Has the case guiding sliding sleeve of the RCBS .22 Hornet Competition Seater die been reamed to allow full entry of the very much modified case dimensions of the .22 K-Hornet?

 

That is an excellent question. It is a K-Hornet specific die, but I don't even understand your question completely, so I cannot intelligently respond. If you can explain it in more detail, I'm all ears.

 

I have the RCBS Competition Seater for .204 Ruger. This round’s 30° case shoulders register on and are automatically centered by the complementing angles of the shoulders cut into the bottom side of the die’s sliding sleeve which is close slip fit within the die body, same as is the extended shellholder positioning the opposite end of the case. The bullet gets dropped through the “loading window” into the top of the sliding sleeve where it’s also a close fit so that as the press ram is raised, both ends of the case and the bullet are held centered within the die in close alignment when the seater stem finally contacts the ogive and begins shoving the bullet home ‘til seated concentric within the case neck, that is provided all was and went well.

 

bullet guides

About the RCBS competition seating die: Unless you got some special order version for the K variation, the regular 22 Hornet version may not, as OleFreak has pointed out, be helping your case reference the case shoulder to the guide to center within the bullet guide as intended. However, I was always under the impression that the bullet guides were all the same for 22 caliber. That is, a 22-250 would have the same guide as a 222 or 22 Hornet. Are they all different from one another? This would be a good question for RCBS. I suspect that if you get the "Gold Medal" version, if available, you would get a customized bullet guide for a specific cartridge.

 

I am familiar with the competition seating dies; however, unlikely as it may sound, I get consistent concentric/consistent bullet seating with my standard .22 Hornet by seating all bullets with the Lee wackamole die set. I simple chamfer the inside of the case mouth on first prep and have no trouble with seating flat based bullets or, easier yet, boattails. Once placed on the black depriming base and with the neck sizer die over the case, the bullet has to go in dead center using the bullet seating rod. Not fast but effective.

 

Thanks for the education on the competition dies, sounds great. Posting on another site I found out that the Wilson 'whack-a-mole', bullet seating die is a commercial version of what I made. I'm guessing that the Lee version that alum572 uses is also very similar. My die set is for the K chambering; only problem is that there are several interpretations of the round. Two of my rifles can share cases, the third has the shoulder .025 closer to the case mouth.

I modified my unit slightly by inserting a thin sleeve of copper in the bullet drop tube area, thereby reducing the clearance and the chance for wobble even further. The bullet no longer drops free but must be gently pushed down to the case mouth. It now fits so well that it forms an air tight seal but still slides down with minimal effort.

I'm really liking the K hornets. With this new addition my groups are definitely tightening up.

 

Have you tried small pistol primers in your K Hornet loads? I recently switched and 50yds targets show impressive results with 4227 and Sierra 1385 in my standard L-46 Hornet. Haven't chronied any yet nor shot anything further than 50 yet.

 

I tried small pistol primers from Federal and CCI. But since I didn't have a stable load to test them in it wasn't very informative. Now I have at least one 'good' load for each rifle and can start to experiment with other factors like primers and seating depth. So far I've been relying on Rem 6 1/2 primers.

 

Buddy had similar problem with non-K Hornet reloading. He sold the gun and bought a pair of 22 TCM guns - a 1911 and a bolt gun. Much easier cartridge to reload... he's happy.

 

Good analogy Vincent; our little engines aren't measured in HP but in FtLb, just like torque values, which is a measure of usable work force. Along the same lines many people want to make their rounds as hot as the equipment will tolerate. I'm more into accuracy and to date none of my K's will shoot well with anything more than 12gr of LilGun and all of them prefer loads in the 9 to 10.5 range.

Thanks for extending my limited understanding; what I believe you are saying is that in order to burn all of the powder in a shorter handgun barrel they need a more explosive primer. I'm guessing that the Hornets and Bees are some of the smallest rifle rounds in terms of powder capacity and yet they tend to have longish barrels, so no need for hotter primer brisiance ( thanks for teaching me a new more precise term ).

It all seems to make more sense. Now if it were just easier to find 6 1/2s locally I'd be set.

 

Good analogy Vincent; our little engines aren't measured in HP but in FtLb, just like torque values, which is a measure of usable work force. Along the same lines many people want to make their rounds as hot as the equipment will tolerate. I'm more into accuracy and to date none of my K's will shoot well with anything more than 12gr of LilGun and all of them prefer loads in the 9 to 10.5 range.

Thanks for extending my limited understanding; what I believe you are saying is that in order to burn all of the powder in a shorter handgun barrel they need a more explosive primer. I'm guessing that the Hornets and Bees are some of the smallest rifle rounds in terms of powder capacity and yet they tend to have longish barrels, so no need for hotter primer brisiance ( thanks for teaching me a new more precise term ).

It all seems to make more sense. Now if it were just easier to find 6 1/2s locally I'd be set.

When you really start studying internal ballistics you learn the primer is DONE after the first inch or two of barrel travel so a hotter powder does not make it work better.

This is like back in the 70's people loading the 30-30 and .222 with fast powders thinking that because of barrel length the regular powders would not work. In extensive testing by Bob Milek, Steve Herrett and even yours truly this was just not true. The very same powders that did best in a 22" barrel usually did better in 10" barrels. The powder is done doing most of it's work in those short 10" barrels which were all we could get back then. In fact I stretched the frame on an early Contender shooting .30 Herrett loads that were TWO FULL GRAINS BELOW THE SIERRA MANUAL MAX with 110 gr bullets!! T/C was kind enough to replace it for free..

Later when the first pressure tested loads for the .30 Herrett came out 4227 was maxed out at something like 17.0 grains while the Sierra book had 25 grains as max Like may wild cats the .357 and .30 Herrett loads were WAY TO HOT.

Same is true of the Ackley loads. Only fools use the loads out of P.O. Ackley's books these days. Some of his loads were well up into thew 80,000 PSI levels by then!! The Herretts for the Contender were probably in the 70,000 psi range yet I shot several thousand of them before my early frame just gave up while I had a Mojave Desert jack rabbit in my sites and the pistol went "Click" instead of "BANG" and never fired another shot. I was heart broken. T/C cast another frame with the same serial number on it for me so I did not even have to hassle with paperwork!!

As for your K Hornet loads something is VERY screwy it seems to me. I load 13.0 Lil Gun and can load 13.5 in Rem cases and 12.5 or could load 13.0 in Winchester Hornet loads all these with the Horn 35 V max or the 40 Vmax or Nosler and these are regular Hornet loads in my CZ 527 and I have some cases I have loaded 12 times. I know you are loading a heavier bullet but you also are loading a K Hornet. I no longer have my K Hornet barrel or I would help you investigate but normally speaking Lil Gun will get the same velocity as other loads like H110/WW296 (same powder different cans) but it does it at 2/3 to 3/4 the pressure. That is what makes Lil Gun so magical.

Most people do not realize the only reason we have the 17HMR is LIL Gun!! Shooting Times Magazine did a loading series on loading 17 cal bullets on the 22 Mag case with out pressure testing them. Then they got one of Ken Oelher's ballistic lab in a box with piezoelectric strain gages and the famous Oelher Chrono and they found they were loading somewhere around 40,000 psi if I remember right (Max Average Pressure per SAAMI was 24,000 PSI) About five or six years later it seems (may have been more because it has been a while) Hornady came out with the 17HMR with a MAP of 27,000 psi (because there were no old guns banging around like the 22 Mag had they allowed the extra 3000 psi). Why could Hornady do this when Shooting Times could not?

Lil Gun had just been released and the powder made the difference!!

That is why the loads you quote seem so low. Remember some powders (and many or the new powders are not like the old IMR powders) shoot best right up at maximum load pressure. When I started loading it was a very rare thing that a powder gave it's best accuracy at the max loads. This was one of the reasons I changed my 22-250 and .243 loads to WW760 and never looked back. Back then all the gun writers were telling us best accuracy in those kinds of rounds were usually with the old DuPont IMR powders and they did not perform best at top pressures as well as being temp sensitive. Accuracy loads were often 2 or 3 gr below max.

With 13.5 of Lil Gun in a Rem case or 13.0 in my Win cases the case is FULL of powder! I backed off a .5 grain in each only because I got tired of spilling powder trying to put that tiny case in my Bonanza CoAx press and still seat a bullet! I am only shooting paper and the groups were the same but even if I were still out in the Mojave Desert I doubt a jack could tell the difference anyway!

 

Recently researched another possibility of Micrometer adjustable seating die for 22 K Hornet. Redding sells normal seating die for 22 K Hornet with NON micrometer adjustable stem http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...dies/rifle-dies/seater-dies-seater-die-22k-hornet-sku749005211-33293-63360.aspx , but for another $40 they are selling #25 micrometer like this one from Sinclair http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi.../measuring-tools/micrometers/standard-bullet-seating-micrometers-prod44706.aspx Just replace the NON adjustable stem for the Micrometer one it works like charm with no additional spacers or bushings. Centers the bullet just fine.

 

Forster sell an Ultra Micrometer Seater Die:

22 Hornet Ultra Micrometer Seater Die

 

Which brings up the same argument that has been going on since I was a kid and I just turned 64. Do you seat all the primers to the same depth or to the bottom of the primer recess. I think micrometer seating dies CAUSE the problem not solve it. Primer cups should be seated until the cup seats solidly into the hole. PERIOD.

If they are not in the bottom of the hole some of the firing pin force is used to seat the primer. If you seat the primer to the bottom of the hole in the case at least all the pin force is spent in the setting off the primer compound instead half of it used to seat the primer and the other half used to set the pellet alight.

Yes I know it may be 1/4, 3/4 or 1/3 and 2/3 but it is inconsistent. Now if you spent the the time with a tiny end mill making all the primer pockets identical the primer seating depth may mean something but until then.......forget it and use a cheap hand tool to seat the primer just like about ninety five percent of BR shooters do (the rest DID use a small end mill to make the holes the same and now the seating die makes sense but those are not usually "The Guys Winning" and they are grasping at straws to make perfect ammo instead of learning to read conditions which will do so much more for your scores than machined primer pockets will.