Both the Hornady and CCI hm2 are produced on the same machines at the same factory.
Only differences are tip colors, head stamps and labeling. Variations in results on target
are due to production slop on the assembly line. Sometimes CCI gets it right, sometimes not.

Hornady provides all the bullets, CCI provides brass, primer, powder and assembly.

 

What you are saying I think is correct.
One problem though.
Gent above is not shooting vmax bullets.
What he is shooting is different and I think has a thinner jacket.

I do think there is a velocity difference between 17 grainers vmax comparing hornady and cci.
And this speed difference could make one group better than the other (barrel wise).

 

Same cartridges, different labels.
FPS rating differences on the two are such a small percentage in variation
that the number is essentially meaningless when compared to chronographed mv's.
All the 17 cal bullets are made by Hornady, ballistic tip, fmj and hp.
Actual mv depends on how well CCI is running the line that day.
Roll those cartridges on a flat surface and watch for tip wobble.
Compare seating depth and angle differences, it will explain much.
CCI still uses a punch plate and spreader to manually prime the brass.
Not the most consistent method of producing tight mv's.

 

Is there a hornady VNT round?

90 FPS difference. Quite a lot. If this is average comparing rounds.

 

Rated mv is 2100 fps for the Hornady, 24 inch barrel.
90 fps is less than 0.5 % difference.
You'll chrony a wider variation than that in the real world.
Caused by the CCI production process.

I don't see a hollow point hm2 on the Hornady site.
Only the ballistic tip.

 

Better check your math.
I come up with some thing else. Far bigger percentage.

One percent of 2100 FPS or 2010 FPS is around 21 FPS.
So, 90 FPS would be nearer 5 percent difference.

 

Thanks for the replies.

The CCI is nickel plated cases and a SPEER VNT projectile.
The Hornady is standard brass with VMAX.

Thanks

 

Skip al I had same problem 2 to3 in group at fifty Hornady was a lot tighter group and everyone keeps saying they’re tha same obviously they’re not

 

Be impossible for them to be the same.
Only the cci rounds use the speer projectile.

Change projectile anything could happen. Could pattern worse or better than the vmax.
Reports thus far I won’t be buying any of the VNT stuff.
Got loads of cci vmax to eat up on squirrels anyway,
Some hornady.

 

I think the confusion is based on the old black tip CCI using the VMAX.

I've emailed my countries importer to see what they can do, maybe I got a bad batch. I've never seen any firearm/ammo combination group so badly in my life.

Open bolt automatic machine gun would beat it with ease...

 

Curious,
Did you clean your barrel real good before you tried the VNT stuff?
And how many total VNT rounds have you tried thus far at targets?

 

I blame my flu meds for the poor math, SQ1.
Normally I stay out of the hm2 forums.
Boredom and inactivity led me to stray.
Check the test barrel length for a possible explanation of mv rating.
NyQuil is kicking in so ya'll continue the conversation.
I'll read the followups in the morning.
Hopefully less medicated and more coherent.

 

Barrel was cleaned before using the CCI. Here is a target showing 9 shots of CCI on left and 6 Hornady on the right. I fired 3 and adjusted it down with the Hornady.

I fired 30 CCI all up and 2 rounds hit the orange dot out 30. Rest barely hit the paper. One that hit appeared to have key holed.

 

Seen shotguns do better, no joke. Looks like bullet is not even touching the sides of barrel. Just tumbling down the barrel. Slingshot accurate. Maybe not.

Maybe I should pick up one box and see what either my lilja barrels do.

 

Currently there is 4 flavors

2100fps hornady 17grain
15.5 ntx hornady
2010fps cci
2010fpa cci vnt

For my green mountain barrel the hornady 17 is really good, with the cci being on the ragged edge of downright poor. Only found one box of vnt last time down south and non so far up north here, sample size is rather small. (25 rounds per barrel). It was better than the standard cci but not good. Don't have the full measurements offhand but was .75ish at 50 for the hornady, 1.75ish for the vnt, smidge over 2 for the cci. For my shooting that puts the hornady square in just fine. And the others close to not useful. Sorting the hornady could get groups down to the cloverleaf level but that's beyond my hunting needs.

For my magnum research the hornady was about the same, even sorting couldn't get true cloverleaf but this is a straight up hunting rig. All my rounds on an inch dot and I'm happy as a clam. This barrel put all the cci on a 2 inch dot but certainly not on the one.

Truthfully didn't have really high hopes for the vnt, between my 3 and my shooting buddies 3 17hmr barrels only an early marlin 17 microgrove barrel shoot a the vnt bullet well. Not sure why but the vnt bullet has underwhelmed me a lot. With that said, it may be a screamer in some, one box is always worth a try. Shooting buddy hated a 17, looked like he was patterning a shotgun out of his, I shyed away from it for a long time. Finally stuffed some in Volq and it screams and shoots really well.

Lot to lot variation, recipe to recipe variation will exist regardless of who maks it.

 

Found this in the forum:

john300exc
Try This:
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...-vnt-50-rounds
I just ordered quantity of 20 boxes and they arrived in packages-bricks of 10 each. They shot very well in my Volquartsen Summit, around 1/2" or less. But my CZ452 17 HM2 shot them like a shotgun, literally 8" groups at 50 yds. The CZ was shooting Hornady and Eley in less than 1/2" groups so I have no idea what was going on with the CCI. When I get time, I plan to deep clean the CZ barrel, check scope mounts, tighten action and retry

Not great but better then mine lol

 

Seems the Volquartens shoot them OK.
Not real keen on spending $1500 AUD to find out though...

 

Here's a gent shooting one of those using VNT ammo.
Looks pretty good.
No better than my lilja barrel on 455 with cci 17 vmax.

 

Interesting, Speer doesn't make 17 caliber bullets.
Smallest offered is the .204.
Berger, Nosler, Sierra and Hornady all make 17's.
But not Speer. I think the Speer identification of the yellow tipped cartridge
is a marketing strategy to improve sales. Give it a different name and color
to increase market share.

Recent article...

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2019/7/8/an-ode-to-the-17-mach-2/

 

How do you know Speer doesn't make 17 cal bullets?
Just because they don't offer to the public, the bullets doesn't mean they don't.
Seems it would be fraud or something to make such a claim if not true.
Think about it.
I wouldn't want my name on something not knowing if the item is/was a bust or not.
Now, this may be the reason you don't see this bullet advertised by speer.
Seems bullet has a thinner jacket.
Just maybe really the only rifles it can be used with is the 17 cal rimfires (hmr and hm2). Any faster rifles would hurt the jacket. And rimfires for the most part are not reloaded by the general public.

I am speculating. Makes sense though when you think about it.

 

My thought is based on cost, SQ1.
Return on investment.
Why spend money on tooling for such a limited run of product.
Hornady already is contracted to supply projectiles to CCI/Speer,
easy enough to change the tip colors, the rest is new labeling.
If Speer had the tooling in house, they'd offer bullets for the reloading market.
That's just good business. But then it's easy enough to find out.
Contact CCI and Hornady directly and ask. My guess is like the last time I asked
I was told all the bullets were made by Hornady. That was three years ago.
Maybe something has changed. That yellow tipped bullet is used in the 17 hmr also.
I didn't see anything different other than tip color.

 

I did a similar test trying out VNT ammo. I didn't get such a wide spread but it was no where close to the groups I get with V-max tipped ammo. (CCI & Hornady)

 

Some confusion exists over which company produces the .17 cal VNT bullet. Various sources have reported either Speer OR Sierra. One online magazine even reported that BOTH companies produce the same bullet (not likely)

It is most likely that the VNT bullet is NOT produced by Hornady, but rather by either Sierra or Speer.

In a previous thread, I reported that sorting these rounds by bullet seating depth will improve accuracy by eliminating gross fliers. Matching the optimum bullet seating depth with your particular rifle/chamber combination will improve accuracy regardless of brand. I have found that lot-to-lot variations have more impact on accuracy than brand label. Generally, the VNT shot as well as the better lots of Hornady and CCI V-Max from my rifle.
"This is a re-post from my previous thread but may add to the OP's question.
This past summer I did some extensive testing of .17HM2 brands/lots with my Kimber K17 ProVarmint 20 inch barrel, at 50, 100, and 200 yards.I tested 2 lots of Eley, 4 lots of Hornady, and 5 lots of CCI including CCI-VNT. The results of group size measurements showed that the lot/batch number had more effect on group size than brand. Usually, a vertical flier would open up the group size, some worse than others. After eliminating the usual causes for vertical fliers, I went back to the sorting techniques published by Steve Boelter of ANA, and sorted the lots by bullet seating depth. Bullet seating depth varied by as much as 0.016" from lot-to-lot and even within the same lot. This is considerable especially with respect to the pressure curve variations in such a small cartridge. I modified my rimfire gauge to measure the ogive length from the base of the rim, and sorted 11 lots of Eley, Hornady, and CCI into consistent groups for bullet seating depth. Group sizes at 50 yards ranged from 0.377" to 1.301" depending on bullet seating depth. At 100 yards group sizes ranged from 1.158" to 3.332" again depending on bullet seating depth. At 200 yards the groups fell apart and ranged from 5.25" to 8.55" with most of the rounds key-holed in the target. Hornady brands are advertised at 2100fps, and a few of the Hornady rounds hit higher on the target and did not key-hole, but this was inconsistent among different lots and even within the same box.
CCI rounds rated at 2010fps all hit lower on the target and all key-holed, probably the result of going sub-sonic at around 180 yards. I concluded that the .17HM2 is only useful out to about 150 yards in my rifle. Variations in powder charge, primer mix and bullet seating depth all result in muzzle velocity variations that affect accuracy. For game hunting purposes, I keep my shots under 100 yards.
It would be nice if CCI would step up to improve quality control."

 

Some confusion exists over which company produces the .17 cal VNT bullet. Various sources have reported either Speer OR Sierra. One online magazine even reported that BOTH companies produce the same bullet (not likely).

http://www.varminter.com/new-cci-17-mach-2-vnt-rimfire-ammunition-announced-for-2019/

The above online ad only proves that most writers do not read, spell or comprehend information very well today.

It is most likely that the VNT bullet is NOT produced by Hornady, but rather by either Sierra or Speer.

It's a simple mistake on the lead up line to a press release (which you call an "online ad". A press release is the information released by the company producing the product and oftentimes is the only information available at the time of publishing.

It's very rare that we make a mistake, but they do happen. Instead of being snarky, why not bring it to my attention so it can be corrected? :bthumb:

 

Nice report joet333, thanks for the informative report and all the effort.

 

Importer is giving me my money back.
No measuring, weighing or sorting will fix my accuracy.

I will however try sorting some of the newer Hornady ammo I have as its not as good as my older stuff.

 

Still fighting the flu bug, so plenty of time to read up on the 17hm2.

Speer® VNT™ bullet design; Very thin jacket combined with precision-built polymer tip

Note, the design and name are trademarked, but can be made by any company with the proper tooling and permission from CCI/Speer.
Given the specifications and materials needed it was probably put out for bids and a contract cut.
No need for it to be made in house. Any bullet manufacturer's with 17 caliber tooling can produce them.

Waiting on a reply from CCI as to who actually is making the bullets.


I know, I ruin perfectly good discussions by communicating directly with the companies involved.
I've done it before, I'll do it again, I just don't like being ignorant.

 

Still fighting the flu bug, so plenty of time to read up on the 17hm2.

Speer® VNT™ bullet design; Very thin jacket combined with precision-built polymer tip

Note, the design and name are trademarked, but can be made by any company with the proper tooling and permission from CCI/Speer.
Given the specifications and materials needed it was probably put out for bids and a contract cut.
No need for it to be made in house. Any bullet manufacturer's with 17 caliber tooling can produce them.

Waiting on a reply from CCI as to who actually is making the bullets.

I know, I ruin perfectly good discussions by communicating directly with the companies involved.
I've done it before, I'll do it again, I just don't like being ignorant.

You haven't ruined anything here. (Discussion wise).
It's a new bullet unlike vmcx
So it may or may not yield as good a accuracy as vmax.
So far most reports seem VNT not adding anything to accuracy department.
Lead free I think.
Hard to simulate lead with lead free whatevers.

I'll stick with vmax for now.
Let the Californians shoot the VNT.

 

From today's reading, the 15.5 grain NTX is the lead free bullet.
All the 17 grainers are copper over lead with a polymer tip.

 

Received an email from CCI


RE: CCI Ammo - Ask the Expert Form


The new VNT bullet in both .22 and .17 cal are made in house here in Lewiston, Idaho.

Thanks,

Cody B./Technical Service Rep.
CCI/Speer/Alliant
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
(866)286-7436


Well, that was a surprise.
Not any of the outside suppliers as claimed by so many on line publications.
Now I'm less ignorant.

Now I have to find out what a 22 VNT is....

...well that's interesting.
I'm going to have to reinstall the Feddersen 22wmr barrel in my CZ 455.
CCI has a 22wmr VNT. Something else to try at 200 yards.
I am so easily entertained.

 

I bought 2 boxes of the Mach2 VNT. It shot horribly through my AnschutzZ 1502...a shotgun pattern. Contacted CCI CS and they wanted it returned, but I shot all of the first box and gave the other box away. Sent the lot number on the box and explained why I couldn't return ammo I no longer had. So they blew me off and I've never heard from them again. Very disappointing.

 

shoot fine out of my savage 93, only problem is one occasionly granades bofore it hits the target.

 

I got the same results as skip AL

 

I've shot the VNT loading through two of my rifles (Beyer barrel on a 10/22 action, and the factory American Rimfire) with good accuracy.