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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello all.
As someone may know, i'm buying a CZ 452 Varmint as my .22LR shooter. I took the CZ over a Thumbhole Savage mainly because a lot of people pointed out the quality step up of the CZ (hardened bolt, better finishes, hammer forged barrel, etc).

By the way, after the .22LR, as someone may also remember, i was looking for a rifle in .204 Ruger as long range shooter.
Said that, i was settling down with a savage Model 12, but now i was rethinking the whole thing.

The good Chaser would insist on the Remington :D but now i'm asking my other questions.

First, IS the Model 12 savage line better than it's rimfire line? 'Cause i know it's out of the box accuracy and ease to use.
I'd appreciate a lot of your experience on quality of these rifles, because they have nice features and so are in my consideration....

Second, what are IYHO, the best quality .204 rifles, not only for accuracy (i'd still go for the Savage eye blind) but for manifacturing quality and finish.

Yeah i know i'm an hassle (or an arse..hole :D ) but hey what are noobies without their questions, right??

Thanks all people!
 

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I think gun blast (gunblast.com) did a review on a .223 version might want to check it out.
If i had a choice I'd go for the remington anyday, (the military is using them for over 20 years) why not me?
I really like the looks of the Remmy 700 VLS (I would get one if I had the money)
 

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quality? Does cooper make .204? Kimber? Ruger's are nice from what ive seen of them. CZ centerfires are nice, but the big box mag kind of detract from looks.

I dont think you could go wrong with the savage centerfire. Ive read savage uses a multiple step chamber reaming process where the first cut or so are made with old reamers, and the final finishing cut is made with the newest reamer, giving better smoother chambers (more potential accuracy).

good luck on whatever you choose!
 

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First, IS the Model 12 savage line better than it's rimfire line?
Yes. They are entirely different lines and, I believe, are even made in two distinctly separate places.

what are IYHO, the best quality .204 rifles, not only for accuracy (i'd still go for the Savage eye blind) but for anifacturing quality and finish.
Yep -- subjective answers coming! I have a CZ-527 American chambered in .204. I went with the American mainly because I thought the palm swell of the kevlar-stocked varmint version of that rifle would have been too large for my hand, otherwise I would have taken it instead. (I did mail order and was not able to try the fit before buying).

I also have a Remington 700 with heavy varmint style barrel chambered in .223. It is in a synthetic H&S Precision stock.

I do not have but have seen, handled and shot a laminated wooden-stocked Savage model 12 chambered in .204 Ruger.

First, this is an apples and pears comparison. I love my CZ's traditional wood & blued steel look. The fit and finish are excellent. It is very accurate. It is very well suited to how I use it -- for hunting, with only occassional target shooting. Its thin barrel heats up very quickly with the fast .204 cartridge so when target shooting I have to set it aside after 3 or so shots to give it a chance to cool. The CZ's varmint barrels are slightly thicker so won't heat up as fast, but note they are a "medium" contour and not a true "heavy" barrel so will still heat up faster than barrels on Savages and Remingtons.

My Remington is slightly more accurate than my CZ. The fit & finish, for what it is, are also excellent. But here we are talking a dull "parkerized" finish on the metal and a rubbery (but extremely high quality) synthetic stock. To my eye, it will never win a beauty contest, but if you are into Semi-Evil Black Rifles it may be just your thing. And by virtue of its design, it is very heavy. I use it only for target shooting and couldn't imagine trying to shoot it from anything other than a bench rest or prone position, much less see myself carrying it around. Also, be careful to compare the models in the wide range of choices that make up the Remington 700 line. Some of them have great stocks -- some of them seem to be sold with the idea that the first thing the buyer will do is discard the factory stock and replace it with an aftermarket model.

I put the Savage somewhere just below my CZ in terms of finish quality and accuracy. I'm not a fan of laminated stocks so that may be part of it. But the Savage I shot was not quite as accurate as my CZ, and I much prefer the CZ trigger to the Savage's accutrigger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ok people.
First of all, thanks for your replies. You're so kind. Always ready with A LOT of info impossible to get there.

So, here's the matter. As already stated, i'm looking for the best quality for the bucks. That's why i moved from savage to CZ in my .22lr

Then, there's the .204 ruger... another calibre, another story... the CZs seems a little "light" for the target use i'd like to do, so that's why i'd look for the most full featured heavy barreled rifle. So the choice of Savage.
That was mostly confirmed by my previous post:
savage thread

Remington was on but always felt a little "commercial", then the Dog remmys shifted the balance to savagys...

So AT LEAST from what i heard/searched/read, the accuracy OTB IS there. What was my concern was the quality itself of the rifle (wood, bolt metal, durability, etc.)

now the prices: in italy the MSRP For savage 12 Varminter Low profile is 1.100 euros (!) and 1500+ for the Precision !
Remingtons: 700 VSSF II : 1.681€ , 700 Sps Varmint HB: 867€ ...

As you can see, these ain't cheap. at the top of the scale there's the Sako 85 at 2.200 €...
That's why, you can see that here imported rifles are EXPENSIVE. so one move, full motivated... that's all! :) :bthumb:

At this point the CZ, being european, stands with 800€ ~ with the 527.

BUT sadly the CZ and the 700sps have not all the features i'm looking (heavy fluted, free floating...)

i'm in a world of trouble :D
 

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Savage makes outstandingly accurate rifles at a budget price. The only downside is the (rumored) low quality of their synthetic stocks. Consider one of their LE or Varmint rifles in .223 instead. Possibly the 24" 10FP. The Cadillac in my opinion is the Tikka T3 Super Varmint. I have the Tikka topped by a Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical 6-24x50 sitting in 30mm Burris Extreme Tactical rings. It's an outstanding combination.

The rifles are about equal in accuracy, both have great adjustable triggers, the Tikka is just more refined and has a slicker bolt. With either you will want to invest in a Lucas Bore Guide and Tipton carbon Fiber or Dewey Coated cleaning rods. I prefer the Tipton.
 

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Only accurate rifles are interesting. Savage LRPV in .204 Ruger is as accurate, OOTB, as they come. Stock is H-S, not some no-name plastic stock. Still don't like it? Send it to Claude Gatewood. As he told me; "Plastic can be fixed. Accuracy- maybe not so much."
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hey all,
thanks for the infos but let me say we are a little going off direction...
SURE thanks for the accuracy points but as already stated, i already know the reputation for the savages. A LOT of reviews, gunblast and others searches points the accuracy of that savages HANDS DOWN, if not PANTS DOWN at all for the money, something i'm quite looking for, given the rifle prices here in italy.

I was asking more about the COMPONENTS QUALITY. In particular, the savage Model 12 Low Profile has everything i'm looking for.
BUT - how are built it's component? No loose parts? How is metal, durable, not having any problems from year to year (given appropriate gun care)...
These are my questions. That's because i'm not looking at the style or finishes, yes these are a plus but the CZ vs. Savage .22LR choice i made is an example. I've been told, that between those two accurate rimfires, i choose the better made.

Sooo finally i'm asking: IS the Savage model 12 WORTHY of the money spent in terms of build quality? Or there's another rifle out there with it's accuracy OTB, rich in features BUT BETTER MADE?

Thanks for your infos... you're great!

B.T.Way, a question: the Model 12 Thumbhole has the free floating barrel? Thanks!
 

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i've been buying only savage centerfires since the mid-90's. i have only had one that had any kind of problem. the medal work is ok. they are all free floating barrels. the accu-trigger is nice. not the best but very good. you can also rework it with factory parts that are in the gun when you buy it to get the trigger even lighter. the new style heavy bolt handles are much better than the old models. the only fall back to the .204 ruger is barrel life. as hot and fast as this rifle shoots they will burn the throats out fast. the up side to savage is the ease of buying a new barrel and replacing the old one. i've owned remington 700 pss's, senduro's, winchester model 70's(pre 64 and newer) ruger m77's, you name it i've had it. foreget anything with the rugger name on it but pistols. remington isn't the same company they used to be years ago. they are falling behind. pre 64 winchester 70's :t . buy the savage. you won't regret it. you'd have to buy the higher end rifles to meet savages shooting ability. i've had the chance to shoot several cz centerfires. they are nice. i'd say close to how accurate a savage is, but not qiute as accurate. the savage centerfires are made in america. the rimfires are made in canada. and if for some reason there is a problem with a savage they fix them. no questions asked.
 

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i've been buying only savage centerfires since the mid-90's. i have only had one that had any kind of problem. the medal work is ok. they are all free floating barrels. the accu-trigger is nice. not the best but very good. you can also rework it with factory parts that are in the gun when you buy it to get the trigger even lighter. the new style heavy bolt handles are much better than the old models. the only fall back to the .204 ruger is barrel life. as hot and fast as this rifle shoots they will burn the throats out fast. the up side to savage is the ease of buying a new barrel and replacing the old one. i've owned remington 700 pss's, senduro's, winchester model 70's(pre 64 and newer) ruger m77's, you name it i've had it. foreget anything with the rugger name on it but pistols. remington isn't the same company they used to be years ago. they are falling behind. pre 64 winchester 70's :t . buy the savage. you won't regret it. you'd have to buy the higher end rifles to meet savages shooting ability. i've had the chance to shoot several cz centerfires. they are nice. i'd say close to how accurate a savage is, but not qiute as accurate. the savage centerfires are made in america. the rimfires are made in canada. and if for some reason there is a problem with a savage they fix them. no questions asked.
The .204 Ruger was specifically designed to NOT burn out barrels, and I don't think any anecdotal evidence since it's introduction has proven otherwise. It has a fast projectile, yes, but that is not the only factor in barrel burning; total heat from the powder burned is a major factor in throat erosion. Note that the .204 Ruger uses much less powder when compared to, for instance a .243 Win., which actually has a much poorer projected barrel life than the .204.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks!

:yeahthat:
was what i was looking for. In fact, i was looking for some "go with it/don't go with it" knowing that after the purchase would be no regrets.

So problem is still the Floating barrel. as i can read from here:

http://www.savagearms.com/2008_pressrelease

Every rifle has the free floating feature listed, not the BTCSS...

Can anyone confirm if the BTCSS has the free floating or not??
 

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I'm a savage fan.

With that out of the way- considering the price difference of the savage vs rem... it's hard to recommend the savage considering the amount of money you can save on the rem.

Some love the accutrigger (I do) Some hate it. Fact is, an accutrigger is FAR better than a factory rem trigger, and many other brands as well. Many people throw out a factory trigger and replace it with a quality aftermarket. I like my accutrigger and dont need to waste money, but there are replacements available for it as well.

All savage centerfire's are based on the same action except the LRPV/f class 3 bolt action. The only differences on the model 10/12/110/112 etc... is a 3 digit is a long action, 2 digit is a short action- and then you have plastic/wood stock, heavy barrel, black or blue, or stainless.... etc.

A model 12 action is the same as my 10fp action. It's the stock and barrell and finish that are different. I've had no problems with mine except I used a threadlock adhesive on the accutrigger adjustment spring because it works itself loose over time. Everything else is 100% everytime.

The advantage of savage is that you can swap the barrel yourself. There are a number of high quality aftermarket barrel makers that sell drop in replacements. You can change the barrel and even change the caliber with a barrel swap and a new bolt head which is readily available. You pay for the barrel, a wrench, and headspace gauges, and keep the extra $200 you would pay a gunsmith to install a rem barrel.

A model 12 *should be* free float- if not, sand paper and a dowel will make it free float:bthumb:

I do think highly of Tikka so if you could pick one of them up for the same price as the rem, I say go for it. It's not easy to justify this price difference between the rem and savage, I think you'd be fine with the rem- if the prices were about equal like they are here in the US, it's savage all the way.

----edit-----

That particular model 12 is a little different action from my 10fp- My 10fp is the older style accu trigger with a blind magazine- (top feed only) that one has the removable magazine which is single stack as opposed to the older style stagger feed blind mag. Everything is *basically* the same, but the action screw spacing is different. The only thing to be aware of, is that most aftermarket stock manufacturers are not yet making stocks for the removable magazine models- except HS precision, mcmillan and a few smaller custom makers. Otherwise it is the same basic action/trigger- Should be free floated, but easy to fix yourself too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
I'm a savage fan.

With that out of the way- considering the price difference of the savage vs rem... it's hard to recommend the savage considering the amount of money you can save on the rem.
Well, no. Not quite, actually.
REMEMBER that i'm in ITALY and not in the US... prices are way different.
I'll link you directly to the price listing (MSRP) in Italy for Remingtons:

Remington Prices

Also, feel free to look at other rifles pricing. it's under the "LISTINO" tab, where FUCILI CANNA LISCIA means smoothbore, CANNA RIGATA means rifledbore. First go to "home" page of armietiro.it then select LISTINO in the upper green bar of the site.

AS you can see, a good varmint remington is always 1.500 + Euros, where a Savage stands for 1.100-1.200.

That's QUITE a lot, given the accuracy i've read about Savages. In short words, actually Remingtons are quite out of the picture for me.

Tikka rifles: OK here we have some fine shooters, but NOT SURE if .204 Ruger available in Italy. Have to ask. but some points are for the negative response, 1-can't find the T3 in .204 ruger in price listings and Italian Tikka T3 site, and 2-can't find the T3 in .204 in the national catalog of firearms, which is where EVERY AND EACH firearm is registered to the state police archives, so basically if it's not there - it's short of illegal...

I'll ask anyway, though...
 

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I was comparing the prices you listed for savage and rem 700 sps which is nearly 250 cheaper. Or I misunderstood the money conversions- 1,100eu for savage, and I thought 860 eu for the sps?

I'm not into varmint caliber rifles, sorry for the confusion about the Tikka. They have a very good reputation, and are not very expensive here in the US. I was not aware they arent made in the caliber you're looking for.
 

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As someone may know, i'm buying a CZ 452 Varmint as my .22LR shooter. I took the CZ over a Thumbhole Savage mainly because a lot of people pointed out the quality step up of the CZ (hardened bolt, better finishes, hammer forged barrel, etc).
I think the CZ is a bit better in quality than the Savage. However, I don't believe it reflects in better accuracy. Also you should be aware that a hammer forged barrel is not an indicator of quality. It takes about 3 minutes to make a hammer forged barrel. It is a process intended for high production (military), and not necessarily quality and accuracy. Check out this article if you want to learn about barrels.

http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/RifledBarrelManuf/BarrelManufacture.htm

Ron
 

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My .02:

I have a Savage 116FSS that I'm pretty happy with in .30-06. Not sure about the 12 series. The heavier barrel would be nice for accuracy I would imagine.

As for the .204 have you thought about a Thompson Center Encore Pro Hunter? It's a single shot, but it's pretty darn accurate. They come in several configurations: Stainless, blued, wood, plastic, camo, thumbhole, etc. I picked one up a few years ago and like it alot. Plus you can add a barrel pretty easy and it's like having a totally different gun. Good luck deciding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hi!
Thanks again for your replies.

For postal:
No, you are not wrong. I also noticed the -250€ of the Rem SPS varm, and it's kinda "strange exception" on the Rem line up. The other two Rem rifles i'd looking for are the VSF or VSSF II, but both of 'em stands at 1600+ euros, that is almost twice the SPS and this baffles me, not for just a little.
Another thing to consider is that here if i buy a .204 Ruger rifle, i have virtually zero resale power because it's not used in my country.
So, instead of taking a "base model" SPS (that's how it looks to me), i'd like to spend just a little more for a full featured savage that should stay with me forever...
Tikka should be a very good contendere here, but i have to see if .204 Ruger is available. Should not from my searches, maybe i'll ask to an arms dealer if he can dig more info.

For Ron:
Thanks for your interesting literature, very handy. Thanks! I know just a little about the barrel making methods, but based of your (RFC community) first hand experience, given that the accuracy of both savages and CZ in .22LR is very good, i just choose the better made rifle, that brought to me asking, with this thread, the same question even for centerfire savage. In .204 Ruger CZ doesn't have what i'm looking for, so that's why i'm asking for "rifle quality" outside the brands i know.

For RifleMan: Thanks for your feedback. I saw the Tommy but ifor me t's kinda far more oriented to it's purpouse - hunting. It's nice having a base for lots of barrels, but given the price of the barrel i'll get it to around 1.500 € and sincerely i'd rather go for a classic bolt action with magazine than a rifle like that...
Thanks however for the hint, it's a nice rifle to consider in other times.

So, i'm keeping my eyes open... I'd like to see a Savage in my hands to make a comparison and check with other rifles... maybe sometime i'll get the opportunity... Thanks people!
 
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