It's hard to tell from your pics if those are in the surface or on top. It could be rust or it could be lead. Not sure how/why lead would accumulate there inless the bore surface is rough there. If you can get a close-up of that area with your bore scope, you might better be able to tell what you're dealing with. And if you have any of those long "Q-Tips" you might be able to reach those spots from the muzzle to see how they "feel" -- if smooth, probably lead deposits; if rough, probably rust. Obviously, depending on which, your cleaning approach will be different. By the way, was this rifle bought new?

Doug

 

Thanks for the reply. I ran (carefully) both a FP-10 laden swab followed by a nylon brush thru the muzzle to the problem area. Then followed up with an FP-10 jag and 2 dry patches from the breech end. It's still there.
The rifle was purchased new. It's never been wet or stored in a damp environment. I wish I could get a better picture with my borescope, I used to, I guess I need to contact Teslong. These pics I took after my attempt at "backward" cleaning today. The 3rd pic is the clean barrel before you get to the problem area.

 

I’m no gunsmith so I’m just throwing this out there. I’m assuming carbon remover is relatively caustic and it sounds like you use it extensively. Could excessive use cause degradation of the bore? I don’t know. Just a thought.

 

I doubt the Bore-Tec carbon clean is the issue. I only use it in the chamber.

 

Easy way to find out....

Run a brush with solvent a dozen or so passes...then clean and dry.
Inspect.

 

In the pic #31, there is a definite 'line' on the right side of the pic. What are you doing at that point and 'where' is it in relation to the muzzle? Is there a 'rough spot' there ? Can you run a dental pick thru the 'deposits' ? I agree that C4 is Not likely to be the prob Unless you put a swab at the point I described on #31, for a long 'soak. I left some C4 in a barrel overnite to soak a C-ring and it left 'discoloured' marks sorta like a 'water-stain', But Not like the deposits you have here. IMO it looks like lead, but I'm not there.

 

I haven't left the C4 in the rifle. I only use it to get the carbon ring out of the chamber, leaving it only for a couple of minutes before chasing it with a FP-10 patch followed by a couple dry ones. I have no idea of "the line" you talk about in pic # 31. It looks like a land to me. (I'm going to contact Teslong because my scope resolution was better at some point, and I can't seem to fix it.) I guess I'm going to try a Hoppes soak next and see if it makes any difference before trying an abrasive on these deposits. (if they ARE deposits of some kind).

 

PS - Here's a pic of the C4 "Stain" in my B22-Sav earlier this year. In the chamber 'before' where the C-ring develops. The rifle has ca 2500 rounds and shoots in 0.3-6xx" at 50. Not quite as good as my VMTR.

 

I don't know anything about the fp-10 cleaner your using but the shooters choice of old was full of ammonia and if left in a barrel very long it could damage the bore.. hope that's not the case here.. believe I would get some jb bore paste on a iosso nylon brush and brush the heck out of that area..

 

I use these solvents on my 22 lr barrels to clean.
You can soak your barrel over night or a
week no harm.
Use a nylon or brass brush with your solvent.
Works for me.
But I have a bore scope to see how things
are coming.

 

Have big bottles of Hoppes #9, (always worked for Grandpappy), now, since I'm a now a Grandpappy, that's the next try, a Hoppes soak. I was probably being too gentle, kinda millennial parenting.

 

I would not use FP10 in rimfire barrels from which I expect excellent accuracy.
That is a CLP originally developed by George Fennell and then acquired by Shooter's Choice. It has terrific barrier (stay-behind lubricating) properties even after it dries. I would not want my .22lr match rifle bore lubed to that degree.
IMO/IME, you will be introducing another variable until you get it "shot out." George's CLPs have staying power.
In this rifle bore, I would first consider a cleaning with one of the physical abrasive polishes (JB Bore Paste, for example).
I would follow that with a Kroil cleaning, and I'd end with dry patches.
After that, in my more routine post-shoot cleanings, I'd do my chamber with C4. Then, if I wished for a bore solvent, I'd go with something like Hoppe's or Ballistol or Kroil.
If you want to leave in a bit of stay-behind protectant, I'd recommend dry patches as my next-to-last step before putting up the rifle, then just a drop or two of Ballistol on a patch as the final step.
Even then, I'd run a dry patch down the bore before heading to the range. I'd also foul with at least 10 rounds before shooting for score or measurement.
IMO: Don't love your bore to death. Clean it, but don't over-treat it.
Both my Lilja and my Desert Precision stainless match barrel bores get nothing more complex than a drop or two of Ballistol before they go up in the safe for the night or for the week.

 

I would not use FP10 in rimfire barrels from which I expect excellent accuracy.
That is a CLP originally developed by George Fennell and then acquired by Shooter's Choice. It has terrific barrier (stay-behind lubricating) properties even after it dries. I would not want my .22lr match rifle bore lubed to that degree.
IMO/IME, you will be introducing another variable until you get it "shot out." George's CLPs have staying power.
In this rifle bore, I would first consider a cleaning with one of the physical abrasive polishes (JB Bore Paste, for example).
I would follow that with a Kroil cleaning, and I'd end with dry patches.
After that, in my more routine post-shoot cleanings, I'd do my chamber with C4. Then, if I wished for a bore solvent, I'd go with something like Hoppe's or Ballistol or Kroil.
If you want to leave in a bit of stay-behind protectant, I'd recommend dry patches as my next-to-last step before putting up the rifle, then just a drop or two of Ballistol on a patch as the final step.
Even then, I'd run a dry patch down the bore before heading to the range. I'd also foul with at least 10 rounds before shooting for score or measurement.
IMO: Don't love your bore to death. Clean it, but don't over-treat it.
Both my Lilja and my Desert Precision stainless match barrel bores get nothing more complex than a drop or two of Ballistol before they go up in the safe for the night or for the week.

I have Hoppes 9 also. Should I try that before using an abrasive compound? Should I run a couple patches with Hoppes and then let it soak for a while? I always dry patch a couple times after the last solvent, so I don't expect much FP-10 residue to be left. My use of FP-10 was because it's relatively "Mild," so maybe it wouldn't disturb the beneficial lead fouling as much as some other solvents. Yes, it takes 5-10 rounds before a clean bore and chamber start to group again. I can't help but think that if I can get this residue out of the barrel, the groups will be even better. Thanks.

 

I see multiple mentions of a nylon bore brush. Why not a brass brush? It certainly won't hurt the bore steel.

 

There are guys here who use nylon only. They apparently believe bronze brushes are not good for the bore.

 

 

always perplexing-great tread. To clean or not to clean- I cleaned my mtr with light bore paste and kroil oil last year, it took me a brick of ammo to stop getting flyers and get my accuracy back. A nightmare cause the rifle was shooting great and I thought it would make it even better. Wrong call. I will only due that again as a last resort.
Now. I focus on the carbon ring with c-4 every 500-700 rounds. and bore scope it. I don't try and make it shiny and new. My understanding is the thin build up cause accuracy problems and\or flyers. So, i just try to keep it at bay so to speak. I clean every 3-4 cards during a match by running Ballistol on a patch thru a few times. If my scores are good and I'm not seeing flyers I don't clean at all.
idk. this method is working for me right now, so I'm going to stick with it until something breaks. I appreciate seeing what others do. Thanks

 

always perplexing-great tread. To clean or not to clean- I cleaned my mtr with light bore paste and kroil oil last year, it took me a brick of ammo to stop getting flyers and get my accuracy back. A nightmare cause the rifle was shooting great and I thought it would make it even better. Wrong call. I will only due that again as a last resort.
Now. I focus on the carbon ring with c-4 every 500-700 rounds. and bore scope it. I don't try and make it shiny and new. My understanding is the thin build up cause accuracy problems and\or flyers. So, i just try to keep it at bay so to speak. I clean every 3-4 cards during a match by running Ballistol on a patch thru a few times. If my scores are good and I'm not seeing flyers I don't clean at all.
idk. this method is working for me right now, so I'm going to stick with it until something breaks. I appreciate seeing what others do. Thanks

I guess I was focusing too much on just the carbon ring, trying to NOT remove all the beneficial lead fouling, then, I found this. For all I know, it coulda been there from the factory.

 

I clean all my barrels with thorro clean.. it is a very mild abrasive.. but I clean my barrels to bare metal every 80 to a hundred rounds.. I dunk a iosso nylon brush down in it and give the bore 20 or so strokes back and forth.. bore from one end to the other bare metal cleaning every time.. takes about 4 or 5 foulers to go back to shooting like it should.. the mtr I just shot that 250 grean monster with has probably 5000 rounds down it.. been using the thorro clean for about 3 years now and won't consider any of the other stuff.. my .02 cents

 

One philosophy I fail to understand is the "It's ok to use any one of several types of abrasive bore cleaner like JB or Iosso but it is not ok to use a brass bore brush". Can someone point me to a link where a brass brush has ever been proven to harm a steel barrel?
I say that with a couple caveats in mind. First, I do agree that a brass bore brush could be contaminated with firing residue which could possibly be abrasive, so keep your brushes clean. Second, I've witnessed people rip their cleaning rods back and forth like they are trying to start a chainsaw. Impacts are not your friend. If there is any step on the end of the cleaning rod from the brush or jag, don't bang it into your crown on the retract.

In my opinion, if you really want to clean that barrel, but you won't use a brass brush, you're just being silly. Regardless of your cleaning technique, once it is clean, you will want to go through your standard bore seasoning process.

 

My honest advice: Stay chill.
Your rifle likely isn't hurt, nor are you likely to hurt it. My guess is we've got a wee bit of discoloration here, and it can be handled with a relatively modest effort.
Honestly, I'd use some Iosso or JB's on a bronze brush (I generally get my brushes and swabs from Dewey's).
If you're averse to bronze brashes, you can always try a nylon one. Dewey's and Iosso both make nice versions.
If you're worried about barrel harm, just push from chamber to muzzle, remove brush before each pull-back. Start with maybe a dozen strokes.
(Use a nice rod. I like a .20-cal one-piece polished stainless from Dewey's, but some guys prefer an option from Bore Tech.)
Then do a wet Kroil patch, followed with a fresh brush with some Kroil on it.
Then use some damp Kroil patches, then dry patches.
Again, no expert, but I think you'll end up with a spotless barrel.

 

My honest advice: Stay chill.
Your rifle likely isn't hurt, nor are you likely to hurt it. My guess is we've got a wee bit of discoloration here, and it can be handled with a relatively modest effort.
Honestly, I'd use some Iosso or JB's on a bronze brush (I generally get my brushes and swabs from Dewey's).
If you're averse to bronze brashes, you can always try a nylon one. Dewey's and Iosso both make nice versions.
If you're worried about barrel harm, just push from chamber to muzzle, remove brush before each pull-back. Start with maybe a dozen strokes.
(Use a nice rod. I like a .20-cal one-piece polished stainless from Dewey's, but some guys prefer an option from Bore Tech.)
Then do a wet Kroil patch, followed with a fresh brush with some Kroil on it.
Then use some damp Kroil patches, then dry patches.
Again, no expert, but I think you'll end up with a spotless barrel.

I'm chill. You kinda get that way after 75 years on the rock. Just looking for other opinions (and getting them), since this is a NEW (1K) rifle and it's actually the first time I've really run the borescope when cleaning, much past the chamber and the 1st few inches of rifling. It did surprise me as to what I found. For now, and the now could be a week, I'm going to start with a good Hoppes #9 soak and see what resolves. I've got mops and both kinds of .22 cal brushes if needed. Kroil, I've never had, but many swear by it. Thanks.

 

I don’t clean the barrels on mine until the accuracy falls off.

 

How many rounds does that generally take? for me it seems like 500-700.

 

I agree.. I don't think a bronze brush will hurt a barrel at all.. I just prefer the iosso nylon brushes..

 

A good bronze brush (Proshot etc) won't hurt the barrel, period. Nylon brushes don't clean as well. After a match I use a new-ish bronze brush and it removes any carbon ring that's formed. I rarely have to use C4. I couldn't do that with a nylon brush

 

I’m [probably going to get some slack here but for the most part I agree with the bronze brush idea. In fact if I have a stubborn spot and can’ t get it with a nylon brush I’ll switch over to the bronze and give it a couple of strokes through the barrel.
The reason I use a nylon brush is I like to work the chamber area with C4 only at times and it’s not a good thing to change directions inside a bore with a bronze brush. A nylon brush you can do that much easier than a bronze brush.
In our club we have many of the old timers that even say with the newer and better nylon brushes they are very good at overall cleaning.
Is there a place for the bronze/brass brushes, absolutely! I just use them when I feel I need to.

 

Admittedly it's hard to tell what those spots are in the photos, but I've read that some times 22 bullets will run out of lubricant leaving lead deposits near the end of the barrel. Was the ammo that you shot shortly before discovering the marks near the end of the barrel different than what you'd shot in the past?

I have a similar experience when taking photos with my older Teslong bore scope. What I see on the screen is more crisp than any photos I've ever taken. Changing the focus hasn't helped on mine.

 

Admittedly it's hard to tell what those spots are in the photos, but I've read that some times 22 bullets will run out of lubricant leaving lead deposits near the end of the barrel. Was the ammo that you shot shortly before discovering the marks near the end of the barrel different than what you'd shot in the past?

I have a similar experience when taking photos with my older Teslong bore scope. What I see on the screen is more crisp than any photos I've ever taken. Changing the focus hasn't helped on mine.

Same Midas+. Just never looked that far up the barrel. Rifle only has about 1K rounds thru it.

 

RWL - Good suggestion on the Lead-issue, may be on to something.
As for the pics, it's sometimes difficult getting a clear image when the Teslong is recording. I stop the lens motion and then what I do is take a 'screen-shot' with "prt cr" button on my keyboard. Select "Full screen", Then I copy into Word, with the page set to "Narrow Margins" and "Landscape" to get a large image. Right-clik on the pic after that and select "Save as picture". Name it so you can find it again, likely it will go into the "Download" folder. This is a couple more steps than using the 'Media Player', but I get a really clear image. PS - I'm on Win 11 and MS-365 on a laptop, using the Teslong on the "Camera" app.

 

aimtru22 - PW is right about the C-ring. When it builds up it will 'scratch' the side of the bullet as it passes thru. That irregularity can cause imbalance in the rotation of the bullet, causing it too 'corkscrew' in flight and also may affect the aerodynamic flow. Lots of substantiation of this. NOT "Opinions".
Here's a link to an older thread about this >

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/damaged-bullet-affect-accuracy.460851/

and a YT vid ( I love this one) of 'extreme damage' effects >

 

Calfee always referred to how it sized the bullet down but, knowing how uneven the carbon ring forms, your description defines it better in most cases. If you let it get to the point where the whole bullet is sized down and rattling down the bore, Calfee's description works.

 

OK boyz, I tried a Hoppes #9 swab followed by vigorous stroking with a nylon brush. Dried it up with 3 dry patching's, then inserted the borescope. The Hoppes didn't touch it that I can see, but maybe I didn't leave it long enough? (2 Min). I've got some Thoro-clean coming tomorrow or Friday and still haven't tried a bronze or brass brush. My plan is to try the Thoro-Clean next with a new Losso nylon brush and intense scrubbing, before trying metalic brushes. The chamber and all of the barrel except the last 8" are spotless and down to bare metal as you might expect.

 

Unless you've let it go for a long time I'd be willing to bet that a Pro Shot 22 bronze brush would take care of it

Not sure why everyone's afraid to use a proper brush but they're willing to use all these chemicals that are possibly harder on the bore than the bronze brush

 

You might try scrubbing with patches soaked with Kroil and J&B Bore Paste wrapped around a .410 nylon brush (just fits in a .22 bore). I used to use that with my .22 centerfire rifles. It will really clean your bore.

 

What Hoppe’s for two min. LOL
How about all night soak let it work and get
under the lead.
I am with PWNolan…..some like to make
cleaning a gun barrel into brain surgery 😁

 

Pat, I very much respect your opinion, and you may well be right. But I do NOT like putting a bronze brush through my rifles’ bores. I have done it, but it makes me cringe — sorta like fingernails on a blackboard. Nylon brushes, fine, but I always much prefer standard CLP products and C4 for my chambers/leades.

 

You'd hate to attend a ARA UL match where most everyone is pushing them through their SS match barrels that are softer than any chrome-moly factory barrel. There'd be a lot of cringing going on 😆 Especially at a big match lol

I've pretty much stopped using C4

 

I'm sure they work, Pat, but after almost 60 years, I ain't changing. 😁

Doug