You won't do much better than the across the tops of the rings.
I always do my very best to get the scope level, but I do ask myself from time to time if it really makes much difference at normal ranges.
At the end of the day you can get the scope level, but can you hold the rifle level with no cant when shooting away from a bench ?

Neil.

 

I have put a lot of scopes on a lot of hunting rifles over the years. Let me throw you a suggestion.
Quit being concerned about "level".
Find you a horizontal surface you can see through the scope you are mounting, such as a fence line, brick line in a house, etc. Put scope in rings, leave loose to adjust eye relief and "level". CLOSE BOTH EYES AND MOUNT THE GUN LIKE YOUR ARE GOING TO SHOOT IT. Open eyes and find the horizontal surface in the scope. Repeat until the mounted gun as you hold it and the horizontal cross hair is correct. Then lock down and go shoot. I can assure you, this will make no difference in accuracy that anything else you do and will work better in the field and at the range. :bthumb:

 

That's pretty much what I do to all of mine including customer rifles. (I do have my own method that's always worked with excellent results). Been doing this a long time and I even give a first shot guarantee with a bore sight for my customers.

 

I just did it last night, put a new VX-I on my M70 .243. The way I level my scopes is by backing my eye off the scope a bit where I can see the crosshairs and the back of the receiver/bolt. I visualize the vertical crosshair going right down through the centerline of the bolt, if it doesn't, I rotate the scope so that it looks right. I've always had a skill for lining things up with my eyes (kinda helpful for a shooter...) and this has always worked well for me.

DPSTX

 

You might want to try this, if you're using Weaver-style rings. This method assumes the vertical turret is level with the reticle's crosshairs.

1. Mount the scope on the rifle, with proper eye relief, so that the rings are loose enough to turn the scope on its axis but not so loose it won't stay in place unless rotated deliberately. Don't worry about the levelness--just eyeball it.

2. Remove the scope & rings from the rifle. Lay them on a level surface such as a table or workbench. (After verifying that the surface is truly level.)

3. Rotate the scope till it's level, using spirit level placed on the elevation turret.

4. Tighten the rings, being careful not to lose their levelness, then replace them on the rifle. Doesn't matter now whether or not the rifle is level.

That should do it.

 

Thanks for the suggestions guys, it's a confusing thing for me to get my head around, especially as I like to get things as precise as possible and it seems everyone has their opinion and way.

I can appreciate the near enough is good enough, though I do strive to understand the specifics to get the most out of everything. It's a little pedantic though I feel if you cover the bases it allows for more potential in it's application and can avoid frustration and confusion.

The way I view it, if the rifle is set up as precise as possible, human influence will be the variable in shooting (of course ballistics etc another issue)

I do get mixed messages from the industry and communities, some say it's essential to get the rifle level and scope level, some say get the rifle generally level then be pedantic over the scope etc etc.

I guess being out of whack a little bit is not a huge deal, though as a novice I try to understand if there is specifically only one real right way (i.e. specific physics relative to a man made object), so as to not learn something only partly right as that influences learning and understanding in the future.
A good example of this for me was all the information noremf (george) has given about stocks lately, before reading his post, 99% of the information I was told and products I bought were wrong for the application, so there was a specifically right way to do it, but so much misunderstanding by most folks.

After that ramble i'll get my head around it a bit more and do some experimenting.

I do however find it a little odd that rifle manufactures don't have a known level spot relative to the bore on rifles. I guess mass manufacturing and tolerances might not allow for it.

Thanks everyone your suggestions are appreciated

 

Here is what I do, keeping in mind that I try to keep the vertical cross hair aligned with a reference line that meets the center line of the bore:

Find something that has a clear vertical line. This is your reference line. A plumb bob with a bright colored line is excellent for this, but the last time I mounted a scope I used the vertical line of the edge of a kitchen cabinet. Set up a table or other support about ten to fifteen feet from your vertical reference line and put a gun vise or sandbags on it.

Support the gun with the bolt out and level it by eye. Position it so the vertical line is visible through the bore and centered on the bore.

Check the scope against the vertical line. Is the vertical crosshair parallel to the vertical reference line? If not, rotate the scope in the rings until it is parallel. The vertical crosshair doesn't have to cover the reference line yet.

Measure the distance from the center of the bore to the center line of the scope. Using some sort of panel behind the plumb bob string (or on your vertical line if it is on a solid support) mark the centerline of the bore as seen through the bore and then another mark the same distance above it as you measured on the gun/scope.

Now center the crosshairs on the upper mark. You are now bore sighted enough to start your sight in.

If you have a gun that won't allow you to sight through the bore, use a laser bore sighting tool. I have used a small laser sitting in the action for this. If the laser isn't perfectly aligned, it won't throw a beam all the way through a small bore barrel, and any misalignment will be minimal. If you wiggle the laser in the action, you can get a feel for "center" and try to prop the laser in this position.

Unless you have an Adjustable Objective scope that focuses to very short distances, the image through the scope will be fuzzy and have a lot of parallax. This won't hurt the leveling/boresighting process if you keep the vertical cross hair even with the vertical reference line at the top and bottom.

By putting the vertical cross hair parallel to the reference line, any changes of the scope internal adjustments should be square to the bore.

 

I put my rifles in a rifle vise and I mount the scope loose where the eye relief is correct. I then look through the scope at a level object while checking the overall level of the rifle. I sometimes use the vertical center of the top and bottom of the rifle butt. I'll bet that most of mine are within a degree or two.

 

Thanks for the further opinions fellas, more food for thought.

I re-did the scope slowly but surely and will now give it a range test and see how it all goes. I used the ring base tops and the small edge available of the extractor claw as they seemed to give the same bubble level reading. (I canted it so the bubble sat on the edge of the reading line for consistancy)

Using Burris Signature Zees made it a little tricky, as things went a little out of level upon final tightening, but re-doing it a few times paying careful attention got me to where I needed.

Provincial, I was a little cramped for space and in poor light so didn't visually look through the bore for a vertical alignment, but I like what you described and will keep that all in mind for future tinkering.

M2HB, I wasn't overly fond of just eyeballing rifle level from things like buttstock, as I could see quite significant swings in bubble level from minor movements when adjusting the vice, but if that's what you do and have good field results then i'm possibly being a bit pedantic.

Cheers fellas and good shootin'.

 

You did it just as I usually do....across the bottom half of the rings. Alternating screws when tightening the ring screws like you do with lug nuts on a tire sometimes helps keep everything square.

 

Nothing wrong with trying to level it to the gun. The problem is, do you hold the gun level to the ground when you shoot it? Probably not! If you only shoot off a bench then there's less to worry about. What does matter is that when you make the shot, the scope has to be level to the earth, not the gun. Gravity doesn't know if you hold the receiver square to the earth or not. It pulls the bullet straight down whether you hold it square to the earth or not. So, my point is, mount the rifle where it feels comfy and then see if the crosshair is straight.

Magpul Dynamics has a great video on long distance rifle shooting where they go over all this more in depth. But the gist of it is that you need to fit your set up to you, not the other way around. Again, if you feel comfortable mounting the scope level to the receiver, then do that. Nothing wrong with that at all. But whatever way you plan to line it up, just remember you need to hold the crosshairs square to the earth.

Best of luck dude! And remember to take your time, clean your scope and rings before mounting, and most importantly, DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN any of the screws and such. Torque on those is measured in inch/lbs, not foot/lbs

 

What happens though when you have a rifle canted when you think it is visually level on installation, then level the crosshairs via a leveling tool, then pick up the rifle and bring it closer to real level whilst holding it, that would put the reticle on a cant wouldn't it?

The only way in that instance to keep the crosshairs in their initial level would be to attach an anti-cant device during the level process, and therefore you've got a standard to hold it to in the field.

But if you don't use an anti-cant device in the field, wouldn't you be closer to level if both the rifle and reticle were level in the initial process, and then you hold it level to the best of your ability?

Granted a person may not hold it exactly level in the field whilst not using an anti-cant device, but wouldn't it be more accurate to have both rifle and reticle perfectly level, then it's just human ability to hold it level in the field.

It may be nit-picking, but it seems to me, installation from eyeballing and a 1 point reticle level vs real 2 point level (rifle and reticle), wouldn't 2 point level be more accurate? (whilst acknowledging the final issue of human ability to hold true level in the field)

take the visual rifle level to the extreme, say a fairly out of whack level, then a perfect reticle level, and using an anti-cant device, when you pick the rifle up, youd have to muscle to rifle to bring the reticle into level, putting strain on the shooter.

Does that make sense, or am I still missing the point.
It may be more theoretical nitpicking on my part, though if I can apply theory or have a solid base to work from, it just makes it easier to get my head around.

Your 'where it feels comfy' is really the clincher i guess, as if stock is comfy there possibly would be minimal strain via muscling the rifle to get reticle into level in the field.

I think I said level too many times haha

Thanks for your input,
and thanks for the torque info, I am well aware of the inch pounds and I torque base clamps and ring halves via a fat wrench, and soon to be a nice Wiha, whilst installing bases to the receiver with a screwdriver snug by touch.

I degreased receiver holes, bases, screws and rings with shellite, then gave a light coat of birchwood casey barricade before installation (that was the topic of the thread here http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495268) as everything seems to rust on me and we are coming into winter hunting. I was worried about scope slip or screws coming loose as I thought the post treatment with barricade defeated the purpose of degreasing, but am worried about rust more than scope slip.

phew what a mouthful, cheers for reading if you got this far

 

re: magpul, are you referring to

Magpul Dynamics - The Art of the Precision Rifle ?

am looking at the free trailer, looks very interesting and i've really enjoyed previous videos i've seen from them, very sleek and to the point.

 

YEP, that's the one!!! Great video! I've been shooting for 25 years and learn something new every time I watch it. I like their philosophy on shooting techniques and the way they teach them. Their philosophies are a lot like mine and the way I was taught. I also like their economy in their teaching technique. It's to the point but rich in details, I never feel like they're leaving anything out.

 

Nah, I got you man.

I guess it's a little harder to explain over the internet than it is in person.

What my point was, is that everyone mounts the rifle differently. Your cheek weld, left and right hand grip/position, do you choke up on the rifle or not? There are a lot of factors here. But your head position, cheek weld, et Al are what really counts.

Like I said though, if you feel more comfortable laying a level on your rings, the putting one on the turret, then do THAT. I'm not just saying that, or trying to be a jerk. You have to be comfortable shooting your gun. Cause at the end of the day the gun is only ad accurate as you can shoot it.

As for theory versus applied, there's nothing wrong with doing your homework and learning as much as possible. I love tinkering with things and geeking out! I play guitar and either build or modify all of my own instruments, it's a ton of fun! With firearms, there is only so much I feel safe doing. Mounting a scope is luckily something I don't pay for!

But I would like to add one thing for you to think of. When an apple falls from a tree, it falls straight to the earth. It doesn't matter if the branch is curved or parallel to the ground. That was my point about what really only matters is the crosshairs being level to the earth. That's applied physics, and that's gravity's effect on all objects. So when you pull the trigger, as soon as the bullet starts moving gravity is trying to pull the bullet towards the ground. Doesn't matter if the gun is the "right" way up, 90'd with the bolt up, or with the receiver top pointing towards the ground. Whichever way the rifle is positioned the laws of physics are working against you. At this point, POA & POI would go right out the door! And that's my point, mount your scope so that your POA and POI are repeatable. Again, it depends on how YOU mount YOUR rifle when YOU shoot it.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, I'm just trying to share what I learned and was taught about these things. I've been taught from several accomplished shooters. I'm in no way saying that I know more or am better than you. I'm just sharing my experience.

Best of luck on your project buddy! At the end of the day, it's all about having fun when shooting your gun! Rock on and happy trails amigo.

 

cheers mate, thanks for your input

I never for a second thought you were being argumentative or anything along those lines, I hope I didn't come across that I took it that way or portrayed that I was doing the same, was just clarifying points, and as you say it is very hard over the internet than in person
I very much appreciate any constructive input of which yours definitely was.

hah it seems we have similar personalities, tinkering and geeking out, custom builds and tweeking things :bthumb:

will have to check out those dvds, looks good and quite cheap too! I have learnt heaps just from the previews.

Have a good one and good shooting to you.

 

Cool beans! Thanx. And cheers to you too.

I didn't read your response like that at all, and I'm glad you didn't read mine like that either. It is tough sometimes, especially since there's plenty of "know it alls" & such.