Nope. You are shooting MOA groups but not 1 MOA. At 50 yards 1 MOA is 1/2". I don't know if it is you or the rifle. Maybe get a known good shooter to try it.

 

Nope. You are shooting MOA groups but not 1 MOA. At 50 yards 1 MOA is 1/2". I don't know if it is you or the rifle.

As stated above not moa at 50 yards.

Guys, I know the entire group is not MOA at 50 yards.

I'm asking if anybody else sees that the gun is demonstrating that mechanically it is an MOA gun, not the shooter. For instance, if you take the 8 shot cluster in the center group and measure it CTC it is ~.56. 8 shots measuring .56 CTC at 50 yards doesn't get it done?

I need to adjust the scope and ad a bipod so that I can shoot tighter bad groups.

 

As stated above not moa at 50 yards. A couple of things I noticed that can be remedied and that is as you stated get a better stable platformed and the fact that you are not used to the ergonomics of the stock and trigger contributed to your problems.

Just my opinion but I find that for me when a trigger is too light that my shooting is not the best because I may accidentally shoot just before I have stopped letting my breath out. I do best with 3lb pulls and two stage triggers.

You already know what you need to do so keep us posted.

 

It certainly has potential. :t
First, a steady rest to get the groups as tight as possible, then find out if accuracy can be improved by playing with free floating the barrel or supporting it. Sometimes changing up the action screw torque will make a difference. When you think you have it wrung out sufficiently, move on to experimenting with ammo to see what it likes.
Keep up the good work, remembering that free advice is often worth what you pay for it.
Lotsa helpful people here, and some critics too.

 

Looks like it has potential to me .. in the right hands
Bi-Pod is just barely better than nothin' IMO.. get good front and rear bags or a mechanical front + rear bag.. or a 1-pc. mechanical.. that's the way to get a great baseline.. from there for Vermin shooting a bi-pod is fine.. I personally really dis-like pods on the bench. The above rest solutions/tools are about the same money as a good bi-pod.. or less.. and will serve you MUCH better than a pod..:bthumb: I always love shooting against a Gent on a Pod..
Your trigger/shooting work needs work... you know that. Dry Fire practice is cheap and must be a part of your practice.

Read up...
https://1022companion.wordpress.com/2015/01/10/dry-fire-practice/

On the cheap this rest is not too shabby... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013RD4FC/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?psc=1

higher end set up :

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/348661/caldwell-rock-br-competition-rifle-front-shooting-rest
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...ll-universal-deluxe-rear-shooting-rest-bag-medium-high-nylon-and-leather-filled

 

. get good front and rear bags or a mechanical front + rear bag.. or a 1-pc. mechanical.. that's the way to get a great baseline..

These are good suggestions and I have some of this equipment, I just hate to make 4 trips back and forth to the car lugging gear. Easier to shoot crappy groups. I lucked into a great shooting group and have fun no matter what happens; I'll definitely try to dial it in though.

A 1 MOA gun will shoot into 1 MOA ...that is 1" at 100 yds. and 1/2" at 50 yds. If it's not meeting that criteria then it's not a 1 MOA gun . If you exclude all shots that land outside of 1 MOA then any gun can be a 1 MOA gun .

So if I shoot a 5 shot group that is .48, then a 5 shot group that is .55 at 50 yards, it is only an MOA gun for one of those groups? "No, No, it shot MOA once so it is MOA from then on, even if you switch ammo and the groups open up to 2".

"If you exclude all shots that land outside of 1 MOA then any gun can be a 1 MOA gun". This is a valid criticism. I just look at two groups that only have 2 out of 10 that fall outside MOA with one of those being a 7 shot cloverleaf and I see something different. I don't think it is unreasonable to claim that the gun is definitely MOA as it sits. The shooter? Not so much.

AND.. I might mention that the Simmons optic (I think) is NOT optimal... a better optic is in order.:bthumb: It has NO A/O and is likely under-powered with a thick crosshair... the A/O is more important than you think.. aim small miss small.. better yet don't miss IF you have dialed out the Paralax and you are completely focused.

The scope has AO, I just stashed it on the side out of view, it is a Simmons side focus which I picked up cheap. I actually like it and I'm going to try to see if I can bring my group sizes up to forum standards with it. I'm not completely opposed to trying a different scope eventually, just fairly stubborn for now.

 

A 1 MOA gun will shoot into 1 MOA ...that is 1" at 100 yds. and 1/2" at 50 yds. If it's not meeting that criteria then it's not a 1 MOA gun . If you exclude all shots that land outside of 1 MOA then any gun can be a 1 MOA gun .

 

Provided you have one within the MOA circle.......

Or, you could just move the point of aim to the best point for proof......

B2

 

AND.. I might mention that the Simmons optic (I think) is NOT optimal... a better optic is in order.:bthumb: It has NO A/O and is likely under-powered with a thick crosshair... the A/O is more important than you think.. aim small miss small.. better yet don't miss IF you have dialed out the Paralax and you are completely focused.

 

AND.. I might mention that the Simmons optic (I think) is NOT optimal... a better optic is in order.:bthumb:

I've already added this to the gun to start the "dial in" phase in the hopes of satisfying the crowd with the calipers(short version):

and if my scope stubbornness doesn't prevail:

 

I didn't have a decent rest which aggravated my poor shooting performance.

Until you correct that problem, nothing else you do means anything.

 

You have to count the flyers, unless you know you messed up the shot.

 

I know I messed up the 3 outside the center 7 shot ragged hole and the two circled on the right side target. Now is it an MOA gun?

I'm not trying to irritate everybody, just trying to make a point. Had I shot 40 5 shot groups and ended up with 5 that were MOA, would it be an MOA gun by forum standards? To reiterate, I know I was shooting poorly after a month off. The 10 shot groups significantly increase the chances that I'm going to open up a group but clear patterns emerge as well, which is why I like them. Everybody seems fixated on the group measurement and not the point of the post.

Nobody has commented on whether or not it is considered an MOA gun if you turn in say, 20% of your groups at MOA but 80% that aren't. How does a gun rate then?

 

I can take any consistent sub moa rifle any of you chaps may have and not shoot even close to moa with it. My cheap ammo or your pet ammo for it.
Does that make it Not a moa gun?

 

Is this an MOA gun

Gcrank1-- I think a sub-moa rifle will always depend upon who is pulling the trigger. You may have a safe of pristine rifles, that will shoot; however, if you can't pull the trigger, and read the wind, you don't have a sub-moa rifle per your ability--not the rifle. Just my opinion-
BigBore--Perhaps your assembling of the rifle was in haste, as you seem to imply per first post, and there are so many things to check about the build, that I would assess before doubting it's accuracy. Have you checked the barrel's shooting free floated, or with pressure pads, or take down screw torque, or steady in front, and in rear? The combination you show should shoot very well if properly set up, and with a good glass, with more power. The scope looks like a 3x9--may be wrong. It is hard to shoot sub-moa with lower power scope at 50yds. I would also use some ducking aluminum tape on the receiver/stock, which is a good way to see if bedding would help without having to carve out the glass bedding. There is a lot of info on the use of this tape bedding on this site. I think you will like the trigger, as you get back into routine of shooting. Reassess the build, and practice, practice with good ammo.
You will diffidently need a steady front/rear support. It will take some range time to check out each part of assembly you have made. Good luck! I can still remember when a 1/2 inch at 50yds was excellent in a 10/22 rifle. When your desire is for a 1/4 inch at 50yds, you will have to spend more money as a % . perhaps a Kidd, 20 inch, match barrel, perhaps a Clark, Shilen, Federsen, Volq. etc., and a 24 to 36 quality scope, with thin crosshairs.

 

Gcrank1-- I think a sub-moa rifle will always depend upon who is pulling the trigger. You may have a safe of pristine rifles, that will shoot; however, if you can't pull the trigger, and read the wind, you don't have a sub-moa rifle per your ability--not the rifle. Just my opinion-

BigBore--Perhaps your assembling of the rifle was in haste, as you seem to imply per first post, and there are so many things to check about the build, that I would assess before doubting it's accuracy.

I don't think a bad shooter, ammunition or equipment failure e.g., loose scope disqualifies an accurate rifle.

Oh yeah, it was a hastily conceived and assembled rifle and there IS plenty of opportunity for improvement.:bthumb:

 

Just for reference, this is at 25 yards, bipod-and-shoulder, CZ 455 Varmint in 22LR. 5 shots.

THIS was an MOA rifle that day. Can't say it always was, but more oftener than not.

 

It is very difficult to maintain everything consistent from shot to shot to get 5 rounds into under an inch. I have at least one rifle that will do it - but, I have only accomplished it ONCE...LOL

 

A sub-MOA gun is like pornography, you know it when you see it, and if you have to ask it ain't it.

 

Get yourself a wagon and load up your stuff and pull it to the bench, that will solve your 4 trips

 

Ive got a similar set-up. Magpul Hunter X 22 stock, GM 18 inch fluted heavy barrel, BX trigger. I think mine pulls 2 pounds. It will punch consistent 1/2 inch 5 round groups at 50 yards with match grade standard velocity ammo.

But, it does require the premium ammo.

 

I've tried to be consistent throughout the thread about stating that I think the rifle, exclusive of the shooter--"gun is showing mechanical accuracy"--, is a MOA rifle. I think the 10 shot groups bolster my claim. I'm going to focus on this rifle for a while so there will be more opportunities to buttress my assertion.

So, we all seem to know with certainty what a MOA gun isn't. When does the rifle become a MOA rifle? 60% of the groups shot? 70%, 80%, 100%? If I shoot 9 out of 10 5 shot groups under MOA and the tenth is over MOA is it out of the MOA club? If I shoot 10 5 shot groups at 50 yards and they go something like 4 @ .4, 2 @ .5, 3 @ .6 & 1 @ .7 what kind of gun do I have?

 

I finally carved out a little range time this month. I assembled a gun out of parts and headed off to the range. I combined an Archangel stock, Green Mountain heavy taper barrel and BX trigger which was pulling at 1.5#'s after disassembly, cleaning, polishing and lube.

I have those same parts, except I polished a standard trigger to two pounds and my scope is a DOA 600 Bushnell or a 2.5x20 Barska depending on the day. With RWS Subsonic HP, at 50 yards it will put five shots inside a half inch circle consistently. It also liked Federal Game Shok 40gr in early tests.

A few points:

1. The barrel took some use before it provided its best accuracy. I've noticed this on other Green Mountain barrels too.

2. Experimenting with the barrel tension block position and tension may help. I removed mine or spun it all the way down so it doesn't touch the barrel.

3. A very hard cheekweld should essentially eliminate any parallax issues. That adjustable comb is the best feature of this rifle.

 

If you can consistently shoot 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards it is a MOA gun. For this I need toshoot from a solid bench and a solid set up. I primarily use a bipod on a stiff rubber pad and a rear bag. Contact with th rifle is minimal, no pressing or gripping or pushing.my thumb is not over the stock or around the grip, just flat against the side of the stock.

If I can’t put i bipod on the gun cause it has no, or the wrong sling stud, I use a Caldwell Tackdriver front bag, or a friends front rest.

1022s are persnickety, and in my experience need a pressure pad or two to secure the action into the stockand dampen barrel vibrations. I find the spot in front of the barrel block works best, and/ or a few inches behind the muzzel, like where the barrel band would be on a carbine.

You also need to torque the action screw to the sweet spot, just tight enough to stop all movement, but not so tight as to stress the action.

All this, and then you find what you’ve got.

On my field guns I’m satisfied with 1 inch groups at 50 yards, on my bench guns 1/2 that.

As for the light trigger syndrome you suffered , I find that the pinch technique, thumb on back of trigger guard index pad on trigger blade works better on light triggers.

And yes you are gonna need 1000 rounds thru that barrel for it to be consistent. I usually use Blazer to fire lap my bores, after that it’s SV 40 grain round nose.

And yes the CCI tactical ammo works pretty good , I attribute that to the longer body and narrower olive of the bullet. But I don’t like copper coated 22 because it’s just one more thing to clean out of the barrel.

 

If you can consistently shoot 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards it is a MOA gun.

As for the light trigger syndrome you suffered , I find that the pinch technique, thumb on back of trigger guard index pad on trigger blade works better on light triggers.

If I may press you, define "consistently". I'm struggling to get everybody to put a number on it. Again, everybody know for sure that my rifle is not an MOA gun but we are still struggling to define what is. Don't know how someone would "know it when they see it". Best spotted with a caliper IMO.

I like the trigger pull technique you describe, there's just no hope for me.

 

There is no proof that the rifle will shoot moa There is evidence that it MAY shoot moa. Potential is not verification.

However, you can call it whatever you want.

 

There is no proof that the rifle will shoot moa

I shot two 5 shot overlapping groups on the center bull. One 5 shot group was .383 and the other was 1.22". Proof!:bthumb:

 

1.22 is over one minute of angle. Statistically speaking it is not a Moa rifle. There is no hard and fast number on the amount of groups. As there is no definitive answer you can call it one now if you like. Technically to be a Moa rifle it would have to shoot to that standard every group every time. Some rifles are capable of that, but, as shooter I am not.

 

1.22 is over one minute of angle. Statistically speaking it is not a Moa rifle. There is no hard and fast number on the amount of groups. As there is no definitive answer you can call it one now if you like. Technically to be a Moa rifle it would have to shoot to that standard every group every time. Some rifles are capable of that, but, as shooter I am not.

A guaranteed way to shoot a one hole group is to only put on shot on the target.

shooting a multi-bull card that you can do a composite from and also identify each shot in the sequence and, perhaps more importantly, for sure and certain 'call the flyers' (errors) should show it well.
Then there is if the ammo is moa capable in that rifle and, if so, at what distance(s).
Is a 'moa package' at 25 and 50yd still an moa package if it cant at 100?

The discussion is starting to move into the area I was hoping. The OP was never about correcting the previous poor performance, it was about observing the pattern.

I do think numbers can be applied. I'm not a statistician but I'll start by saying anything over 50% makes the case. The higher the percentage the more likely its MOA. IMO, to look at the to groups that clearly show 80% consistent MOA performance and dismiss it is, well, unscientific?

Now, is the course of joking around to some degree, gcrank1 brought up a common debate in the shooting circles:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/4/30/precision-vs-accuracy/

This is not the definitive guide, just an example.

Another thing of note though, when I shift to different bulls on paper, I do see POI shifts sometimes, all else being equal, so that needs to be considered when making observations.

Finally, The thread is about a gun's mechanical accuracy by which I mean shooter excluded, gun, ammo is relevant in this case.

 

Isnt that the best way!
Kidding aside, shooting a multi-bull card that you can do a composite from and also identify each shot in the sequence and, perhaps more importantly, for sure and certain 'call the flyers' (errors) should show it well.
Then there is if the ammo is moa capable in that rifle and, if so, at what distance(s).
Is a 'moa package' at 25 and 50yd still an moa package if it cant at 100?
As a Half Century biker the analogy that keeps coming to mind is a motorcycle that has done 100mph a 100mph mc if it got there once, sometimes, most or all of the time?

 

I would back that scope mount up so it is in full contact with the receiver and then move the scope forward in the rings to get the desired eye relief. Not saying that is a factor but the mounting looks funky and doesn't provide full contact stability.

 

When you shoot 3 overlapping shots the next two put the pressure on messes with your head and it easier for the average decnet shooter to mess up his start of a grest group , ever shoot 4 shots in a ragged hole and almost just hate to shoot that last one ~~JMJ~~

 

When you shoot 3 overlapping shots the next two put the pressure on messes with your head and it easier for the average decnet shooter to mess up his start of a grest group , ever shoot 4 shots in a ragged hole and almost just hate to shoot that last one ~~JMJ~~

I did exactly that on the center group. I wanted to stop before I finished.

This is at 25 yards with an Archangel stock, Green Mountain heavy taper and IIRC CCI Tac also. Scope is an ATN digital thingy(skip to 1:35):

 

If you want to call it an MOA gun, then call it one. It's your gun, you can do what you want.

 

Thanks man. Your analysis throughout the thread has brought real clarity to the issue.

 

I believe my pet rhinoceros is a unicorn...

The clarity Bigbore is that a MOA at 50 yards is .5235 inch. The evidence provided by you, even excluding obvious flyers is that the rifle is shooting outside of 1 MOA.

Whether it is or isn't capable of better performance is undetermined but that day, based on that target, it was absolutely not a 1 MOA rifle.

Frank

 

The clarity Bigbore is that a MOA at 50 yards is .5235 inch. The evidence provided by you, even excluding obvious flyers is that the rifle is shooting outside of 1 MOA

Wow, ya just can't phight physics. What was I thinkin'? Thanks for bringing me back inside the guard rails, I was really out there for a while.

This thread has taught me something, everybody on this forum knows what MOA @ 50 yards is...………, uh, except me.