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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I tried shooting Jaia's Grid recently. He keeps asking, "Can you hit what your aiming at?" ... I think, "Sure but there's one caveat...I'll need a low to no wind day at the range."
I came away from Jaia's Grid with a new point of view about grids. I've used them to do lengthy testing with the Harrell tuner but it never dawned on me to use the grid to get a graph on what the wind does here at my range.
"Why not shoot a grid, aiming at the intersection of the vertical and horizontal lines and forget the wind? I mean ignore the wind in setting up your POA. What would happen then?"
I would get a series of offset POI's that reflect what the wind did to each and every shot...of course that has to be documented with wind speed and direction...written down for every shot.
I know this sounds like a lot of effort for a session at the range but I have been having trouble trying to use the various graphs to predict wind offsets...



they don't exactly reflect what I see happening here at my range...so that's a problem if I want to hit what I'm aiming at.
Here I have a house that blocks or buffets the wind for the first half of the 50 yards...I think that's one of the reasons that I don't see wind deflections that match the various illustrations on the web.



I've been gathering various tips along the way, one being use lots of flags, so I did that...



The only problem with flags is that they sometimes disagree...like a lot of the time.



I suspect that there are few ranges that would produce the same wind offsets in our shooting simply because they are all laid out differently. Some have walls between the target butts and a large berm in the rear, some have trees dispersed along the side, etc. & etc. and some ranges are wide open. Wide open ranges I think would be the only ones that shoot similar to each other.
I say that because walls & berms and Houses all effect the wind.



Keep in mind that this illustration is a 9:00 full value wind if your thinking of my range...when the wind direction changes, the size and shapes of all those wind eddies change also. I won't try to illustrate that now but it changes quite a bit...those wind flags above can leave you scratching your head over what you are seeing.

OK, SO BOTTOM LINE HERE . . . I'll get back to the grid idea. If I shoot a series of grids that reflect various winds and directions for say...up to 6 miles per hour, I'll have a forensic footprint of how my range responds to wind.
Then I can reference my own graphs to learn to compensate for the wind. Here's what I'm talking about, I finally got one graph done yesterday...



There are several 'starts & stops' at first, that's why you see so many warmer shot groups as I wanted to verify my POA/POI...even though I tried to schedule my shooting with the Windy.com weather report, I still had to wait a couple hours for the wind to actually build up. That's one of the reasons I had so many 'CBS's' on the grid. I will l learn to improve my timing and my note taking as time passes. I intend to do several of these exercises before I'm done with this.



I intentionally waited for a day where I could see winds around 5mph +. Why 5 you might be thinking? Because 5 to 6mph is all the wind my flags & streamers are able to predict accurately. For winds higher than this I will have to have a different type of wind indicator. I'll deal with that when I get enough graphs to think reasonably I have that forensic footprint of how my range responds to wind.



This is about all I have to say at the moment...I need many more graphs to establish an average of all the wind conditions, directions & velocities before I can replicate a wind graph that is more accurate than the one posted above.
With this information, in the future...the idea is to hit 'X's' in the Green Monster...that is no easy thing to do.

If any of you have anything to add to this post, especially if some of you try this idea of getting a forensic footprint of your range...please feel free to add to this discussion your results or difficulties.
The idea behind this post is to have more definite data that will help all of us to improve on the basic idea of Jaia's question...
"Can you hit what your aiming at?"
 

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I tried shooting Jaia's Grid recently. He keeps asking, "Can you hit what your aiming at?" ... I think, "Sure but there's one caveat...I'll need a low to no wind day at the range."
I came away from Jaia's Grid with a new point of view about grids. I've used them to do lengthy testing with the Harrell tuner but it never dawned on me to use the grid to get a graph on what the wind does here at my range.
"Why not shoot a grid, aiming at the intersection of the vertical and horizontal lines and forget the wind? I mean ignore the wind in setting up your POA. What would happen then?"
I would get a series of offset POI's that reflect what the wind did to each and every shot...of course that has to be documented with wind speed and direction...written down for every shot.
I know this sounds like a lot of effort for a session at the range but I have been having trouble trying to use the various graphs to predict wind offsets...



they don't exactly reflect what I see happening here at my range...so that's a problem if I want to hit what I'm aiming at.
Here I have a house that blocks or buffets the wind for the first half of the 50 yards...I think that's one of the reasons that I don't see wind deflections that match the various illustrations on the web.



I've been gathering various tips along the way, one being use lots of flags, so I did that...



The only problem with flags is that they sometimes disagree...like a lot of the time.



I suspect that there are few ranges that would produce the same wind offsets in our shooting simply because they are all laid out differently. Some have walls between the target butts and a large berm in the rear, some have trees dispersed along the side, etc. & etc. and some ranges are wide open. Wide open ranges I think would be the only ones that shoot similar to each other.
I say that because walls & berms and Houses all effect the wind.



Keep in mind that this illustration is a 9:00 full value wind if your thinking of my range...when the wind direction changes, the size and shapes of all those wind eddies change also. I won't try to illustrate that now but it changes quite a bit...those wind flags above can leave you scratching your head over what you are seeing.

OK, SO BOTTOM LINE HERE . . . I'll get back to the grid idea. If I shoot a series of grids that reflect various winds and directions for say...up to 6 miles per hour, I'll have a forensic footprint of how my range responds to wind.
Then I can reference my own graphs to learn to compensate for the wind. Here's what I'm talking about, I finally got one graph done yesterday...



There are several 'starts & stops' at first, that's why you see so many warmer shot groups as I wanted to verify my POA/POI...even though I tried to schedule my shooting with the Windy.com weather report, I still had to wait a couple hours for the wind to actually build up. That's one of the reasons I had so many 'CBS's' on the grid. I will l learn to improve my timing and my note taking as time passes. I intend to do several of these exercises before I'm done with this.



I intentionally waited for a day where I could see winds around 5mph +. Why 5 you might be thinking? Because 5 to 6mph is all the wind my flags & streamers are able to predict accurately. For winds higher than this I will have to have a different type of wind indicator. I'll deal with that when I get enough graphs to think reasonably I have that forensic footprint of how my range responds to wind.



This is about all I have to say at the moment...I need many more graphs to establish an average of all the wind conditions, directions & velocities before I can replicate a wind graph that is more accurate than the one posted above.
With this information, in the future...the idea is to hit 'X's' in the Green Monster...that is no easy thing to do.

If any of you have anything to add to this post, especially if some of you try this idea of getting a forensic footprint of your range...please feel free to add to this discussion your results or difficulties.
The idea behind this post is to have more definite data that will help all of us to improve on the basic idea of Jaia's question...
"Can you hit what your aiming at?"
sometimes we get paralyses by analyses, I applaud your efforts sir! for me, I shall stick to a wee bit of luck, my note book, and however many clicks left or right I think the wind may be divided by the cosin of the angle from 90....er something!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
sometimes we get paralyses by analyses, I applaud your efforts sir! for me, I shall stick to a wee bit of luck, my note book, and however many clicks left or right I think the wind may be divided by the cosin of the angle from 90....er something!
My shooting is restricted to 50 yards until I'm able to set up another range at 100 yards. I want to be able to use 'Kentucky Windage' accurately without ever touching the turrets.
 

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You describe a plan to develop a "forensic footprint of how my range responds to wind." As you observe, it's an ambitious effort born of a frustration with the problem of adapting to the difficult wind conditions you experience.

The two methods of measuring and evaluating the wind footprint here are by means of wind flags and "to use the grid to get a graph on what the wind does here at my range."

While the wind flags will give an indication of what the wind is doing where they are placed, is the ammo behavior consistent enough to be used as a tool with which to reliably measure wind?

Even in the absence of wind, ammo often doesn't behave in a predictable way. In other words, without wind, bullets can and do go in places other than where they might be expected to go. Often the "grid" tells shooters about the ammo and the wind and it can be hard to separate one from the other.
 

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First of all...really cool stuff. I can tell you are passionate about the subject and pooring yourself into it. It is fun to experiment and observe and I think even if not determinative it does make us/you better. In all of these wind experiments there are just too many variables to get some sort of 100% conclusion with repeatable results.

The WIND along the 50 yard track is NEVER the same.
The shooter's process has variations from shot to shot (even if not perceptible)
AND as Jaia has shown many a time...the variability round to round is multifaceted.

In the future maybe it will be possible...with a wind bar running the 50 yard range in its entirerty...and a quantum computer attached to both it and also controlling the rifle...and more precise rimfire manufacturing.

Please don't take this as poo pooing what you are doing!!! I love it and attempt the same things myself..

But might it not be like "belling the cat"
 

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Trying to shoot small groups or hit small targets consistently is tough to do without a good set of wind flags. I have several of those charts that show how you should hold off for a given condition and they might work but only if all the flags are showing the same condition. I've shot over flags at several different ranges now and I rarely see that happen. Pretty much never. I shot a BR match yesterday. The wind wasn't heavy but definitely enough that you needed to pay close attention to the flags. I basically found one or two prominent conditions that I could trust (tested with sighters) and waited for those conditions before shooting. Sometimes it would seem like my prominent conditions weren't coming back so I had to shoot the sighter bulls to see what was going to happen. I learned when the flags were all showing yellow (left to right wind) or the flags were all different pulling the trigger was a roll of the dice. Sometimes it worked out ok and sometimes it didn't . The flags all showing red (right to left wind) was much more predictable. I already knew all this from shooting USBR targets for a few years at the club I belonged to in N. IL. I realized yesterday it's no different where I shoot now. Find a prominent condition (or more) that produces predictable results and be patient. 20 minutes to shoot a ARA card is plenty of time
 

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As a confirmed math hater, I will stick with my intuition as my guide.

It has served me well thus far.

:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
JAIA...
Powder burns are OK with game but if I try to sneak up close to get an impressive group...well...I get busted every time!



MADDMATTER 1970...

Luck wins out over technical expertise & experience every time! :oops:

PENAGE GUY...

I agree, the ammo/rifle/shooter combination can ruin what I think would be a good footprint. I've considered this and at this point am OK with that.
This is the best I can expect from this current combination on various tuner settings, I don't think it will muddy the data too awful much.
After all...I'm after a general footprint and then knowing that, I realize that each call is going to be based on what all the flags are saying and how well I can interpret the information on the fly...even with this ... wind 'was' a factor.



Something I didn't mention and should have is that I check the overall conditions of the wind at a higher level than where I shoot from...I check the flagpole for the wind that's hitting the hill that I shoot from...this gives me a good idea of the basic wind and velocity before it is affected by obstacles on the range. That flagpole is about 30' over my head and the air there is uninterrupted from 'close by' surrounding trees or hills, even my barn is 50 yards distant and lower in elevation. I have to use what I have even if it's with a small 'caveat'.
You can just see my bench in the background to the left of the base of the pole and about 30 yards distant. This is a great 'primary' indicator for what I am dealing with over there.



STEPHENBACHIL...

Agreed, but I have to see this through. I may not achieve my goal but in the end...but...I'll dang sure know more about my wind on this range than I did before I started.

PWNOLAN...

Thanks, this is the type of information I hoped to collect in this posting...nothing TRUMPS experience in the field....well...that is 'luck' excluded! :cool:
 

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JAIA...
Powder burns are OK with game but if I try to sneak up close to get an impressive group...well...I get busted every time!



MADDMATTER 1970...

Luck wins out over technical expertise & experience every time! :oops:

PENAGE GUY...

I agree, the ammo/rifle/shooter combination can ruin what I think would be a good footprint. I've considered this and at this point am OK with that.
This is the best I can expect from this current combination on various tuner settings, I don't think it will muddy the data too awful much.
After all...I'm after a general footprint and then knowing that, I realize that each call is going to be based on what all the flags are saying and how well I can interpret the information on the fly...even with this ... wind 'was' a factor.



Something I didn't mention and should have is that I check the overall conditions of the wind at a higher level than where I shoot from...I check the flagpole for the wind that's hitting the hill that I shoot from...this gives me a good idea of the basic wind and velocity before it is affected by obstacles on the range. That flagpole is about 30' over my head and the air there is uninterrupted from 'close by' surrounding trees or hills, even my barn is 50 yards distant and lower in elevation. I have to use what I have even if it's with a small 'caveat'.
You can just see my bench in the background to the left of the base of the pole and about 30 yards distant. This is a great 'primary' indicator for what I am dealing with over there.



STEPHENBACHIL...

Agreed, but I have to see this through. I may not achieve my goal but in the end...but...I'll dang sure know more about my wind on this range than I did before I started.

PWNOLAN...

Thanks, this is the type of information I hoped to collect in this posting...nothing TRUMPS experience in the field....well...that is 'luck' excluded! :cool:
my wife won't let me put up a flag pole on our orchard. I have flag envy.... mighty nice flags.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I thought I'd have a good wind day today, good data gathering day...one wind direction and upwards of 5mph. I was looking forward to that data but it wasn't quite so.
This was the forecast but...(the story of my range life...always a 'but' in there!)



I had set up just after 11:00am but the wind just never stopped switching around so I started shooting at 12:45pm...got tired and hot from waiting.
Like last time, I took shot for shot notes at the bench.



Not very good data for several reasons:
one - the wind is not a relatively stable coming out of my 8 & 9:00 side, it wasn't really bad, as you can see there's a lot of 'same direction wind' just not same velocity.
two - I set the vane up so I didn't have to remove my cheek weld to see it but estimating velocity from the streamer is not exactly exact.
three - I set the anemometer up so I could see it also without coming off the comb but I couldn't read it and it wasn't accurate for the varying directions of the wind.

This is sorta my view of them both...the anemometer & vane...



I can't do anything about problem 'one' other than hope for the best as summer heats up and winds get stronger.
I can and did fix problems two & three...the vane stays put but the anemometer will get replaced by one that can be placed on the bench so I don't have to strain to see it and
use an anemometer that has a horizontal set of wind cups, that makes it 'not sensitive' to how it faces the wind direction.
I ordered this one a couple days back...



This one can set atop a small flex-tripod and face directly towards me there on the left side of the rifle.
With this change I think I can get more accurate data.
Several of the shots on the card just don't make sense...almost like I threw several shots but I did not, I had no call shots where I made a problem for myself, they all felt good.
I think I can start getting better data to build that forensic footprint of my range, it's just that with every experiment, you tend to change and become more efficient as you progress.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
interesting charts and discussion , fun to see your photos and results , it gives a better idea of what your dealing with ,
Thanks, I hope to have more accurate data as my routine gets better. It's not hard to determine that I am going to shoot but it's hard to send that shot on the call I choose, the wind switches so quickly. Several times I'd take a call when the wind was full value and within seconds be back in the scope and sending it but the next instant, in the next second I look up to verify that wind again...it's switched around to a 1/2 value, all that in the span of 10 seconds or so.
That makes me nervous about the accuracy of my notes.
Things always work out given enough time at this, practice makes better.
 

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I have shot jaia's grid. But I did it when it was calm so I could see what the ammo was doing. And what the rifle and scope were capable of. I believe that was the intent of jaia's grid. Although I can see where it would be helpful with wind. Interesting post. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I have shot jaia's grid. But I did it when it was calm so I could see what the ammo was doing. And what the rifle and scope were capable of. I believe that was the intent of jaia's grid. Although I can see where it would be helpful with wind. Interesting post. Thanks.
I shot his grid once also. After studying how I did I came to the conclusion that I could have done better if I were able to call the wind shots better. It was a mild day less than 3mph but even 3mph can really move that POI.
This is what gave me the idea of shooting at the crosses and seeing just how far that projectile is moving from the direction and velocity of the wind.
This may not be the answer just yet but for now it's more fun than trying to shoot bugholes all day.

 

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I shot his grid once also. After studying how I did I came to the conclusion that I could have done better if I were able to call the wind shots better. It was a mild day less than 3mph but even 3mph can really move that POI.
This is what gave me the idea of shooting at the crosses and seeing just how far that projectile is moving from the direction and velocity of the wind.
This may not be the answer just yet but for now it's more fun than trying to shoot bugholes all day.

Nice! Collectively, one of the nicest 50 shot groups ever!
 

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Your shots have the wave pattern I noticed when I shot mine. Jaia said it was the wind. I'm not so sure. But I hardly think it is ammo inconsistency being that consistent.
I waited until I had a calm day to shoot as I was interested in the ammo and not dealing with wind.
 
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