US customers do not have priority on accuracy as a whole. The main priority in America is cheap, available, and goes bang for the most part.

 

Yet every box of the upper tier ammo options are gone in hours once availability is known. I find that interesting.

I am not disputing your point, I can't help but wonder if U.S. manufacturers lack the expertise, ability, desire, don't care for reasons you mentioned, or lastly an accounting decision.

Then I think about why my old Ruger Mark II pistols seem to shoot everything well. Not just one of them, but all of them. CCI SV, Blazer Brass, even old Remington GB & Browning ammo. Federal Auto Match gave me terrific groups. Maybe it is the firearm?

My CZ455 seems to do the same as my Rugers. It doesn't care what it gets fed. Do the "better" ammo brands shoot better groups? Absolutely. The competitors need those improved results and consistency. I do not. I enjoy having the opportunity to compare the upper tier ammo with "lesser" brands, but as a rule the results from the higher cost ammo does not offset the cost difference and results from cheaper brands. Again, for my purposes. An example would be a group shot using Eley Tenex out of the 455 of 6 rounds shot a really tight .193" group tossing aside the one I know I pulled. Blazer Brass shot a .258" group if memory serves me correctly. I'll take the Blazer Brass all day long at that cost difference. But again, I don't compete and that difference is a loss for the competitors.

Lastly, the competitive shooting market seems to be growing and I think it is time for some U.S. manufacturer to step up and produce an equal or better offering than anyone else's.

 

We at RFC ae a very small % of 22 shooters

Even our group maybe only 30-50% of us use Mid to high level ammo on a regular basis

Just not enough business to try and serve, while there is already ammo out there.
And when they've tried, we've shot them down as soon as we've gotten a bad batch

 

I normally don't jump in on threads like this, mainly because another one just like it will come along in a short while.

The answer is given in the three doors below. Choose whichever you think it is. I will give you a hint further down the line. There is only one correct door!

1, The US ammo makers simply do not like their customers and do not want them to have anything nice.

2, They are against making too much profit.

3, They have done the math!

Lapua midas+, costs four times as much per box as CCI standards. How many boxes of CCI standard do we think CCI can make by the time Lapua makes one box of Midas? All the while CCI doesn't have to worry about tarnishing their reputation and losing sleep if their latest creations are now shooting groups averaging .1 larger than they normally turn out.

 

I normally don't jump in on threads like this, mainly because another one just like it will come along in a short while.

The answer is given in the three doors below. Choose whichever you think it is. I will give you a hint further down the line. There is only one correct door!

1, The US ammo makers simply do not like their customers and do not want them to have anything nice.

2, They are against making too much profit.

2, They have done the math!

Lapua midas+, costs four times as much per box as CCI standards. How many boxes of CCI standard do we think CCI can make by the time Lapua makes one box of Midas? All the while CCI doesn't have to worry about tarnishing their reputation and losing sleep if their latest creations are now shooting groups averaging .1 larger than they normally turn out.

22 ammo is a global market. I know a few international shooters and not a one says " gee I wish I could get more CCI SV or Dynapoints or ...." Compaired to the ammo available outside of the US what we make here is, for the most part unimpressive.

 

I agree with others in that the demand simply isn't there for the manufacturers to turn a decent ROI. Out of the "gazillions" of boxes of 22LR consumed worldwide, a very small fraction are high end match grade ammo. For any chance of the math to work for an American manufacturer they would need to have it globally accepted and proven, which takes time, money, and partnerships to unseat the already firmly established top-end brands.
We'll likely not learn the answer to this, but I wonder if the manufacturers margins are any higher on top end ammo than for regular plinking rounds??

 

If what is commonly believed, that all of the match manufacturers ammo comes off the same line, then the cheaper ammo makes less profit. If Lapua (or Eley, or SK, etc.) is running a line, they are taking the batches of ammo that is most consistent and packaging it as X-Act, then the next becomes Midas +, then Center-X. If it costs them 5 cents to make all of the rounds, they are obviously making the highest profit off the expensive ammo.

If that is truly what the European companies are doing, why can't a US company do the same?

Maybe I have the manufacturing process all wrong but, I thought thats what the major European companies were doing.

 

If it takes a slower more drawn out process to produce upper tier ammo, I don’t know that it does, then maybe the way WE scream CONSPIRACY CONSPIRACY every ammo shortage has given them cold feet. So they produce as much as they can as fast as they can. That and our incessant trolling when their attempts don’t set our own personal scores on fire. Don’t blame them a bit. I’m not a big fan however of taking virtually the same bullet and rebranding it in 3 or 4 different boxes. I find it rather insulting.

 

My opinion🤷‍♂️,

Although we at RFC commonly throw around product names of European Target and Match grade rimfire ammo and as large as we want to think our precision sports are, they are really a niche market in the big scheme of things.

Most people outside of precision rimfire have little need for rimfire ammo costing several times more. I understand that the US has marketed some match level ammo in the past, although most of it was joint venture stuff with European manufacturers. Some was good stuff, some was what we would consider mid-grade. It just depended on end goal of the company marketing it.

I think it is great that there is so much attention to the .22 LR now. But if the desire for $.20 to $.40 per round .22 was a large as we precieve, it would be on the shelves of your local gun stores or major retailers like Bass Pro, Cabelas , Wal-mart and Academy.

As it is, I think 90% of it comes from large ammo dedicated suppliers or smaller businesses that specialize in competitive smallbore products.

As with lots of other things in life, how long will the demand continue? Trends seem to crest and fall, trying to out guess the demand of a product can be very challenging and expensive.

 

The R&D to develop a great product is overwhelming. Federal did it when they developed gold medal winning 22LR. Even after swallowing all that cost, there wasn't enough demand to turn the machinery to produce the product. As others have stated, RFC does not represent the majority of 22LR purchasers. Just my thoughts.
gkn

 

This is similar to what I’ve heard regarding production of 22LR as well as other items such as barrel making.
The manufacturer needa to produce a considerable amount of product before they recuperate the cost, and until then it’s actually a loss. It is more feasible for a large company to do it where they already have a large quantity of other products to carry them through until the investment starts to pay off. It is a hard expense to carry for a smaller outfit, and for the large ones if they can keep making a big profit off of their existing machinery it is not as attractive to invest in stuff that isn’t pay8ng off as much or as quickly.

Id love to see it happen though. Id prefer to keep my dollars in North America where it bounces back and forth between the borders rather than across the pond. And I’d love to see more options on the shelf as rimfire are finicky creatures which can’t even be precisely handloaded like a centerfire can.

 

The bottom line on why there's no good .22LR match ammo made in the USA is the bottom line: profits.

It's very expensive to set up .22LR match ammo production. New machinery is required. It's not simply a matter of tweaking existing machinery. It also requires a good measure of experience and technical know how in the art and engineering of manufacturing high end .22LR ammo.

There's more money to be reliably made in producing inexpensive varieties of .22LR ammo. Producing .22LR match ammo that can compete with Lapua, Eley, and RWS is much more costly with no immediate returns.

 

I have to agree with you on this one. It will take someone like Elon Musk who's capable and says I want to produce the best and be the best, then do it, regardless if it cost more in the end.

 

One of the most frequently heard omplaints where? I've never heard it much at all. I don't think it's a big deal. Mostly wanted for 22LR ammo is cheap and reliable.

 

That's true but it's not what I'm talking about.
My post was about top-tier ammo which is not cheap in my world.

 

I dare say most of us are happy with our European favorites, other than the fact that we can't get them as easily as we want.

How many of us would be willing to be patient with a new US offering if it didn't shine right out of the gate. I'm guessing that the number of tests barrels any manufacturer has is minuscule compared to the market they're trying to sell to.

Positive feedback is not as frequently given as negative feedback. If we like a product we smile and are happy but not much is said. However, if it fails us, sometimes even in the slightest way, then we will let our thoughts be known.

How many here would be willing to give a new US offering a real try?

 

Supply and Demand has always driven business to manufacture or not manufacture anything.
If the demand was there and profitable an ammunition manufacturer would make it.
I’d like to see a U.S. manufacturer make high grade 22 ammo.

 

This gets kicked around every few months, and I've asked it myself.
Nowadays, I'm going with "They've done the math."
I'm going to guess that the size of the projected profit there, in the USA companies' accounting, do not justify the investment. And let's not forgot, this was tried and abandoned by Federal.
BTW, how many USA makers of .22lr are left? By that, I mean forget individual labels, just count ownerships. There is Winchester/Olin and the Czech Group (former Vista) and who else? Long story short: Only two boards of directors had to shake their heads, and the question is moot.

 

@JohnnyJohnsoninWI could probably add some real insight to this conversation. He was an engineer for Federal who worked on high grade ammo for the Olympics.

 

That would be fantastic. I’d love to hear his understanding of this.

 

It all comes down to $$$$$.Federal made some really great high end ammo at one time but the market just isn't there when competing against Lapua, Eley, RWS and SK.

 

Do you know how long ago that was? What ammo was the Federal ammo comparable to?

As you say, manufacturers are all about profit, so if the market is not there, it's not going to happen.

 

My 22 ammo is a mixed bag. Hunting, plinking, casual target shooting.

For my squirrel rifles, I like to use Eley and SK, sometimes RWS. Normally a hundred or so rounds will be enough for me for the season. I like to be as accurate as I can when hunting, and don’t mind the higher cost of better than average ammo.

For my handguns, and rifles I plink with, I use CCI and Norma mostly. I have already shot well over 2000 rounds this year, 500 of that was this morning.

So, if they base their decision on my usage, premium target ammo would be a big loser for them. I have to assume in the huge world of 22lr shooters, premium ammo users are a very low percentage of buyers, and most that are shooting 22lr are not chasing extreme accuracy.

 

Great post. I think it falls in line with the majority of the hunter, plinker and the average weekend target shooters. I like that number you have there of 2000 rounds per year. But that is really not that many rounds. My number is most likely not that high. I hunt with rimfire, site-ins I shoot paper with these revolvers and long arms and I like to break out a Ruger Mark and a Browning Buckmark once in a while and play during a course of a year. I would say I’m at about 1000/ 10 boxes. That’s not much.
Your number is not low by any means. I’m a clay target shooter (sidelined temporarily due to a shoulder injury, surgery upcoming) I’m shooting in the neighborhood of 4000 targets a year, reload my own shotshells and that is less than 100 rounds per Week. Sound like a lot but it’s not.
I would think competition rimfire shooter shoots well above 5200 rounds per year.
I agree with original poster that there is no reason why a top quality rimfire competition shell can’t be produced in this country. There are enough US shooters that fit into that category. These shooters are not guys running to Wally World picking up a 100 pack and hitting the range. They buy in bulk. Much like Clay guys who don’t reload, they buy flats of shotshells. Skid loads. There are competition grade shotshells of quality components and there are Wally World specials that are cheaper promotional shells. Same as rimfire.
Rimfire shells prices have gotten out of hand. Multiple reasons I’m sure. The shortage availability was an industry scam and today these days there is a lot of marketing hype about the products available to us that are not a true competition shell. Sorry for the rant.

 

CCI is about 2 hours south of me in Lewiston ID. I was there last week and drove right by the facility. Thought about dropping into the visitors center and lobbying for high quality ammo so I don't have to buy R50 for the Anschutz or Center X for the CZ. Didn't do it. Next time I will.

They do produce Green Tag. I've never chronoed it but I have tested it. It did not perform well in my 22's.

 

Funny - Green Tag performed poorly in mine as well.
But I bet CCI probably produces the highest quality domestic ammo, and would likely have the greatest rimfire production production resources to be able to viably product match quality domestic 22LR rounds.

 

Lapua is making a profit . But, that profit pales in comparison to what profit can be made when one uses their time, labor and materials to turn out massive amounts of ammo in the same time period that is required to make Lapua ammo. The daily profit is miles apart.

American companies have it right. They are catering to the needs of the overwhelming majority. If I bought CCI tomorrow and someone brought up the fact that perhaps we should slow things down and make a high dollar product similar to Lapua. I would see that person doesn't have the well being of the company in mind and would suggest to him that he should seek employment at Lapua! I would hold the door open for him!

There is a basic concept of " making it up in volume!"

 

Most would like to see an American company make top ammo and these folks would buy it in the same quantities that they currently buy top European ammo, at best. For most, that would be none and a large amount would not buy enough to do the company making it any good.

There is nothing wrong with wanting an American company to make anything. I would think that if 1,000 shooters were asked if they wanted to see an American company make a good walnut and blued steel rimfire in the $2000 range at least 900 of them would say yes! Out of those 900, twenty of them would actually buy one. Same as the ammo , we would just like to see it, mostly! Nothing wrong with that but the gun and ammo manufacturers have got us figured out!

 

Here is the issue. There are 209,000 people on this forum. How many do you think are interested in buying $15,00 a box ammo when the majority are interested in minute of squirrel. Yes there are a of of hard core benchrest shooters, but not many are here and they are perfectly satisfied to test Eley or Lapua or go to one of the test centers and pay $15.00 a box. US Wages being what they are, compared to England or Germany or Sweden for comparable US ammo it is most likely going to be most likely more.

"Then explain how the European Ammo cost 5X more than the US produced ammo"
Labor costs, machinery cost, Quality control cost more. The cost of priming alone is more than the US stuff. Shipping and distributing it isn't that cheap. And why do you want ammo like Eley, or Lapua. Because it is 5 time better? Why did Federal stop making Gold Medal. Because there wasn't enough of a market in the US to keeping it going. Look at the big three. They sell in England, Europe and the US. Now why will Europe buy US "match ammo" when they can buy Lapua or Eley "locally".

 

I’ve owned a machine shop for the past 22 years. One of the best paying repeat jobs I ever had netted over $250 per hour. The only problem was that the job required a dedicated machine and it averaged less than two hours per month. I hoped the volume would increase but it never did, so I sold that machine for over five years worth of gross sales that it ran.
Imagine how easy the decision to sell that machine would be if the profits were minimal?
My wife has been known to ask whether I’m running a business or a charity. The principles at every successful business of every size never have to ask themselves that question.

Factories profit by becoming very efficient at what they do. I worked at Federal Cartridge from 1991-2000. Back then, they were cranking out over 4 million rounds of 22LR every day. Years later, I hear it was over 7.

I can’t cite specifics but I recall being told that some of Federal’s loads like 22Shorts were discontinued because it would take days to change the line over and days to change it back; all to run a years supply of 22Shorts in one day. Where do you assign the cost from those days of production downtime?

In the 1992 Olympics, Launi Meili won a gold medal and Bob Foth won silver with our ammo. Side note: I got to hold Launi’s medal. It was surprisingly heavy. I remember thinking that it might be the only time in my life that I ever hold a gold medal. It has been 33 years and it hasn’t happened again.

Federal set up a small work cell that was separate from their regular production and dedicated to producing UM1 ammunition. I had moved on to other projects, mostly in centerfire, so I don’t remember how long they produced match grade ammo before the plug was pulled.

I would love to tour Eley and Lapua to get a glimpse of how they manufacture their match grade ammo. My wild guess is that they approach the entire manufacturing process from a boutique perspective versus a corporate perspective. I do know that they must strive for absolute consistency, every day and in every aspect and variable of their manufacturing process. It isn’t easy.

 

I would love to tour Eley and Lapua to get a glimpse of how they manufacture their match grade ammo. My wild guess is that they approach the entire manufacturing process from a boutique perspective versus a corporate perspective. I do know that they must strive for absolute consistency, every day and in every aspect and variable of their manufacturing process. It isn’t easy.

The European's must have efficiency and the secret sauce. Why can't the Americans do the same?

 

Johnny, Thanks for your input. 7 million a day gives a lot of perspective to "making it up in volume!"

 

Squirrel, The European manufacturers must strive for absolute consistency everyday in every aspect as Johnny has said. If they don't, then they are going to make less precise ammo and now they go out of their realm and into the world of the behemoth CCI. They will die there shortly! CCI is not concerned, and comes to work and leaves work everyday , whistling! They find more money in their couch cushions than the European makers see on a weekly basis. I don't think it much of a mystery as why they don't want to change. Better ammo actually means less money! It is a business! They allow others to dominate the less profitable market, sounds like a winning business formula!

As far as the sauce it is not a secret. CCI can afford far more of it than Lapua, they don't want it! It is a step backward in profit!

 

I haven't seen any for years, but Federal used to make well-regarded match ammunition. It never shot very well in my rifles. Maybe that's why we don't see it any more?

 

I haven't seen any for years, but Frderal used to make well-regarded match ammunition. It never shot very well in my rifles. Maybe that's why we don't see it any more?

Used to be American made target ammo? You mean this

I think there was a top tier dimpled rimfire. This is what I could obtain locally and it make my little Sport Striker a winner. Never really shot anything else worth a flip. When it became no longer available, I tried a bunch but never really worked. Switched to an Anschutz, which was ok but being a custom centergrip, it needed more barrel.

 

Lerrad. I get that it basically comes down to...."it's all about the dollar!"

But what I don't get is how over here in America it's not profitable. But the Europeans has proven that it is. As a former Import Coordinator I'm very knowledgeable on importing foreign goods. Eley, and Lapua, RWS, are the big three in my eyes. Their hunting ammo is considered their lowest grade of ammo right. Compare the big three's hunting ammo to the very best American made hunting ammo. There's no comparison, CCI, Winchester, Federal suck compared to the big three.

The Big Three are producing and getting their ammo over to the American people and is "making money hand over fist!"

Our Big Three can also do this, but chooses not to.

This is disturbing 😳

 

I know that it used to not be profitable. BUT with the growth of things like long range precision rifle competitions eating up large amounts of ammo, demand has skyrocketed. The Eley, RWS, Lapua and SK is getting snatched up as fast as it gets over here. The rimfire shooting world has changed a lot over the last 25 years. The plinking, hunting and informal target shooting is still carrying on as always but there IS a lot more. The ammo companies should do some research if they haven't to see if might be profitable. Who wouldn't like to see something like CCI SuperMatch and Precision Hunter? Made in USA use to mean something.

 

I know Donald Trump Jr. has a Rim-X made by Desert Precision Gunworks, Maybe we should get him to tell his dad to make this happen for us! Seem like he is able to accomplish everything else he wants to to make USA regain superiority! LOL