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Winchester Mod. 1890 2nd Variation

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I recently picked up a Win. 1890 .22 Short, 2nd variation, circa 1900 in pretty decent condition. The little gun still retains maybe 20% receiver case colors and the wood is better than good and may grade as just a bit under excellent. The problem is the bolt does not lock into battery when closed in either the safety position or in full cock. I have the disassembly manuel by Radocy but it only shows the disassembly of the 3rd variation bolt.

I have been told the two bolts differ in the way they lock into battery. I would like to know if wear of the bolt is responsible for the lack of lock-up or if there is another possible issue at fault. Also, before I dig into the bolt disassembly, can anyone recommend an online website or offer information on the earlier 1890 bolt maintenance and repair.

Thanks,
fishydr
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It may be the firing pin stop

Hi fishydr,

What locks the bolt is the projection on the front left side of the firing pin. I had this problem recently and found that the firing pin stop was too long, thus not allowing the firing pin lock projection on the firing pin to come back far enough to securely lock inside the receiver wall. Shortening the firing pin stop just a tad was enough to let the lock operate as it was intended. Check it out. I think this probably is your problem. The firing pin stop is held in place by the two small screws on the top left side of the bolt. They can be difficult to remove. Let us know how you make out.

Hossfeathers:Blasting_
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am a bit confused. After I remove the firing pin (I have jewelers screwdrivers just for this), what part do I shorten? Is the firing pin stop on the firing pin or part of the bolt itself? How much shortening is necessary?

Thanks, this is a great lead.

Fishydr
 

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Description of firing pin stop

Hi fishydr,

You will notice, on the left face of the bolt, a long skinny part let into the side of the bolt. This is the firing pin stop. It is held in place by those two tiny screws. It is squared off on its front end and matches the contour of the bolt body on its rear end. You may have to gently pry it out of its slot due to decades of hardened oil. You will also notice that the front end of the firing pin stop butts up against the lock projection on the left front side of the firing pin. By pushing on the firing pin and letting it back again you can see how the lock moves with the firing pin and stops against the firing pin stop. You will not need to do anything with the firing pin itself, unless you have the unhappy situation of the lock projection being broken off. This has happened to me once. In that case, you will need to acquire a replacement firing pin. That lock projection fits into a slot in the interior face of the left side of the receiver and affects the locking action when all is as it should be. The triangular shaped lock projection needs to come back far enough past the solid part of the bolt body that is located directly above it to securely seat into the locking slot in the receiver. Either find another firing pin stop that is a little bit shorter at its front end, or carefully grind off a little bit from the front end of yours, reinstall it, and see if that makes any difference with your locking problem. Other than normal usage wear, I can't understand how a gun gets this way. It can't have left the factory this way, and the front end of the firing pin stop can't get LONGER due to usage. Perhaps someone else out there has an idea. Once again, kindly let us know how you make out.

Hossfeathers:Blasting_
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hoss:

Now I am going to ruffle some feathers with the latest developments. I removed the bolt and the firing pin stop. No problem with those tiny screws as the jewelers screw driver was perfect for the job. But the firing pin wouldn't come out until I inserted a drift into the firing pin hole in the front of the bolt. Out it came. Figured it must be gummed up with old grease. WRONG!! Even after I cleaned the bolt thoroughly with solvent and scrubbed the firing pin I could feel a catch when I reinserted the firing pin. Whatever the problem was, it didn't allow for the pin to retract entirely to the firing pin stop unless I helped it with the drift. Close examination showed a slight burr on the left side of the firing pin stop channel. I gently filed the burr flat, reinstalled the firing pin and it worked smoothly and retracted fully. Fixed. WRONG!!!

When the gun was reassembled it would still not lock into battery. So I removed the bolt again and this time I removed the firing pin stop and shortened it slightly but significantly enough to allow the firing pin to retract even more. Surely this would do it. I assembled the gun, racked the pump and WRONG!!! It would not battery.

I examined the little groove on the inside of the left side of the receiver and it appeared perfect and unworn. I lifted the slide rail to free the bolt in preparation for removal once again. Then a thought struck me. Without the aid of the pump slide rail in place, and the bolt free to move, I slid the bolt forward and it locked into full battery!!! The firing pin was fully retracted. I depressed the firing pin and the bolt easily released. Long story short, the bolt assembly was functioning perfectly and as intended.

So the problem fell to the pump rail. I have no idea why that rail should make a difference in causing a battery failure to lock. Do you have any suggestions?

By the way, thanks for all of the help so far.

fishydr
 

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My idea tank is running on empty

Hi fishydr,

Hmmmm. Indeed a puzzle. If the slide rail pin and the mating cam slot in the bolt are not worn to the point that the bolt doesn't close fully down when the slide handle is moved fully forward, then I am out of ideas. I have a friend who had to have the cam slot on one of his bolts welded up and recontoured because wear in the slot/rail pin combination was causing his bolt to have lockup problems, if I remember correctly. A very unusual situation, indeed. I should have asked you to hold the gun up to your computer screen so I could have had a good look at the situation before offering my advice. Sounds like you are getting close to solving the mystery.

Hossfeathers:Blasting_
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hoss:

I believe you are right on the X ring with this one. The cam slot determines the final bolt position in the battery lock-up. It does appear to be slightly larger as I fitted different drill bits to compare the forward diameter with the rear diameter of the slot. I do have a digital caliper and can measure but my eye could see a slight difference. However the bit comparison showed it clearly. Therefore with that wear pattern, the forward action of the slide could not reliably bring the bolt forward quite far enough to lock into battery. I think, my friend, we have it nailed. I am looking at a new bolt, 2nd variation. UGH. Any suggestions as to a source? No repros.

Fishydr
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I will measure the bolt slot measurement and post them for others with a simular problem. This has been a great thread that I am finding is more common with this Mod. than I was aware of. I hope our discussion will be helpful to others too.

Thanks
fishydr
 

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Forward movement of bolt

Hi fishydr,

One final little thing. The forward motion of the bolt is only limited by how far the action slide is moved forward. When the pin in the slide rail reaches the forward end of the cam slot in the bolt (this can only happen when the bolt is fully forward and has dropped down into the battery well in the receiver), the action slide cannot go any further forward, and neither can the bolt. So the bolt can never be in a "not far enough forward" state. The only problem would be if the fit between the pin in the slide rail and the forward end of the cam slot is sloppy enough to keep the forward end of the bolt from camming down completely and seating properly, so that the firing pin lock can not slide into place. You will notice that the action slide and bolt move exactly in unison until the bolt is ready to drop down and seat. At that point, the bolt stops moving forward, but the action slide continues to slide forward in the cam, pulling the bolt down into place. It's quite an impressive mechanism. In fact, the whole gun's mechanism is quite impressive. When John Browning sent plans to Winchester for the rifle, Winchester's engineers proclaimed that the gun could not be built. A couple of weeks later, Browning sent Winchester a working model, and the rest is history. I hope I have described all this in an understandable way and have not just succeeded in confusing you. I nearly confused myself.

Hossfeathers:Blasting_
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks Hoss. Problem found.

Hi fishydr,

The only problem would be if the fit between the pin in the slide rail and the forward end of the cam slot is sloppy enough to keep the forward end of the bolt from camming down completely and seating properly, so that the firing pin lock can not slide into place.

Hoss:

The measurements of the bolt cam slot are: Rear of slot/.234", Front of slot (the important area for camming into battery)/.254",Length of cam slot/.794". That seems to be where the problem is and as I mentioned before, the bolt locks into battery when finger actuated without the use of the slide or the cam slot. So everything else in the bolt checks out and the groove on the inside of the left side of the receiver too. Therefore it would appear there is enough wear on the front of the cam slot to not allow the slide button to complete the full battery function.

Looks like a new bolt. At least I know what measurements to avoid. I hope this thread and the measurements are helpful to others on this board. Thanks for your interest and knowledgeable suggestions.

Fishydr
 
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