Rimfire Central Firearm Forum banner

Simmons WTC 18 problems

2231 43
I'm not at all happy with the WTC-18 scope I mounted on my CZ 452 lux. Compared to the Simmons 4 X 32 air gun competition scope that I tried on it first, the groups are larger. I don't have the measurements but it is a very noticeable difference. I shot in low wind off a bench at a club with rabbit ear rear sandbag and a hornady delta rest up front. I've shot enough with this to know what to expect.

As for the zeroing capability, it stinks. After adjusting for a 6 inch drop at 100 yds, clicking back to the original setting at 25 yds produced a vertical stringing pattern about 2 inches long which settled over an inch off zero. I did not try this with the 4X to be able to say how it compares.

I'm sending it back. I still wish I could find a decent mil-dot scope to avoid the need for range adjustments. I have a feeling nothing in my price range (under $200) will zero so I'll likely just settle for something that shoots good groups at one elevation setting. I think with my high Beeman rings I could mount a 44 mag.

Any suggestions what to replace it with?

Arlie
1 - 20 of 44 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,463 Posts
If you are currently mounting the WTC-18 50mm, you can certainly mount any of the 44Mag seires with no problem.

I have one of the WTC-18's mounted on my Anschutz and while I have to re-zero when moving from 25 to 50 or vice-versa, it has never been a problem. I haven't used it for Silhouette, where you need the ability to dial in a zero for a given distance & be assured it is there (with no sighter shots) so I don't know how it would fare. I also have a Model 1048 44 Mag mounted on a Remington 513T. I have no complaints about it either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
What scopes zero well?

Thanks claybuster. Since the zeroing and grouping are bad I think this scope must be a lemon as I got good reports from others on this forum before choosing it. Still it makes me reluctant to try the same model again. From reading other posts I think it's not too ususual to get a lemon when buying budget scopes.

I'd sure like to hear from anyone who has good success with a budget scope that zeroes. I want to stay in the 6-20 ballpark.

Any comments from the sillouette shooters?

Arlie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,463 Posts
I have never read any unfavorable comments on the Simmons 1048 6.5-20X44. I have been very pleased with mine. Only negative I have noticed is the thick crosshairs (same as the WTC-18). But there again, I haven't used mine on a Silhouette range. The Weaver T16 I did use for Silhouette was phenomenal. Once you established the settings you could dial them in & be sure the zero for that range was there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,642 Posts
Hornady Delta Rest

esau5,
I shot in low wind off a bench at a club with rabbit ear rear sandbag and a hornady delta rest up front.
Unless you had a pad over the "delta rest", I would suspect the interaction of the rest and forearm as the problem in your case. I have seen shooters having the same problem using this type of 'hard' rest at our range........ :(
After adjusting for a 6 inch drop at 100 yds, clicking back to the original setting at 25 yds produced a vertical stringing pattern about 2 inches long which settled over an inch off zero.
You just made a 24 click adjustment; I am not surprised that you had some vertical stringing... :rolleyes:

Unless you were shooting a "Weaver" T with Micro-Trac, almost any scope is going to take a few shots to settle-in after that large an adjustment....... :(

I would suggest shooting it over a mechanical rest with a sand bag under the forearm before saying it is the scope...... :confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
467 Posts
Ok...

I've got 2 of the WTC18s and I must say that my best groups are with this set-up. I've got one of them on a Volquartsen 22LR and it shoots GREAT!

Now, my 3 M1048s don't hold the patterns quite as tight, but work well, nonetheless......

So, for $99, the WTC18 is what I'll stick with for now. Atleast for budget scopes.

If you're in the mood for a scope at about $259, definitely try out the Weaver V-24. Best scope in 6-24X that I've ever used!

I LOVE MINE! They are on sale at Natchez right now.

Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hornady rest and dialing for 100yds

BigMike,
I'm afraid I can't accept that the rest is the problem unless you think the weight of a larger scope brings out that problem. I do have a foam pad that I lay over the rest, but more importantly, with the 4x scope using the same method my groups were very nice. Change to WTC18 - poor groups. Back to 4X - nice groups. Go figure.

As for adjusting by dialing, this method was recommended to me here on this forum. Can't recall the subject of the post. As I said, I've already drawn your conlcusion this is likely too much to expect from a budget scope.

I'd still like to know if anyone has success dialing out to 100yds with a sub $200 scope. Are all the sillouette shooters using expensive scopes? Hmmm, no cheap mil-dots worth owning.... this shooting long range business may be a costly venture.

:confused:
Arlie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,642 Posts
esau5,
I do have a foam pad that I lay over the rest, but more importantly, with the 4x scope using the same method my groups were very nice. Change to WTC18 - poor groups. Back to 4X - nice groups. Go figure.
There was NO mention of the foam pad in the original Post..!!

Is this your first 'high power' scope.....? ?

An obvious question: Are you adjusting the WTC18's AO for the changes in the range to the target..? ? :rolleyes:

Like Viper, I have two WTC18's that perform perfectly: bright and clear out to the edge of the flat field at ALL powers; positive and repeatable 1/4 MOA clicks [audible and tactile]; NO change in POI with either power or AO changes.......! ! :cool:

Only two scopes have tracked better:
Unertl 2" Ultra Varmint [ 5X the cost ]
Weaver T-20 [ 2.5X the cost ]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
BigMike,

You're right I should have given all the details as I know they do matter.

Yes it is my first scope above 3-9. I am a novice to benchrest/target shooting but not to shooting in general. As a kid, few were the sad days that I did not take something furry or feathered.

Yes I do adjust the objective. Can't even see the target moving from 25 to 100 yds if I don't. I find the marked settings are off by a fair bit (eg set at about 60 to focus at 50).

Thanks for your input. This forum is a great thing.

Arlie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,642 Posts
esau5,

A few more questions:

0 Does your WTC18 say "Philippines" on the W&E turret....? ?
0 Approx. when was it purchased... ? ? Mine were purchased over two years ago, as were my shooting buddy's two; all four had the "Japan" 'gold oval optics inspection' stickers on their tubes, even though the W&E turrets said "Philippines" ..... :confused:
0 The AO markings are 'right-on' [ +/- 6" ] actual; I even used a 100' steel tape to check the range markers....! ! :)

The WTC18 was 'discontinued' as a "catalogued item" over eight years ago, even though it has remained in almost continuous production; it could be that "today's" WTC18's are being made at a different plant, or with different components....... :confused:

Practically everyone on RFC that has purchased them has been more than satisfied with their scope(s); most would say it is the "scope bargain of the year" ....... :cool:

What kind of rings are you using on the CZ Lux.....? ?
"The 452 American should have a 3/8"(at the bottom, 1/2" at the top) dovetail. All other 452's will have a 11mm (at the top, 10mm at the bottom) dovetail." [From CZ Customer Service]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Gold lettering on the turret:

MODEL WTC18
PHILLIPINES SC
M1

It was purchased 7/15/02 for $99.99 from Midway. I wonder if the sale price is for a reason?

There are no inspection stickers (and I did not remove any).

I'm using Beeman 5030H.

I started out with CZ rings and the 4X air gun scope and for whatever reason my best groups were with that combo. It was very exciting to see the pinpoint accuracy. With the Beeman rings and the 4X it's good but for whatever reason not quite as precise (wish I could give you measurements but I haven't kept records).
I've just attributed that to unknown variables :confused:
The switch to Beeman was to clear the rear sight on my lux.

I'm tempted to grind that sight off as one other person did on this forum and try the CZ rings but I just can't imagine how the rings could account for poor groups and poor zeroing.

I'm thinking of trying a 1048 44mag. If I can just get good groups, clear optics and nice magnification I can live with unreliable zeroing. Not sure yet if Midway will
take this one back.

Oh well, even though it's frustrating it's on opportunity to learn some new things.

Arlie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,642 Posts
esau5,
It was purchased 7/15/02 for $99.99 from Midway. I wonder if the sale price is for a reason?
The WTC18 'originally' listed for $325., back in the early 90's....! ! :eek:

It has been selling between $89.95 and $99.99, + S&H, for the past two years; I ordered mine when "Midway" still had "free" shipping....... :)

Some places want $139.95 for it....... :mad:

As you might have gathered bye now, I am suspicious of the mounting rings: the WTC18 is a very BIG scope [HUGE] to be held by only those dovetail grooves, no matter whose rings you are using......! ! :(

If either ring [front or rear] is 'falsely tight', that could be your problem........ :eek:

It sounds like a duck.....
It walks like a duck......
It looks like a duck.....
Why isn't it a duck........ :confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
I will offer a tip here: You may already know this though.
A machinist Shooting friend gave me this on when I was trying to get my 36X Tasco on at 200yds for a match where no sighters are allowed. 1st shot counts!
There is some slack in all screws, So always go past you selected click a couple clicks and back to it in the same direction every time. This takes any slack out of the threads.
He said this was common practice in lathe work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Well, I gave it some thought, realized I'm never going to use those iron sights even if they are nice, and ground off the rear sight base so I could go back to the lower CZ rings that gave such good initial results.
The WTC 18 mounts with about 1/16" clearance between bell and barrel (I wondered for a bit if I was wasting my time!).
Three ten shot groups at 100 yds average 2.2". Not that bad but I still can't consistently stay inside a 3/4" bull at 25 yds. Didn't try the 4X again yet but I know it was better.
I'll try it next. If it's no better I guess it may be the gun. Perhaps a good cleaning. So far I've only been using my bore snake every 100 rounds.
I noticed that to focus at 100 yds I had to set it at 200. Definitely bugs me.
No way I'm giving up yet.
Arlie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
978 Posts
BigMike said:

What kind of rings are you using on the CZ Lux.....? ?
"The 452 American should have a 3/8"(at the bottom, 1/2" at the top) dovetail. All other 452's will have a 11mm (at the top, 10mm at the bottom) dovetail." [From CZ Customer Service]
The 11mm dovetail is closer to 9mm at the bottom.

Once you have eliminated any possible mounting errors you should contact Simmons. They have been very helpful to me in the past and were quite willing to repair/exchange my scope when I thought there was a problem. Midway would be unlikely to exchange it once it has been mounted.

My guess is that there is something loose in the scope. Wouldn't be the first time it has happened.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
re: clicking past

Thanks Jim.
I learned that one from a web page about "how to deal with cheap scopes" and have been putting it into practise. It was also suggested that the turret knob be given a few gentle taps after the adjustment to help settle things.
Arlie:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for that tip, Brookie. I do believe I've eliminated mounting problems but I'm going to mount the 4x again with these rings and shoot comparison groups. This should give me a final answer. Then I'll call Simmons if necessary.
Arlie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,463 Posts
Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three ten shot groups at 100 yds average 2.2". Not that bad but I still can't consistently stay inside a 3/4" bull at 25 yds.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is interesting. I would think that if the gun is shooting 2" groups (especially 10-shot groups) @ 100 yds, that keeping them under 3/4" or 1/2" @ 25 should be childs play. I can't understand why it would shoot 2MOA @ 100 & open up to <3MOA @ 25.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I hear what you're saying. 2.2 at 100yds should translate into just over 1/2" at 25yds. I didn't measure groups at 25 but am sure they were over 1/2". I've got to go shoot some more to figure it out.
Arlie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,642 Posts
Parallax

esau5,
I can't understand why it would shoot 2MOA @ 100 & open up to <3MOA @ 25.
It sounds like "parallax" ........ :(

Scope is OK at 100 yards; but, when the AO is adjusted back to 25 yards, the AO isn't correcting for the parallax, which is opening up the groups....... :eek:

Look for parallax by moving your eye while the rifle is stationary on a rest with the reticle on a target....... ;)
 
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top