I recently bought a Custom Shop 10/22 Competition. It was a good shooter in stock form but I wanted a true bench rifle out of it. So I installed a Green Mountain 19.5” heavy muzzle .920” barrel. The last 4” of the muzzle is 1.06”. I also replaced the heavy 3.5 lb factory trigger with a Kidd two stage 6 ounce. It’s an extremely good shooting rifle now but I have to shim the barrel forward to get the bullets to chamber in the center of the chamber. Right now they are scraping the bottom of the chamber and shaving lead. Eley Flat nose bullets jam regularly and don’t perform well because of the bullet deformation. I believe that shimming it out to get it feeding centered in the chamber will solve this problem. My question is, would putting a slight chamfer in the opening of the chamber hurt performance or just aid in stopping any lead shaving? I don’t want anything extreme, just to take the knife edge off the chamber.
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Shimming could help - unless the problem is caused by the magazine, in the context of feeding/being properly seated.
Breaking the edge of the chamber mouth couldn’t hurt imo, but it also may not help, you really don’t see it out there.
Breaking the edge of the chamber mouth couldn’t hurt imo, but it also may not help, you really don’t see it out there.
Had a GM barrel of that size on a 10/22. It wasn't shaving or deforming the bullets much or any, but it was a bit sticky about feeding. I chamfered the chamber just a bit. Ran like a top and accuracy was fine (maybe better I didn't document it enough).
If the rifle shoots “extremely” well with everything but the EPS Eley, I would just not shoot that ammunition in that rifle. I’ve had feeding and chambering issues with it in my tight-chambered bolt action sporters, but never found the EPS to shoot as well as other Eley anyway. I wouldn’t permanently alter a barrel that shoots as well as you indicate to chase accuracy that probably isn’t there.
I also would recommend trying other magazines or magazine-related parts and fitting. The design has been nearly perfected. Finally, while shaving can be bad, there’s no guarantee the unshaven bullets will shoot any better. It’s usually base deformation that negatively impacts accuracy, though not always.
I also would recommend trying other magazines or magazine-related parts and fitting. The design has been nearly perfected. Finally, while shaving can be bad, there’s no guarantee the unshaven bullets will shoot any better. It’s usually base deformation that negatively impacts accuracy, though not always.
Heavy barrel, it may be barrel droop. Try something under the barrel first to raise it very slightly.
I had the same issue with a Feddersen barrel and Eley EPS. I just changed ammo. Center X works good in my Feddersen.
I'm really not trying to bust your chops here, but I would hate for others to think their rifles should shoot as well as yours do. Just confirming, then, you are actually shooting "lots of groups" now smaller than ".05-.08”"at 50 yards, CCI SV is now averaging less than ".24" groups," and your Tikka shoots even smaller groups than this 10/22? Are your decimals in the right place? I've been a gunsmith for 47 years and built a dozen or so .22 LR rifles using hand-lapped barrels with tight match chambers, and some fitted with tuners and mounted in precision benchrest bolt actions, and I have never approached that level of precision. Occasional lucky groups? Yes. Consistently? No.
I also don't understand how one can achieve .0003" trueness with the barrel tenon and bolt face when the bolt must float somewhat in the receiver to function. I once made a 10/22 receiver out of brass and initially made the bolt fit in the receiver as tight as possible, hoping for maximum precision. The result was 2-3 shots then a frozen action from even the small amount of fouling from those few shots. It wasn't until I opened the tolerances up so the the bolt could be wiggled about .003" to .004" in the receiver that the rifle would finally shoot reliably.
JME
I also don't understand how one can achieve .0003" trueness with the barrel tenon and bolt face when the bolt must float somewhat in the receiver to function. I once made a 10/22 receiver out of brass and initially made the bolt fit in the receiver as tight as possible, hoping for maximum precision. The result was 2-3 shots then a frozen action from even the small amount of fouling from those few shots. It wasn't until I opened the tolerances up so the the bolt could be wiggled about .003" to .004" in the receiver that the rifle would finally shoot reliably.
JME
Well
The .0003” is a typo. It’s.003”
First off .0003” was a typo that should have been.003”. And I didn’t say groups less than but equal to. All the videos have been posted here on several occasions to show my claims. However, everyone that chooses to discredit me refuses to watch them. Many forum members here have subscribed to my channel and enjoy my content. They are very supportive. Instead of trying to make me look bad, why don’t you post some pictures or videos showing how well the rifles you build shoot. I think that would be more effective.
I will try the 50 yard target and give you the results. My first day off will be Monday. If the weather is good I’ll try it.
"...why don’t you post some pictures or videos showing how well the rifles you build shoot. I think that would be more effective."
Already done, over the last 16 years. You'll note I have 8378 posts, now 8379, in almost all of which I have documented with copious pics and extensive verbiage, showing and describing the build process, many of the builds that I mentioned above, including 2 or 3 completely scratch builds (the aforementioned brass 10/22, an 80% Low Wall, a side-lever falling block of my own design), and re-barreling and restocking Winchester 52s, Remington 37s, BSA Internationals, Sako M78s, Dakota M10s, Ruger #1s, Anschutz 1427s, Mauser 340Bs, 1885 Low Walls, Turbos, and several custom actions, including a Miller-Farrow, all including targets and all easily accessed with a simple search for anyone interested to see.
Like I said, just trying to make sure everyone knows their rifles will not likely shoot like yours.
Already done, over the last 16 years. You'll note I have 8378 posts, now 8379, in almost all of which I have documented with copious pics and extensive verbiage, showing and describing the build process, many of the builds that I mentioned above, including 2 or 3 completely scratch builds (the aforementioned brass 10/22, an 80% Low Wall, a side-lever falling block of my own design), and re-barreling and restocking Winchester 52s, Remington 37s, BSA Internationals, Sako M78s, Dakota M10s, Ruger #1s, Anschutz 1427s, Mauser 340Bs, 1885 Low Walls, Turbos, and several custom actions, including a Miller-Farrow, all including targets and all easily accessed with a simple search for anyone interested to see.
Like I said, just trying to make sure everyone knows their rifles will not likely shoot like yours.
jonnyfox64
I have divided this post into two sections in order to address two separate topics in this response.
Pay attention to rule number 11 in particular…
Our beloved TBR a.k.a. TEDDY BEAR RAT is one of the single most skilled, knowledgeable, honest, and prolific builders/restorers of a broad range of rimfire and centerfire rifles that has ever graced this board. His machining and shooting skills are top flight. It is quite likely that the man has forgotten more than I will ever know about firearms.
I’m not kidding, TBR is the real deal.
By way of example –
Thirteen years ago, when I was the moderator of the Ruger 10-22 areas, including the Ultimate 1022 Forum, I was blessed to have witnessed the evolution of his Brass 1022 build, a rifle that I would seriously consider trading a body part for, lol.
Seriously – check these two threads:
New Project!: Making a Brass 10/22 Receiver from Scratch
Brass 10-22: Afield in God’s Country (pic heavy)
I wish you success in moving forward with your project. Just understand that this community is full of people who have already gone over the territory that you are covering- relentlessly pursuing every last bit of accuracy that can be wrung out of the 1022 platform, with micrometer precision & OCD fervor & curiosity- hundreds of times over, going back decades.
Take the time to go back through all of the stickies in the 1022 Action and 1022 Ultimate forum. You will find countless pages of in-depth analysis and results catalogued there, over hundreds of pages of content.
Good luck in your pursuit-
DrGunner
PS- if BR 10-22 shooting is the sole focus of your current project, you might want to look into Joe Chacon and ABRA.
I have divided this post into two sections in order to address two separate topics in this response.
I would request that you please go read the RFC rules in their entire entirety.
Pay attention to rule number 11 in particular…
jonnyfox- you are relatively new here, so I will attempt to enlighten you on exactly who it is you have locked horns with here.
Our beloved TBR a.k.a. TEDDY BEAR RAT is one of the single most skilled, knowledgeable, honest, and prolific builders/restorers of a broad range of rimfire and centerfire rifles that has ever graced this board. His machining and shooting skills are top flight. It is quite likely that the man has forgotten more than I will ever know about firearms.
I’m not kidding, TBR is the real deal.
By way of example –
Thirteen years ago, when I was the moderator of the Ruger 10-22 areas, including the Ultimate 1022 Forum, I was blessed to have witnessed the evolution of his Brass 1022 build, a rifle that I would seriously consider trading a body part for, lol.
Seriously – check these two threads:
New Project!: Making a Brass 10/22 Receiver from Scratch
Brass 10-22: Afield in God’s Country (pic heavy)
I wish you success in moving forward with your project. Just understand that this community is full of people who have already gone over the territory that you are covering- relentlessly pursuing every last bit of accuracy that can be wrung out of the 1022 platform, with micrometer precision & OCD fervor & curiosity- hundreds of times over, going back decades.
Take the time to go back through all of the stickies in the 1022 Action and 1022 Ultimate forum. You will find countless pages of in-depth analysis and results catalogued there, over hundreds of pages of content.
Good luck in your pursuit-
DrGunner
PS- if BR 10-22 shooting is the sole focus of your current project, you might want to look into Joe Chacon and ABRA.
Well, it’s not the first time I’ve been accused of being tactless and probably won’t be the last. I did offer my suggestions in my first post. After I saw some of the numbers you were quoting, I actually waited 3 days before my second post and had initially decided to just let it go…then, the crotchety old man in me made his usual appearance.
JonnyFox,
I just read through this thread and I feel like your initial question, perhaps, hasn't been adequately answered. If your barrel has a dead sharp edge at the mouth of the chamber, that is not the way it is supposed to be. The SAAMI 22LR chamber drawing calls for 0.005 +0.010R at the chamber mouth. If you try to chamfer this edge, be aware that sometimes even the 45-degree corners of a chamfer can be sharp enough to shave lead. If you did chamfer the chamber mouth, you might still consider rounding the corners.
You haven't stated how long the barrel tenon is. Also, how much bullet stick-out do you have in this configuration? I think the correct thing to do is to machine the tenon to the correct length and eliminate the shims. This will, of course, shorten the chamber, which may improve accuracy futher.
Finally, I looked through your youtube channel and couldn't find the video where you were shooting 0.05 - .08" groups. That is roughly 1/16" center to center. I am skeptical because if your rifle really was capable of that level of accuracy at 50 yards, it would likely be the worlds most accurate 22LR rifle.
I just read through this thread and I feel like your initial question, perhaps, hasn't been adequately answered. If your barrel has a dead sharp edge at the mouth of the chamber, that is not the way it is supposed to be. The SAAMI 22LR chamber drawing calls for 0.005 +0.010R at the chamber mouth. If you try to chamfer this edge, be aware that sometimes even the 45-degree corners of a chamfer can be sharp enough to shave lead. If you did chamfer the chamber mouth, you might still consider rounding the corners.
You haven't stated how long the barrel tenon is. Also, how much bullet stick-out do you have in this configuration? I think the correct thing to do is to machine the tenon to the correct length and eliminate the shims. This will, of course, shorten the chamber, which may improve accuracy futher.
Finally, I looked through your youtube channel and couldn't find the video where you were shooting 0.05 - .08" groups. That is roughly 1/16" center to center. I am skeptical because if your rifle really was capable of that level of accuracy at 50 yards, it would likely be the worlds most accurate 22LR rifle.
Three 5 round groups is not enough to choose ammo. And also it would be better if people didn't fixate on a single or a few out of dozens of good groups. All of it is just statistical variation. You will now and again get some incredibly small groups with any rifle and any ammo. The better the rifle and ammo the more often it will happen, but without more than 3 groups it does not mean very much.
If you've never seen them, Hornady podcasts on youtube are worth watching. Episode #50 and #52 specifically. It goes over how to determine what is accuracy and how accurate something is. So people tend to say "it is a 1 moa or 1/2 moa rifle all day long". Well if it shoots 30 or 50 shot groups that don't run over those numbers it makes some sense. But for instance in their testing which is centerfire mostly, they said they've yet to see a .25 MOA rifle and .5 MOA is pretty rare.
I'd say ten 5 shot groups is where you start to get consistent statistical validity. You can repeat those with same rifle and ammo finding the average of each ten groups will not vary very much. It would be better if people had the habit of shooting 30 shot groups or a pair of 20 shot groups to give an indication of basic accuracy. It seems a point difficult to get across.
If you've never seen them, Hornady podcasts on youtube are worth watching. Episode #50 and #52 specifically. It goes over how to determine what is accuracy and how accurate something is. So people tend to say "it is a 1 moa or 1/2 moa rifle all day long". Well if it shoots 30 or 50 shot groups that don't run over those numbers it makes some sense. But for instance in their testing which is centerfire mostly, they said they've yet to see a .25 MOA rifle and .5 MOA is pretty rare.
I'd say ten 5 shot groups is where you start to get consistent statistical validity. You can repeat those with same rifle and ammo finding the average of each ten groups will not vary very much. It would be better if people had the habit of shooting 30 shot groups or a pair of 20 shot groups to give an indication of basic accuracy. It seems a point difficult to get across.
I have not read many (most!) of the posts in this thread, but relative to the OP's original question . . .
I have used a dremel tool with craytex-type abrasive cylinders to both chamfer and polish the bottom of the chamber of my TBR competition 10/22. This has GREATLY improved feeding, along with slight recontouring and polishing of the feed ramps on the magazines. The fired cases show a very slight bulge where the chamfer is, but again, vastly improved feeding and ejection with this simple modification.
I'll see if I can get a photo of this.
I have used a dremel tool with craytex-type abrasive cylinders to both chamfer and polish the bottom of the chamber of my TBR competition 10/22. This has GREATLY improved feeding, along with slight recontouring and polishing of the feed ramps on the magazines. The fired cases show a very slight bulge where the chamfer is, but again, vastly improved feeding and ejection with this simple modification.
I'll see if I can get a photo of this.
In spite of what some here seem to believe, no rifle shoots better than the shooter - they don’t shoot themselves. If a poster shows tiny groups from his rifle it is because of the combination of shooter and rifle. The poster above is being too modest - or is detached from reality. I prefer to believe the former. A poor shooter does not shoot tiny groups consistently. Period.
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I deleted the picture since you claim it is a false one. This was shot in the rain but however was videotaped. So it doesn’t look correct. I measured from widest point
The spring in the 10/22 magazines will only go in one way. The amount of tension you put on the spring is critical though for proper feeding. As is the feed lips being smooth and properly shaped.
Your photo had some very nice groups, just not the values posted. There are lots of instructions online on how to measure group size, but here is a short summary:
1) Measure the outside width of a single bullet hole not connected to any other shots. This will likely give about ~.215" for most 22LR holes on most paper types.
2) Measure outside to outside of the maximum distance between the two shots in the group furthest apart. (For example .700")
3) Subtract the first measurement (i.e. .215") from the second measurement i.e. .700" - .215" = .485" to get the proper group size, in this example = .485".
Using this method you will see that if two shots within a group are not connected in a single hole, the group size cannot be smaller than the size of one hole (i.e. .215").
Then there is the whole averaging of multiple groups issue, with different views on how many groups should be used to define a rifle's inherent precision . . .
PS - My view is, at a minimum, a single target paper with six targets shot (5 shots per target) and groups measured, dropping the worst group and averaging the best five.
1) Measure the outside width of a single bullet hole not connected to any other shots. This will likely give about ~.215" for most 22LR holes on most paper types.
2) Measure outside to outside of the maximum distance between the two shots in the group furthest apart. (For example .700")
3) Subtract the first measurement (i.e. .215") from the second measurement i.e. .700" - .215" = .485" to get the proper group size, in this example = .485".
Using this method you will see that if two shots within a group are not connected in a single hole, the group size cannot be smaller than the size of one hole (i.e. .215").
Then there is the whole averaging of multiple groups issue, with different views on how many groups should be used to define a rifle's inherent precision . . .
PS - My view is, at a minimum, a single target paper with six targets shot (5 shots per target) and groups measured, dropping the worst group and averaging the best five.
I don't think the values posted on your targets could be due to rain shrinkage alone. Can you post or send an image file (i.e. jpg, png, TIFF, or an actual size pdf file) not a WebP so that it can be properly downloaded and manipulated? If you prefer, we could take this offline onto the PM function.
i have also had issues with bullet 'denting' and bullet 'shaving' on a mostly kidd and a kidd supergrade and ruger-brownells 10/22's. don't know why but the problem varies with every one i have checked ( about 20)
i believe that 'tuning' the 10 round rotary spring is important. as the magazines come from the factory, i have noticed scrapes on the next round brass and bullet that i felt was due to the extra upward pressure from the tightly wound spring.
it seems that turning the 'nut' 7-8 flats is sufficient for propper feeding. i have tried shimming the barrel on both rifles. all 4 have kidd magazine latch plungers, and all have had some chamfering of the breech. in all cases the bullet hits the bottom of the breech.
i have shims in 2 10/22s. the assembly method of the supergrade limits the shim range unless you alter the notches for the 2 barrel screws, i don't have the skills to go there. all 4 of my 10/22's deform the bullets slightly, but i am most concerned with the ones that i shoot at longer ranges (80-200yds) in local matches.
also, i have tried 'tweaking' the magazines. polishing the metal feed lips, filing the front edge of the feed lip, applying aluminum tape to shim the angle of the magazine when installed in the well, etc. thin strips on the upper part of the front face and lower face of the back, slightly tilting the mags upward. all my triggers have the kidd magazine latches and springs.
i have 3 old butler creek 10 round mags that seem to work well as do the 15 round ruger mags, but they are not perfect either
and yet the result seems to at best to minimize the 'dent' in the nose or shiny spot on the shoulder of the bullet. just the nature of the beast i guess, since the path from mag to chamber is always upward.
i would suggest everyone who might wonder about bullet deformation run a few rounds with each magazine. (safety on) and examine the ejected rounds for bullet damage. having done this with 4 rifles, i have a small pile of unuseable unfired rounds with bent and deformed bullets-so suggest not using your eley tenex. also make sure the rifle in empty after testing, sometimes getting the live round out of a tight match chamber is a problem.....
really appreciate hearing about solutions from other and more experienced shooters.
i believe that 'tuning' the 10 round rotary spring is important. as the magazines come from the factory, i have noticed scrapes on the next round brass and bullet that i felt was due to the extra upward pressure from the tightly wound spring.
it seems that turning the 'nut' 7-8 flats is sufficient for propper feeding. i have tried shimming the barrel on both rifles. all 4 have kidd magazine latch plungers, and all have had some chamfering of the breech. in all cases the bullet hits the bottom of the breech.
i have shims in 2 10/22s. the assembly method of the supergrade limits the shim range unless you alter the notches for the 2 barrel screws, i don't have the skills to go there. all 4 of my 10/22's deform the bullets slightly, but i am most concerned with the ones that i shoot at longer ranges (80-200yds) in local matches.
also, i have tried 'tweaking' the magazines. polishing the metal feed lips, filing the front edge of the feed lip, applying aluminum tape to shim the angle of the magazine when installed in the well, etc. thin strips on the upper part of the front face and lower face of the back, slightly tilting the mags upward. all my triggers have the kidd magazine latches and springs.
i have 3 old butler creek 10 round mags that seem to work well as do the 15 round ruger mags, but they are not perfect either
and yet the result seems to at best to minimize the 'dent' in the nose or shiny spot on the shoulder of the bullet. just the nature of the beast i guess, since the path from mag to chamber is always upward.
i would suggest everyone who might wonder about bullet deformation run a few rounds with each magazine. (safety on) and examine the ejected rounds for bullet damage. having done this with 4 rifles, i have a small pile of unuseable unfired rounds with bent and deformed bullets-so suggest not using your eley tenex. also make sure the rifle in empty after testing, sometimes getting the live round out of a tight match chamber is a problem.....
really appreciate hearing about solutions from other and more experienced shooters.
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