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Weird problem- 1st shot 504

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I have a new 504 and today I was shooting it about 100 feet. With CCI mini mags, I can cover the last 5 shots with a pencil eraser. But, the first shot is about 1.25" low, centered, each time. I tried different magazines, and it was the same thing. I tried shooting 1 magazine, and then quickly switching magazines and firing off the next 6 shots. The second full magazine, warm barrel, did not throw the first shot. When it was shooting the first shot low, I had up to 5-8 minutes between mags as as I would go downrange and check the target. So, it seems a "cold" barrel is a problem.

Any ideas how to cure this?

Thanks!

Kurt
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I have a 541T that does the same thing. The first " cold " shot is often...not always...but often to the left about 1 1/2" inches. After that things are fine. I don"t know if anything can be done about it. I have heard of this happening with other makes of .22 rimfire as well . I have just learned to live with it in my 541T . I also own a 504 in .22 but it doesn"t throw the first shot.
 

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I have seen this problem on several posts. I would be in bad shape if that happened all the time with my rifles.

I don't shoot paper all that often as the ranges around good old TOPEKA just don't have any league's that I can get involved in.

SO I AM STUCK WITH protecting my 40 acre's and the good birds from STARLINGS, CRACKLERS. I line up on one and that is the first shot, that has to count... I think if I had a gun that would not hit were the cross hairs were, I would have to give it to one of you guys that put up with that kind of stuff.

As an older officer, I would hate to think the sniper weapons we used in the SWAT team, had a FLYER the first round out... NOW THAT IS BAD.. and unexceptable, can you imagine a hostage situation and you had a rifle like that..

OK, old age and I am rambling,,,, SORRY

safe shooting John
 

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Yodausa\

I'm with you on that. If I had a gun that shot that far out in 100 feet, I'd have to fix it or get rid of it. That said, I'd have to say there is some sort of bedding problem that needs to be addressed. How are the barrels attached on the 504? Is that a possible source of the problem?

I hope he can find the problem. I agree, that kind of first shot flyer would drive me crazy.

EJ
 

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LS1F, I don't have a 504 and I don't know if they are supposed to have a pressure point at the front of the barrel channel. Try slipping a crisp dollar bill into the barrel channel and slide it up the length of the barrel to see if it is free floated. Sometimes a small contact point can cause havoc on an eitherwise free floating barrel. If there is a clight contact you can sand it out with some 180 wrapped on a doweel or socket in the channel.
 

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One THEORY on this is the lube in the barrel from previous shots is cold.

On the first shot, that "cold barrel/cold lube condition" causes the barrel to find a different zero, and the bullet goes out of the normal shot placement area. The barrel is now warm due to friction. The following shots go to "warm barrel / warm lube condition" zero point.

A clean barrel also will have a different zero point in this THEORY . As the barrel fouls and warms, it seeks it's normal zero point.

An other THEORY is, if a barrel has internal stresses, that once it warms, the barrel will move and seek another zero point. That one sould not (better not) be an issue with an ultra grade, premium barrel.

Another THEORY is a barrel can have all of these issues @ the same time!

OK you wise-acres...NO "warm lube" jokes! :D
 

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I had a 541-T that would do that very same thing, but it also was not as accurate as my 541-S either.

I tried a bit of tinkering to get it to shoot, but found it was not worth my time and aggrevation. So I got rid of it. If you are hunting or shooting game/pests, you need a rifle that will put your first cold shot exactly on target.

I still have my 541-S, but now have been into the CZ end of things and none of my CZ's (I have four) will throw the first shot off.

Since you have to count the flyers as part of the group, your rifle is shooting at 1.25". You do have to look at it that way as it is your cold shot that will count the most.

My solution? I had the same problem and got rid of the rifle or you could spend as much for a new barrel as you did on the gun to begin with.

Good luck.
 

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You have a normal Remington 504, after a few shots and the barrel warms up you will be fine.
I would say if this behavior is normal for a 504, then something must be wrong in the design or manufacture. What would that be? What remedy would be required?

This would not be tolerable for me in a hunting rifle. Maybe paper punchers can live with it, but hunters can't.

EJ
 

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A KDF K22 I still have would do the same thing when I first got it. I finally sent it back to KDF, they checked it out and sent it back with a target they shot plus a note that said, "try a better quality scope and scope rings".:eek: I was ticked!!!:mad: To make a long story short, I put a new Burris 6X Mini AO scope on it with Leupold low rimfire rings (which I had to shim since the dovetail on the K22 was 11mm) and never had that problem again. Almost 30yrs. later, it still shoots little bitty groups with that same setup.:bthumb:
 

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I had a 541T that did this fairly badly, but my 504 even with the factory barrel didn't, or at least if it did the accuracy was so bad I didn't notice it, lol. The Lilja barrel did not do it for sure.

Gerald
 

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I had a 541T that did this fairly badly, but my 504 even with the factory barrel didn't, or at least if it did the accuracy was so bad I didn't notice it, lol. The Lilja barrel did not do it for sure.

Gerald
I should have bought that 541 from you and fixed the flyer problem.;) Your 504 was a great deal and somebody now has superb shooter.
 

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I know better than to post most of the time and usally people don't want the truth or facts. If you talk to almost all of the better rimfire benchrest shooters, one of the things we all seem to agree on is the first 3 or 4 shots from a cold barrel are just to warm up the barrel. This is from people shooting custom guns with the best parts available in the best rests. The first shot out of all my guns is just a warm up shot that usally goes high left.
I post scores on this site's on-line matches.
Jim Pollard
:) :D :)
 

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I have a Mossberg 146 Ba and a Charles Daly Zastava that both do the same thing.

Is not a problem shooting groups as I just load 6 and put 1 in the dirt (this is a VERY common solution).

It is not a huge problem on a hunting rifle either, as long as it does the SAME THING each time. You have two options:

1. Sight in for the first shot. With a bolt action hunting rifle MOST shots are going to be first shots.

2. If you know the rifle shoot 1" low, hold 1" high on 1st shot. Shooting starlings you just hold on the head and hit the chest....no big deal really.

Funny thing is semi autos are often blamed for the "1st shot flier" but I have 2 10/22 SuperStock rifles that put the first shot from a cold/clean barrel right in the middle of the group:eek: :D :rolleyes: Why is that? They both have Green Mountain Heavy Sporter barrels but I think it is because both rifles are glass bedded VERY tightly with a good amount of up pressure from a barrel pad in the forearm. I do a lot of 100 yard shooting with these rifles and both will shoot the cold barrel shot right into the group.

My "barrel pad" is a pad of glass bedding but a piece of tire inner tube or mouse pad or business cards also work.

Only on the 10/22. NO!! I have a Rem 700 in .243 that shoot much better with a barrel pressure pad. Free floating CAN be the worst thing you can do.

Try a business card or two under the barrel and see if it helps. May very well tighten your groups as well.
 

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I'm with Vincent on the barrel pad. About 1/2 of my rifles shoot better with a barrel pad and the 504 Rem. are factory equiped with them. I would try more torque on the front action screw which in turn will put a little more barrel pressure on the pad. I certainly would do that first before I did any barrel free floating on a 504 Rem. Also, lighter trigger pulls have a way of tightening groups up too.;)
 

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Pressure Pads & Action Bolt Torque Basics

If the factory pressure point squeaks when the barrel is pushed it needs to go. Factory pressure pads are problematic because they are mass produced and may fit improperly, causing the barrels to shift against them and put tension into the action. Shooting stores energy while a pause lets the action spring back against the pad, putting it in a different position. Nasty problem.

Start with pulling the action from the stock, check that the cross bolt that pinches the barrel into the receiver and the set screw are snug (anyone know those torque settings?), and then replace the action into the stock, torque the front bolt to 26 inch pounds, and then the rear, also to 26. Listen for squeaks and groans from the stock, especially the pressure pad, that would indicate poor fit or cracking. If the pressure pad creaks immediately, sand it out now.

Shoot some groups. Better or worse? If it's satisfactory, just keep shooting. Otherwise, keep reading.

If the pressure pad is still in, sand it out. Shoot some groups. Better or worse? If it's satisfactory, just keep shooting. Otherwise, keep reading.

If you've read this far, the pressure pad is gone and the problem is still there or worse, so it's time to try a new, custom fit pressure pad. Separate stock and action enough to fit index card strips, about 1" wide, between barrel and stock about where the original pad was until there's just enough to cradle the barrel without upward pressure. Torque the action bolts and test.

Shoot some groups. Better or worse? If it's satisfactory, it's time to build a new pressure pad. I like Acraglas with release agent from the kit - mix up enough to form a pad, plop the action in, and torque it. This will create a perfectly fit pressure pad that supports the barrel without putting tension into the action.

There are no guarantees here. You may go through all this and have a rifle that shoots worse, the same, or ideally much better. The more I shoot the 504, the more problems I discover. Out of the box, there's the barrel. Then there's this set of problems. At about 6,000 rounds the bolt handle came loose. Now at 7,000 rounds there's a head space problem. You can make these rifles shoot, but keeping them shooting under hard use is quite an adventure.
 

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Are your barrels clean when you fire the first shot? Not unusual for the first shot on a clean bore to be different from shots fired after the bore is fouled. If you've been shooting the first shot on a clean barrel next time you shoot don't clean the gun and try shooting the next time with a fouled bore on the first shot.
 

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try loading by hand one at a time

this would eliminate the possibile magazine problem.
i've seen very few guns that shoot to the poa when cold.
if it's that important to have the first shot on. zero the gun
for the first shot that's what i do with my deer rifles. and i
leave the bore fouled from the last time at the range. then
if it's consistant note where your scope settings are normally
now and just turn the knobs to bring it back in.
 
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