shooting-rest

DrG

 

The windage feature is fun to play with but probably wasted money without the stock and everything else about the setup capable of making it actually useful.

 

Hey George- long time no speaky. The windage adjustments have improved on many models, IF you get a front bag that fits your stock properly.

Gordon- here are a couple more trees from the forest I was considering when making the rules for this game...

The Target Shooting.com 1000LP:

http://www.targetshooting.com/catalog/model-1000LP-rifle-rest/

The Bench Beast, by Hyskor:

http://hyskore.com/wp/2012/02/01/the-30195-bench-beast™-joystick-competition-rest/

There are one or two others of similar design and function. You see, my friend- I do not have a prejudice against ALL one piece rests. Letting rests like yours (which I agree does NOT provide any significant advantage over a high end front rest) would necessarily open the door to these others. That would NOT be fair to the folks shooting off of two piece setups. Besides, that is your Kidd Supergrade sitting in that rest, is it not? You should be able to shoot this challenge with it backwards, using mirrors and your big toe on the trigger.

DrGunner

 

Could someone please explain how to do the measurements. I have been putting together a 10/22 and am ready to start seeing how good I am / the gun is. Are you measuring each bullet in the 5 shot group or is it only the furthest one from center? Also when measuring a shot is it the center of the hole to the center of the target? Thanks

 

Measuring a 5 shot group size has nothing to do with its relation to center/POA. It is the center to center distance of the two shot shots most distant from each other. Measure the outside edge of the widest part of the group and subtract the size of one bullet hole. That will give you the longest center to center distance of the five shots..

 

Question for DrGunner, can we use on target software to measure the groups? It is much easier and seems to be more accurate than using a caliper.
Elmo

 

I don't see why not, as long as you post a full size picture of the target as well.

DrGunner

 

Just my 2 cents. A one piece rest is nothing less than an artillery carriage, and removes all but one human element from the equation. It's then merely an equipment competition with the only variable the ability (or luck) to read the wind.

No other skills are involved.

JMO

 

VERY well put...

Thanks for weighing in, Paul.

DrGunner

 

Hey Doc, have you measured for the ’83 yet? That’s the one with divots bout ½” back from the muzzle ain’t it?

 

Hey Doc, have you measured for the '83 yet? That's the one with divots bout ½" back from the muzzle ain't it?

No, I haven't measured any of my targets from today yet, not sure if I'll get to it tonight - I have work early in the morning. And yes, it is the one with the dimpled barrel, I put the brake back on it and renamed it "Scorn".
Check your email, I replied to yours with a link...

DrGunner

 

Thanks again, Doc. I’ll be sure to note my calendar too.

 

I'll have an entry . Shot today with African Rose (only tape bedded at this point). Individual Groups of .965", 1.011", 1.115", .855". Average group size of .987". Shot 4 targets today at the end of the day two would qualify but one "measurement" shot drifted into the area of the group looking like a flier and rather than cause tongues to wag just decided not to use it. Both of the other targets were 2 under MOA and two over MOA. I am sure rifle will do better but what the heck, target in hand.......

Conditions were switchy breeze changed from 360 degs, 88 deg, some Mirage

Rifle is SuperStock "African Rose"
Barrel GM 19" Heavy Taper
Scope is Mueller APV 4.5-14X
Kidd Single Stage trigger 1.5lbs
Cowan Front Rest/rabbit ear bag in back

Rifle:

 

VERY NICE WORK, Vincent.

I know because I have been shooting at 100 a lot lately. I had absolute perfect conditions today, 2-5 MPH tailwind, 68 degrees, no mirage...

DrGunner

 

Perfect day

It finally all came together. I had absolutely the best conditions and a great day on the bench. This was my best of 6 targets with the Kidd/Lilja build. Two others qualified, .742 and .898

Rifle:
Revolution Eliminator stock in "Coffee", Pillar and Devcon bedded
Bisley adjustable butt plate
Kidd Classic black rcvr w/rear tang
Lilja 21" Stainless Match barrel
Kidd silver scalloped bolt, CH, pins & buffer
Kidd 2 stage trigger w/straight red trigger, 3oz/3oz
Scope: Mueller 8-32x44 Side Focus target scope on Leupold QRW rings, low
Rest:Caldwell Rock + Cabelas rear bag

DrGunner

EDIT: I just noticed the upper left target has SIX shots in the group.... What a Maroon... I think I've been shooting too much this year, if that's possible.

G

 

I also shot 6 targets with my '83 GM carbine... Kinda funny that I call it that, the only Ruger left on it is the receiver and stock. It wears a 20"GM fluted taper, Kidd Bolt, CH, TG, rcvr pins and buffer.

And yes, Vincent, I put the fugly brake back on it...

Rifle:
OEM Ruger Walnut Stock pillar + Devcon
1983 Ruger receiver.
Kidd Scalloped silver bolt, CH, pins & buffer
Kidd single stage, .98lb
GM 20" Fluted taper barrel Tactical Inc M22/50 compensator
Scope: Mueller 8.5-25x44AO Tactical scope on Burris QD rings, low
Rest: Caldwell Rock + Cabelas rear bag

DrGunner

 

Brake is cool in Ultimate. Besides I know you got a tender shoulder from holding those feet all day

Funny we posted just minutes apart to start off your new game. Good company I'd say:bthumb:

Now I may have to dig out my other three rifles and start blasting.

Speaking of blasting:AR15firin Conditions were changing so fast today I used a technique Bench Resters used to call machine gunning where I shot several of these groups as fast as I could get back on target and tickle that Kidd trigger. If someone was listening they would have thought I was plinking not shooting at 100 yards. Just another tool in the box you know?

 

Conditions were changing so fast today I used a technique Bench Resters used to call machine gunning where I shot several of these groups as fast as I could get back on target and tickle that Kidd trigger. If someone was listening they would have thought I was plinking not shooting at 100 yards.

Looks like I'm not the only Maroon... Look at your upper right group....

Six shots???

DrGunner

 

oooooops. Fixed it

 

I'm pretty sure if you did it with a bone stock Charger on the bipod someone would pipe in that unless it's offhand no skill is involved.
But hey the way you're trying to make it more challenging you may get there yet.
All kidding aside I'm truly impressed. Keep at it. :bthumb:

 

Make your own game!

If you don't like the rules of this game, make your own. Nobody is twisting your arm to play. I have one of those cheapo $28 Winchester one piece rests from Walmart that I'm sure is less stable than 3- 1 gallon ziplock bags filled with green jello, and I wouldn't ask for the rules to be changed to use IT! When you want to play a game, you read the rules, if you don't like the rules, it means you don't like the game .... move on to the next one.

BTW, Thanks DrG. for running some fine games.:bthumb:
James

 

It really comes down to this, it is a game. Every game has rules. Lines must be drawn at some point.

If you do not like the rules don't play. Nobody is forcing you to try this.

Anyone can start a game any time. If you want a game that allows 200 lb return to battery mounts than start the game and then you can get bombarded with a bunch of silly arguments.

I have and currently do run a number of games and sometimes it gets to the point that it makes you wonder why you bother doing it. DrGunner is doing this with his time and his trouble so you can have fun.

A few years ago this Forum tried running 1/4" at 25 yard game and it died partly because of a bunch of silly in fighting.

 

I made the 50 yard half inch benchmark this afternoon and came oh so close on the inch at 100 with a 3 group average on 0.870" and a 4 group average of 0.989" but only 2 groups under 1.047" Rifle is an SR-22 with all KIDD internals, shot prone with a Harris bipod and rear bag. This was the best of 5 targets with an overall average of 1.306" using several varieties of SK and Lapua ammo.

Jeff

 

Your 3- and 4- group averages are awesome and make me want to bend the rules...

Very nice work. FWIW, it took me 9 months of practice before I was able to shoot this challenge. The act of finally achieving this one was more about the journey than the destination;

I learned more about myself and reading the wind than with any other shooting exercise. I shot the Tack driver 100 first, which seemed easier than shooting groups- somehow each shot feels like more of an individual event...which is actually the key, IMO, to each of these games
Using several targets and shooting extra sighters between my groups helped a LOT.

For me, this game was more about ME working until I was ABLE to shoot sub-MOA at 100. I have three rifles that have been capable of it since the first shot was fired...

I doubt very seriously that I could do it off of a bipod, but I bet you can.
Im more comfortable on the bench, my neck doesnt like the prone shooting position because of an old injury. I use a Caldwell front rest and rear bag. I just upgraded my Archangel build to a Kidd 18" Lt barrel.

My brother and I shot all afternoon yesterday, first breaking it in for a couple hundred rounds, then I shot the 25 and 50 with it. We spent three hours breaking clay pigeons affixed to a black target board at 125 and 234 yards, according to my cheapo Bushnell rangefinder. My brother and I hadn't shot together in years and we had a blast!

After shooting the Kidd LT, I was thoroughly impressed. Definitely a better shooter than my GM and WP, but time will tell if I can get it to run with my Lilja.
You might want to consider the Caldwell Rock, it's only $65.
Then again, you could keep impressing us with your bipod skills and likely be the only guy on the leader board to have claim to that title!

BTW- On future targets, you need to shoot your four sizers separately, in the area provided in the center of the target... I just shoot those four first, using them as sighters, and getting them out of the way. Nothing is more frustrating than shooting a set of qualifying groups and having a sizing shot wander into the herd on one of your groups, effectively ruining a good target.

Keep shooting!!!

DrGunner

 

I barely squeezed in with this one. I wasn't going to submit a target until it was at least in the .8" average but figured I might as well get my name on the board.

Ammunition-Eley OSP

Groups-
.931
.606
1.502
.961
3 group average-.832"
4 group average-1.00"

 

Hey Doc-
Welcome to the Holy Grail club!!!
jgraves just made the 50, shooting with Lapua Pistol OSP. I noticed you shot with Eley OSP. I've never seen you shoot that ammo before.

How does it stack up?

I tried the Black Match pistol by Eley, on the recommendation of the guys at CSS. It did not shoot any better for me than the lower priced blue box Eley Team. I will probably try this one with the Archangel/Kidd LtWt in the coming weeks, after I've had more trigger time to learn the new setup. I will likely shoot all of the Tack Driver challenges with it first.

Congratulations!!!

DrGunner

PS- I DID notice that .606.... Very nice shooting!!!

 

MOA from this rifle has been a year long journey for me and very frustrating because I know I am capable of much better than MOA accuracy. I also know I have much to learn about shooting in the wind. My next step is to start using flags as there are practically no indicators near the floor of the range (short grass) and what occurs on top of the berms or tree tops doesn't reflect whats happening between the berms.

I'm quite comfortable shooting prone for several hours at a time but I shot a lot of prone and 3 position during my high school years (20 years ago). I've considered a proper front rest but the only time I would use it would be testing ammo and maybe sighting in.

I've been impressed with all the KIDD components I've put in the SR-22 although there are many manufacturers of top quality barrels.

The target is missing sizers because it was the last 20 rounds of Center-X I had. I left the range with about 120 rounds of mixed ammo that may be MOA capable but after 25 groups at 100, had decided there was too much inconsistent wind to waste it.

 

So you've been shooting at 100 without wind flags???
Then you are doing a lot better than you think... I shoot at 100 often and have 3 sets of flags on both sides of my range, which has no side berms. Even though they are just 3" wide strips of plastic hanging on sticks, I would feel blind without them. The vast majority of my 5 shot groups from 100 are in the .80-1" range, some days I can consistently shoot .7xx. My submitted targets are certainly cherry picked from dozens of targets over many range sessions and NOT indicative of what I and my rifle can do on a consistent everyday basis. What's frustrating is what happened to you, shooting two nice groups and having the third open up.
I have had MANY targets with a .5XX or .6XX to start, only to fall apart on a later group- which was likely me psyching myself out!

At 100, I tend to shoot one or two groups, then go to a sighting target with a fresh mag and dial in, then shoot the third, etc. I think wind flags will help you considerably, not just in reading and compensating for the wind, but in knowing when NOT to shoot...
Especially because the wind 100 yards from your position can often be vastly different from what you feel.

Again, nice work!!!

DrGunner