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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I bought a couple hundred rounds of Remington Target to compare with Win. T22s last week. And while the Remington std. velocity was OK...it was certainly not as sharp out of my 504 as the same round from Winchester. I also noticed that the Remington bullets were loose enough in the casing to be turned by hand...as compared to the Winchesters that were quite snug. I also found this to be consistent with an old brick of Golden Bullets that I had stashed.

My question is...does the bullet being loose in the casing have any effect on accuracy? And, why would Remington choose such a practice? I'm sure someone out there has wondered before...and knows the answer! This might be a better thread for the ammo forum, but I know many of you with particular guns have tried every conceivable ammo available. So...I'm asking here!

Best to you all,
6Bucks
 

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Rem. .22 ammo

Can't tell you about the loose bullet condition but I shoot primarily Remington rifles and none of them shoot Remington Ammo "worth a hoot" (not supposed to cuss in this forum). For sporting ammo, Federal Classics seem the most consistant in "most" of my rifles but I won't buy Federals of any kind since they dropped 900 and 1000 series target ammo (not supposed to cuss again :1t ).
 

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I coached a small bore rifle team 25 years ago.Remington Target ammo was provided by the Army.It performed very well,in the years since my experience with Remington rimfire ammo has been almost entirely bad.Bad to the point that I don't buy it anymore.A thread ran on RFC about worst ammo ever,I did not post on it,but Remington Thunderbolts get the prize from me.After 30 or so rounds of it my S&W Kit Gun was keyholing at 25 yds.The bore looked like a sewer pipe,I brushed the lead out onto my powder scale pan and weighed it.My shooting pal recieved a brick of it as a gift,the box I used was from that brick,his Colt Woodsman faired the same as mine did.He sent what was left back to Remington,the reply was that it was found to be within specs.They included a check for forty dollars,a lot more than the ammo and shipping cost him.I use Remington centerfire pistol ammunition and shotgun shells with complete satisfaction,why the rimfire ammo is of such poor quality is a mystery.
 

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Remington ammo

I'll echo boley's evaluation of Reminton centerfire ammo. I've used their 9mm and .300 H&H in recent years with no fouling and very good accuracy for factory ammo. My .300 H&H model 721 will shoot 3/4" groups @ 100 yds with 180 gr. Rem. factory stuff and I was about to throw my Taurus 99 away until I tried Rem. in it.
I don't recall using Thunderbolt in anything or having fouling problems with any other rimfire Remington but accuracy sure sucks, including the different Remington Ely varieties. When I said Federal Classic shot good in my earlier reply, I meant for a "sporting" ammo it shot good. Several target cartidges shoot better, but then they also cost more. For a relatively inexpensive target ammo, Wolf Match Target (some lot #s) seems to do well in most of the guns I've tried it in. Right now, Lot # 222/38 is looking good. Lapua Master L does good in a couple of guns but Midas M or L doesn't (also cost $13.75/box, ouch!).
As for shotgun shells, my shotguns have been gathering dust for several years except for a Model 12 Win. that my son-in-law borrowed for some trap shooting until he found his own at Cabela's last year. Win. AA was ammo of choice there.
 

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Defective Rem. Ammo.

I stoped using Rem. ammo 15 years ago after my friends Rem. 1187 blew apart with Rem. steel shot load. That same period of time I was plinking with Rem. BB caps in my 514 and one went of with the same power and report as a long rifle shell. Thats no big deal in a 514, but I also was shooting these Rem. BB caps in my 1870's S&W model 1 third issue; that could be a big deal. I also have had problems with Remingtons steel shot in the early days of there production. These days I never buy Rem ammo. To bad because I grew up using Sure Shot and Cleanbore ammo. Bob.
 

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I don't know why Remington bullets are loose. All the best target ammo bullets are NOT! Would you handload ammo with loose bullets, I think not.

Remington rimfire ammo exists only because most people can't tell the difference and because it may be the only ammo available where people shop. I use Winchester Power Points for hunting, Winchester Dynapoints for 50' gallery shooting, and for plinking, sometimes use Win. Wildcats, but they are usually dirtier shooting.

The consensus on many boards is that Federal Hi-Speed bulk ammo is the most consistent. I haven't found that to be true in my rifles, but have to believe that it's good when so many good shooters say so.

CCI Standard Velocity has been quite consistent in my rifles. A couple of batches of CCI SGB shoots unbelievable groups in my son's accurized Rem 581. Other batches I've tried haven't been as good.

The best advice I can give is to test various batches of many different kinds of .22 ammo and when you find a batch that shoots great in your rifle, mortgage the farm and buy all you can of that same lot number.

John
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
John....I concur, and recently bought the entire lot of some Winchester T22s from a dealer that were performing with remarkable consistency from my 504 and Browning T-Bolt.

But the real question would be why Remington ammo appears to come with so many shortcuts...like the loose-fitting bullets...much of what I've shot in the past is filthy...and evidently the rim thickness is not very consistent because the extractor in some guns just can't hold onto it. That's all I can figure.

Now I've heard that their new .22 mag rounds are quite good. I haven't had the opportunity yet, but plan on sighting in a Leupold scope on my Legacy magnum with some of that ammo.

And John...keep preaching the gospel about the 504 because I, like you, have found it to be a good shooting gun and would like to see the company keep it in its line for some time...with improvements. I have not bedded mine, but did take the action out and sanded the channel in the stock to where there were no bad pressure points. It showed significant improvement when I did. The rifle fixed a cat-in-the-garbage problem the other night at 60 yards...toot sweet! That's all the thanks I needed for buying it!

Best shooting,
6Bucks
 

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6Bucks:

Yep, the 504 is my favorite rimfire bolt-action sporter of all time. I was shooting it last weekend at 50 yards, both offhand and benchrest and it continues to satisfy. For offhand shooting, I'd like a little heavier barrel, but I'm a pretty big guy and like a little more weight up front. The Ruger 10-22 bull barreled rifles work just right, but are a bit heavy for carrying a lot.

Maybe I'll end up with a Lilja on it before long. I want to try hunting squirrels with it first. Maybe walking with the lighter gun will take precedence over offhand steadiness. It sure carries well.

It does shoot very well, as good or better than any 541T I've seen. Can't make a direct comparison with the 541S, since I've never seen one shoot 50 yard groups.

John
 

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grrr

I will no longer be buying remington .22lr ammunition. I bought a brick of CCI mini-mags and one of remington cyclones at the same time. I went practicing and while shooting 5 shot groups at 25 and 50 yards the remington SUCKED, i couldnt have hit a coffee cup with less than ten shots at fifty and a golf ball would be a stretch at 25. The minimags on the other hand could hit a golf ball at 50 yards consistently. I dont care if the minimags cost a few bucks a brick more thats all im shooting from now on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Picher and Jseime...

And yet, while I've shot some CCI that was sufficiently accurate, it doesn't eject well in several of my guns. It's maddening...the inconsistencies that are inherent with rimfire ammunition.

Funny thing...when I was shooting a lot of registered shotgun targets I shot Remington Premier shotgun ammo for years. It was a very good round, propelled with DuPont, and then what became IMR powder...principally 700x, I think! Smelled like it, anyway.

You talked about hitting a teacup...I could not achieve POA on any part of the black (let alone the X ring) with those stiff paper Outers targets...the ones that have 11 targets on a sheet...from 30 yards! Switching to T22s, I put three rounds in a .3 in hole.

John (Picher), I really don't mind the light profile barrel on the 504, because it really does balance well with that Boyd stock that came with it. But I wonder...how much better I might like one of the custom shop models that have the 24 in. barrel, like some of my other favorite .22s? It's a shame that you cannot see a 504 custom "try" gun at a Remington dealer. I guess it would be a different story if I were buying one to look at...but I'd want to shoot it. For that reason, I think a "pig in the poke" is a bit much at $1,600!

6Bucks
 

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6bucks: I agree that the custom 504 is a bit much, but you can buy a barrel for the 504 from Lilja for only about $300. Lead could be added to the forend to make it a bit heavier. I've done it and it works pretty well.

Butch Hongisto might also have a barrel he could set up for the 504 for around $200 and he'd contour it to whatever shape I'd want. I have a take-off Lilja that he made up for my Rem 581 that shoots great. The breech end is a few thousanths smaller than the receiver and it straight-tapers to .600" at 20 inches.

Gotta wait until the new house is finished before buying any more guns/scopes/barrels, etc.

John


Barrels are slip-in, though I'd Locktite them too.
 

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T22 by Winchester is VERY underated

I still have an old Gun Digest book of the 22 Rimfire, and in it, John Lachuk made the comment way back in the mid 1970's that Winchester T-22 is some of the most accurate, overall, standard velocity ammo available. I tried it in the 1980's and again, just recently last weekend, and yes, he is right. It was by far, more accurate than about 5 other types of 22 rimfire that I had on hand at the time. It is also pretty reasonable in price. Contrast that to some Remington "Peters" brand that I bought about 10 years ago, which had SO MANY MISFIRES that I absolutely gave up on it, and was so irritated that I had wrote Remington a letter and also called them. They had me send the ammo back to the factory and then gave me a coupon for some FREE remington ammo. I threw the coupon away! The peters ammo had given me nearly 20 "misfires" just out of one box of 50 cartridges! EVERY OTHER BRAND tested in that gun, that same day, gave me NO MISFIRES!
So much for Peters brand! Anyhow, having said that, I will also say that in the past, I had found Remington Yellow Jacket Hyper Velocity to be very good indeed, and much more accurate in most of my guns than CCI Stinger. These days, I usually go with CCI ammo or Winchester's "normal" line of ammo like T22 or Power Point. I pretty much avoid the Bargain basement stuff.
 

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6bucks: I'm thinking that instead of getting a heavier barrel to add forward weight balance, I may just buy a Hohen tuner. It may also help the accuracy and would be cheaper than a new barrel. The good thing is that I could take it off when I wanted to.

John
 

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I recall the Lachuk article,and how he bought a case of the particular lot number of T22 that perfomed so well for him.30 years later I still buy it from time to time,I have a fresh brick now.It's been pretty much average for me,guess I never found a majic lot of it.Back to Remington,with all their resources and experience at rimfire ammunition making,why the product they offer today is not top quality defies logic.Were I a stockholder,I would ask the board members about why we on RFC think so little of the rimfire ammunition sold by Remington,and favor other makers,some foreign.No excuse comes to mind.
 

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boley,

The management or shareholers don't care about quality because they sell enough of the market share with a mediocre product. Most of the shareholders have no idea what's going on and don't care, only if their stock pays a dividend each quarter. And they don't care about 2 years or 5 years down the road, only what happens this quarter.

As to T22... I agree with you. I haven't seen anyone use it or Remington Target in competition for years, but 20 or 30 years ago they didn't have the sales competition in the U.S. they have today. No Fiocchi, Wolf, RWS, Lapua or very little Ely in those days. Still mad at Federal :mad: :mad: :mad: !!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
To Coloradogeezer, Picher and others...

Geezer...
I appreciated reading your thoughts on the T22s...principally because of the number of shooting friends that I know that won't shoot it because it's cheap. We all know high-brows who believe that it has to cost like Wolf, Eley and Aguila to perform. And frankly, it's hard to explain why it is as good as it is for as little as it costs to shoot it. Sometimes you wonder if you're the only person who has an experience of having success with something sounexpectedly inexpensive?

Picher...appreciate your comments about the Lilja barrels on 504s, but isn't what we really want the satisfaction of knowing that the gun shoots the way you want right from the Remington factory? Every complaint about that rifle on this forum has centered around how it won't shoot out of the box...not the touch-ups that you can do to make it shoot better. Everyone loves to tinker with their guns! As for the custom shop guns...how tough would it be for a dealer to stock one? Let's face it, that's a pretty good sum to ask for a gun sight-unseen that you hope you're going to like after putting 50% down and waiting 9 months. It's almost worse than having a baby!
 

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Rem ammo

As a quick little test today, I weighed a box of new Remington HV HP .22s (the only new Rem. .22s I had on hand).They varied 2.4 grains from the lightest @ 48.9 gr. to the heaviest @ 51.2 gr.
If anyone has any questions about why their accuracy is a problem, that should be a good indication. Some of the bullets were loose and some tight. For comparison, even relatively inexpensive target ammo like Fiochhi SM320 varies about .9 gr and Wolf MT is about .6 gr. and even that stuff needs to be sorted by weight to work for a match. I've seen no indication of loose bullets in either.
 

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R.B.

Glad someone is having good luck. I'd be curious how close they weigh. If you could run them across a powder scale, I'd like to hear from you. Also the Hornadays are probably a lot better quality bullet. I haven't figured out yet where the variation in weight is coming from, but approx. 5% sounds like a lot to me.
 

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Darnet to heck grandparem, I dont have a scale to weigh a cartridge on but thankx to you :) :) I guess Ill just have to go about buying one darnit :) :) . Oh heck, the electric company has a hell of a lot more money than I do so they can wait until after I buy a scale.
Any suggestions anyone?? After I get a scale and weigh a bunch of cartridges,Ill be happy to post the results.
Thanks grandparem!!!!
 
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