I defiantly had a problem with the lead fouling with my Lite. I can't say 100% what ammo caused it the first time but Ruger did recomend I use a copper washed bullet. Yesterday I shot 240 golden bullets through it, some fast and some slow, plus I had to reload my mags each time, and not a bit of leading. Although, I do now have lots of gold specks stuck all over my grips and they don't just blow off. After looking at the cut away view posted in another thread, I do think your onto something since it seems to lead up right where it seems to get thick towards the end of the barrel. I'm going to go shoot a couple hundred of the Winchester 555 bulk, they are copper coated also and see how that goes. I also see what looks like a tool mark line, it looks like a slight scratch and runs exactly with one of the rifiling lands about a 64th of an inch away. I'm not sure that has anything to do with it or not. I also bought some Remington match grade ammo that I'm going to take with my gun vise and some how use to hold and stedy my Lite to check accuracy, it seems to shoot all over the place but that is with bulk ammo and my unsteady hand.

 

When I viewed the cutaway, it looked as if the barrel was atleast as thick as the standard mk3 barrel, if not thicker, along the whole barrel. It surprised me how thick the barrel was.

 

NC Look at the steel liner in the barrel and look at the size viewing from the muzzle.

 

This is the picture I have seen. Seems like the steel "liner" takes up all of the space inside the alum. housing.

 

That is not a Lite.

 

The picture I've seen is in the first post of this thread.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469725

 

JStacy, if you're worried about heat being the cause of the leading then have no fear. The aluminium surround will be a far better heat sink than the all steel barrels. Steel is actually a really bad heat conductor compared to aluminium, copper and a few other metals. So shooting slow or fast it's pretty much an iron clad cinch that the steel liner will not get as hot on the bore surface as an all steel bull barrel shot the same amount.

From the outside what you might feel is some added warmth compared to a steel barrel. Again that's the aluminium conducting the heat from the liner out to the outer surface all the faster. So it may appear that the gun gets warmer than the all steel versions but it's actually not the case in the bore where it counts.

Your suggestion does bring up another possible item. If the liner material is made from a different alloy of steel compared to the all steel tapered and bull standard barrels that particular steel may be more prone to picking up and holding the galled lead despite wax lubricants or copper washing. Frictional coefficients between different alloys of steel to other metals can vary by quite a bit. One would like to think that Ruger picked an alloy which would resist galling and picking up the lead but perhaps that flukey bad batch of CCI Blazer that seems to be out there is something that they simply did not anticipate.

 

meh.... i have fired the same blazer lot through a 22/45 target and a lite. The lite leads up. The target does not.
In my case the lite is just as accurate but i do not know for how long. Don't think it has anything to do with heat build up. The barrel is rough.

 

This is.

 

thanks Doug . The void around part of the barrel will act as an insulator and not transfer the heat because it does not contact the aluminum. BC I agree aluminum is a better heat sink but it is separated from the barrel by inert air space as Doug showed in the cut out. That is the reason I felt that the 22/45 Lite , which seems to have a unique leading problem, had to be related to some unique set of conditions in it's construction. I have also noted on my gun and other observed on their guns that the rifling seems to be extremely shallow , more so than observed on other Ruger barrels. I am sure SGW or JBar will chime in on this with their expertise. thanks to all just some thought to mull over !
Sappy my barrel is the opposite . It looks like a mirror and very fain rifling .I will shoot it Thursday and compare it to my 4.5" threaded 22/45 and my 4.5" Talo gun .Shoot groups with the common plinking ammo I use . I do not think a 4.5" open sighted 22/45 is a "target gun" but I will shoot one sights from a rest and see how they compare -- and watch for lead !! Jim

 

wow.... just... wow.... Why would they do it like that I wonder?

I was thinking that the first pictures were the LITE model and just poor lighting or file quality that didn't show any constrast difference between the liner and the alloy jacket. Only after seeing this most recent one did I go back and realize that the first pics were of the all steel guns. (slaps forehead with palm)

Of course in lite (oooo that's a bad pun ) of this new picture showing the big air gap around the rather thin barrel I would most certainly agree that the unsupported portion of the liner at the very least is going to see a big rise in temperature during the sort of use that is normal for any .22 pistol.

From there it comes down to is it the heat on its own or the heat along with one of those other changes you mentioned that they made.

 

I cant believe that ruger did the lite like that. I dont have one, but have been considering picking one up. My only thought is , has anyone tried to fill the gap with coolant yet? It kind of looks like you could through the front sight screw hole, and just have a maxim lite.
Just curious. Thanks.

Oh, and just an extra thought, the best insulator is air. All of our modern Thermoses use the same principal. I can see how the thin barrel would get hotter, and not dissipate heat.

 

Oh, and just an extra thought, the best insulator is air. All of our modern Thermoses use the same principal. I can see how the thin barrel would get hotter, and not dissipate heat.

Actually, lack of air is an insulator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_flask

 

I have a new lite siting in the gun room with a Sam's bushing ,Volquartsen hammer and sear and a MK-II trigger ( why: because they have an over travel stop already the lite trigger does not) . The gun will be shot on Thursday and compared to my 22/45Talo and my 22/45 threaded barrel steel gun. I will try various bulk ammo I know to shoot well out of my other 22/45's and see how they shake out for accuracy at 25 Yards. --shooting from sand bags.
i just posted the question about the theoretical cause of the Lite leading many have mentioned and the major difference is the barrel set up.
I have known groups of guns , bulls eye match in Waco Texas in July at 17 degrees, and all of the guns had leading and key holing bullet problems by the end of the match. Heat and friction , which causes heat also, of the lead bullet that was the basis of my thoughts on the thin barrel and heat build up.
Does the Lite barrel warp as it is heated ? Probably very little because it is tensioned but just dynamics to consider on a radical , for Ruger, new concept in gun manufacture. Thanks for you thoughts , interesting discussion !! Jim.

 

The topic of this thread is not a new one at all. Back in "the day" (the knowledge of which makes me out to be old) Dan Wesson arms were very highly regarded in silhouette shooting because of their massive frame and their inherent accuracy which was attributed to their tensioned barrel. For those who don't know, the Dan Wesson was a M27-ish revolver which featured tensioned barrel system with a separate shroud. Unlike the Lite, the barrels and shrouds were interchangeable by removing the tensioning nut. You could purchase one individually, but I believe most sold were sold as "pistol packs" with several sizes of barrels/shrouds in a fitted case. It was a fantastic concept, but in practice they had two flaws which probably heavily contributed to their demise. If anyone owns one, feel free to correct me, but their famed accuracy was inconsistent, and they suffered from leading issues. The accuracy issued were probably entirely attributed to barrel tension, and I'm sure this is the reason Ruger tells you to never remove the tension nut. The leading can surely be attributed to the air space between the barrel and shroud, the same air space present in the lite. Jim, I've been meaning to chime in earlier, but there is history to back up your theory....and it's history I'm sure you are aware of.

 

What's going on with the barrel with different expansion rates between steel and aluminum?....O.L.

 

I'll be paying attention to your results Jim, I'm heading to a gun show on Sat with intent on picking up a Lite and this thread has me a little concerned. I plan on shooting in a target league and will put maybe 5000 rounds through it every 6 months with practicing and all.

Nice job everyone :bthumb:

 

Sweetmk, an interesting post.

You raise a lot of interesting factors that all are part of the accuracy issue. I never would have considered the wax coating as used on many otherwise "clean lead" rounds as needing to be shot through a somewhat warm bore to perform well. But it makes sense as long as the shooter isn't a hunter depending on that all important "cold bore" first shot to fill the stew pot.

Some might take exception to your thoughts on air vs vacuum. But in the short term such as seen between shots on a rimfire handgun you are 100% right that the difference is negligable.

As far as heat goes are we talking about the overall temperature of the universe, rimfire guns or that special oil you can get from the local "Love Shoppes" ?

 

Snow dog I'll try to get the stuff up Thursday night. i am interested also . I guess we could drill holes into the shroud above and below the barrel to have a cooling effect by convection. Just some thoughts guy . I am a scientist by training and a retired director and like to look at processes. I started this thread as an open invitation for sharing thoughts why the Lite abounds with tales of leading.
With the thin barrel walls I sure would not "drive a cleaning rod" through the Lite's barrel for fear I would create a bulge in it. I will use cleaning solution to break down the fouling , with the barrel pointed down so I do not break down the epoxy holding the tensioning nut on the barrel, and pull a patch worm typr cleaner through it . I know I am over cautious but always , at work , had to think --"what if"!
Thanks again love seeing all of this collective thinking !! Pareto analysis at work !!

 

I am waiting to see if one of my friends can post the pictures from this morning shooting session with the 3 22/45's I own. On the Lite -- yep mine leaded with CCI Blazers and Federal Auto match. It did not lead heavily but I am still cleaning the stuff out of the bore with shooters choice. The patches show no sign of copper fouling but there is visible lead in the bore ---- guess where ? In the 2.5" or so of unsupported , insulated portion of the bore. Next range trip it will get shot with copper or brass clad bullets only and see what it does. So far the theory seems to be true.

 

How many rounds of each were fired?

How did it compare to the other 22/45's for accuracy

Has anybody considered bore polish?

http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleani...icals/solvents-degreasers/bore-cleaning-paste/j-b-reg-bore-bright-prod1161.aspx

 

"How many rounds of each were fired?" About 150 through each the lite. the last 50 was a combination of Blazers and Federal Auto match to see if it would lead.

"How did it compare to the other 22/45's for accuracy" Both of the steel receiver 22/45's shot better groups with 4 of 5 types of ammo tested. The Lite shot WW Dynapoint Target better and grouped them decent. Of the three 22/45's tested only the Lite was leaded .
One 22/45 had a RDS and it had a significant advantage in grouping ability.

Has anybody considered bore polish?" The lands and grooves in a 22 are so shallow they are easily damaged with wire brush cleaners or abrasive paste,like J&B ,So I do not use that anymore. I scrubbed a MK-III with bore polish and doubled the group size it normally shot and it never regained the accuracy it had before scrubbing it.
BTW even lead away cloth has abrasive in it- beware.

 

A search will turn up a lot of .22 lead fouling examples and often the name blazer. It happens and Ruger admits as much and it isn't only their brand that has experienced the problem. It appears to usually be related to the ammo and no one really knows if it is due to the lube, lead or other. The simple solution is to use ammo that has worked well for others. Copper washed is recommended but many 22/45 users myself included use nothing more fancy than Federal bulk pack. I first cleaned my Lite after a box of 325 and the bore showed no sign of residue.

The use of brass brushes has been argued for a long time but all I could find on the subject were opinions. If anyone has some scientific test results please post. I assume that any cleaning process that removes all lead and powder residue would be ok but how well that can be determined by looking down the barrel with just your eye is open to question. I'll keep using brushes until hard evidence is available that something else works as well or better. It just makes sense that allowing any lead accumulation would just increase the chance of a faster build up.

 

Gary, Did you read any of the posts (all of them and not just the previous post) from JStacy? He's posted real observed data on the use of bore paste and brushes with his own MK pistol, not an opinion since he posted before and after data on how the brushes effected his pistol. I guess you can call that an OPINION but I'd defer to calling it actual observed fact. Now, my opinions are based on my experience over 40 years of rimfire use... I'll stick to the less agressive approach with respect to RIMFIRE rifling and keep the brushes for my centerfire deeper rifled barrels. Keep us posted on any accuracy falloff or not with your system.:bthumb:

 

Gary I hear you opinion . I know what I observed and if some one wants to scrub their 22 bore however they want that is entirely up to them. I do know that a Ruger MK-III slab side,a CZ452 Varmint and a Remington 541-S groups were changed negatively after a "good brushing" and a cleaning with J&B bore paste.
I am aware of GMP and scientific analysis and have 45 years experience as a scientist and like number of experience as a competition shooter.
I will not risk potentially damaging the bore in one of my guns in the future by overly aggressive cleaning methods. If other people wish to that it is up to them.
All I was doing was to report the results of a documented evaluation of past and current observations on shooting 22 rim fires.
However I did not stay at holiday inn . I stayed at the University of Texas

 

Which do you think ruined the accuracy of the guns? The cleaning brush, J&B bore paste or a combination of the two?
The bore paste has a good rep and a one time use applied with a patch or bore bullet shouldn't have that kind of affect. Applying it with a brass brush could be another story. Anything that polishes the bore is removing a microscopic amount of metal so the people who use it must consider the trade off of accuracy vs. barrel life to be worthwhile. I personally wouldn't use anything more than the minimum necessary to remove residue but any cleaning device pushed down the barrel will create some degree of wear over the long haul.

 

You know Gary i wish I knew for sure . I think the brush may effect or alter the edges of the rifling -- do not have a bore scope . However Ed Shilen will tongue lash you if you tell him you used the J&B on one of his barrels , which is strange because his barrels are hand lapped ? I think the button rifling Ruger uses is quite good and it sharp edges of the rifling and angular separation of the grooves creates a uniform grip on the bullet to give repeatable accuracy. Any roughness or voids , created by grinding or mechanical force can allow gas to escape past the bullet and deteriorate accuracy by flame cutting the bullet. SGW has done some studies and work on this , hopefully he will chime in . I just know I could hold groups between .25-.35 at 25 yards before I scrubbed the bore with wire brush then J&B and after the "cleaning" the same gun with the same ammo from the same lot shot close to 1" groups and after several magazines settled down to approximately .65-.75 " CTC . One of our bench rest competitors , BR50, cleaned his CZ Varmint aggressively -- like I did -- went from .12-.20 CTC groups at 50 yards to .25-.35" groups and out of the winners circle .
I am retired now and have a lot of time to do research on guns and ammunition and really enjoy it , miss the old lab days I guess. A group of guys and I shoot with every Thursday , they also enjoy shooting and precise gun work , so with two aeronautical engineers and a former armor for the navy seals I have to stay on my toes and yes I have to provide proof to them too or I will not hear the last of . Thanks for the interesting conversation. Jim

 

That is kind of odd to hear about JB. A lot of benchrest shooters use the product. I don't believe it is needed to cut any crud in a rimfire though. Kroil should be able to get under just about anything there or one of the copper removers if you actually do have some buildup. I have never had a problem with lead, just lube.

 

Update on the Lite and leading.

I shot four brands of copper washed bullets but the Federal 550 bulk hps shot the best. I shot a decent group offhand at 25 yards in dead calm cool conditions. The gun grouped 1.5" edge to edge and I was pretty impressed with this range trip with the Lite VS the last range trip. The copper washed bullets did not lead like the plain bullets did . I shot more than 150 rounds and the barrel has a little powder fouling but that is all. --- thank goodness !! The gun shot CCI Tactical good also but it shot that round about 3" low at 25 yards. It shoots the RGB+/-2.5" but 2" high and it shoots the WW Dynapoint target pretty good but shoots it left about 1.5" of POA .The gun still has an occasional Failure To feed but it is still new and needs to be shot some more.
My opinion of the gun has improved after this trip .I think it will be a fairly accurate lite companion in the field . Target gun , maybe not, but pretty good shooter. BTW the groups I shot today from the sand bags was not as good as the off hand group , I guess because of the bounce on the bags from the light weight gun. Nice day nothing broke !! Jim.