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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Starting with a post-ban semi-auto receiver, add a thumbhole stock, then add a threaded barrel for a muzzle brake.
Illegal gun?

I've noticed thumbhole stocks seem to be growing in popularity, and according to a catalog they have been reclassified as one of those "evil things" like folding stocks. This precludes the use of a threaded barrel for a muzzle brake with this stock style, right?
How about if the brake is held on with a set screw?
Seeing a post on adding a muzzle brake to an existing barrel got me thinking.....

Take care,
warren
 

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obx22,

This is MY Opinion: NOT a Legal Interpretation.......! !

Depending upon where you are located, the "thumbhole stock" may or may not be an "evil feature"; the 1994 Assault Weapons ban states: [ see (2) ]
2. A semiautomatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -
(1) a folding or telescopic stock;
(2) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(3) a bayonet mount;
(4) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
(5) a grenade launcher;
The ".....add a threaded barrel for a muzzle brake" could put you 'over the edge'.......... :(
How about if the brake is held on with a set screw?
NO, a "set screw" does NOT qualify as PERMANENT.....! !
[PERMANENT = integral, welded, brazed, or 'blind' pinned*.......]
( * blind pinned = pin driven into a blind hole )

NOTE:
If you have a gun made before September 14, 1994 (pre-ban), you are able to have as many of the dangers on it as you would like legally. The caveat is that the gun has to have been in an "assault weapon" configuration on or before the ban took place.
Hope this helps........ ;)
 

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As you can see from BigMike's post, if the 'semi-auto receiver' in question doesn't accept a detachable mag (ie - its tube fed) you'll be OK.

As for the stock, all of the laws I have read point the finger of evil at pistol grips that protrude below the butt rest of the gun. The reason for this is that in every single movie I have ever seen the people who shoot up the streets use rifles that have protruding pistol grips, excepting for cowboy movies. I watched Heat last night and this was especially true.

Anyway, I've not seen any laws that include thumbhole stocks as assault weapon features. If anyone is aware of one I'd like to read it, or any cases that indicate that a thumbhole is an assault weapon feature.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks guys,
I was hoping we were not giving bad(Illegal)advice.
I believe it was in a catalog from Midway, their 10/22 section had warnings concerning thumbhole stocks and their use with other products(certain barrels). I just checked their website and could find no warning.
I think the concern came about because AR stocks became available with a rod connecting the toe of the stock with the base of the pistolgrip(changing it to a thumbhole by definition). Coarse I've been wrong before.....
Take care,
warren
 

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I designed a thumbhole stock for the AR15 a couple of years before the assualt weapons ban took place and thought because it did away with the pistol grip on the rifle it would make it legal.
JP Enterprises now owns the stock design and markets the stocks. John from JP informed me that ATF had ruled that the stock did nothing to change the design of the AR 15 since it was designed from its inception as a "pistol grip" rifle. According to their interpretation of the law you can do nothing to the AR that will take that design feature away. Since the 10/22 was not designed as a pistol grip firearm, under their interpretation of the law, it should not be a problem to put a thumbhole stock on any 10/22. PLEASE NOTE: I SAID SHOULD NOT. DO NOT TAKE THAT AS FACT SINCE I AM NOT THE ATF.
 

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Also with disclaimers out the Wazzoo...All of the "Evil Assault Weapon" laws that I've read recently do specificly mention that they only apply to centerfires. But don't expect a lawyer or a judge to take my word for it.
 

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Vibe etal,
All of the "Evil Assault Weapon" laws that I've read recently do specificly mention that they only apply to centerfires.
Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as -
(7) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC DC-9, and TEC-22 and
[Bold added by BigMike]
Any gun manufactured or built after September 14, 1994 (post-ban) can only have up to 2 of these dangers on it.
[Bold added by BigMike]

I wish I still had the 'actual text' of the Law 'as passed', but, that went with my crashed hard drive......... :mad:

Anyone have a Link to the 'actual text' of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban......? ?
 

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BigMike said:
obx22,

This is MY Opinion: NOT a Legal Interpretation.......! !

Depending upon where you are located, the "thumbhole stock" may or may not be an "evil feature"; the 1994 Assault Weapons ban states: [ see (2) ]
The ".....add a threaded barrel for a muzzle brake" could put you 'over the edge'.......... :(

NO, a "set screw" does NOT qualify as PERMANENT.....! !
[PERMANENT = integral, welded, brazed, or 'blind' pinned*.......]
( * blind pinned = pin driven into a blind hole )

NOTE: Set screw type extensions were legal prior to 1986. Many set screw held barrel extensions were sold for the Thompson- Center Contender 14" bull barrel pistol and other such pistols so a rifle stock could be legally added. I still have a 1985 "L.L. Baston" catalog that advertises set screw flash hiders and muzzel brakes sold for such purpose. I also believe it's legal to have a rifle with a barrel under 16" IF it has any type of flash hider or muzzle device that brings the total length OVER the legal minimum of 16" even if not welded on IF such conversion was legally done prior to 1986 when the current BATF "regulation" requiring permanent attachment (welding, silver solder or blind pin) was adopted. I believe the Constitution still prohibits ex post facto laws.

Hope this helps........ ;)
 

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QUESTION: Are we saying that all the thumbhole stocks that are offered for the 10/22 are not legal.
Examples, Boyds> Blaster, Ross Thumbhole, Smart Stock, Varmint Thumbhole. If this is the case then there are a lot of us are in deep Doggie Doo. :mad: Bill
 

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REDTIP17 said:
QUESTION: Are we saying that all the thumbhole stocks that are offered for the 10/22 are not legal.
No, no, Bill, not at all. You just can't add a threaded muzzle, flash suppressor, grenade launcher, or folding stock so long as it is on the gun.
 

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Keith,
1. Don't want a folding thumb hole Stock. :(
2. Don't need bayonet, "He gonna get that **** close". :mad:
3. No need for flash supressor, "He ain't gonna see it coming anyway":cool:
4. Grenade Launcher: Ha, I can throw one farther that a .22 would anyway. :eek:
Well, I guess I'm Legal. Bill
 

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The wording of the law is:
`a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accomodate a flash suppressor;

So, if the thread pattern will fit any commercially made flash suppressor (for instance 1/2x28), then the answer would be yes. If it is a proprietary pattern, then no.
 

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The many posts and threads relative to this subject over time is verification of the ambiguity that exist on the subject. My advise is to error on the side of caution......unless you have a law degree and the time & $$ to flirt with it.......it's a bad gamble.
Caution:Reminder
It's the policy of RFC not to give legal advice. Anything discerned here is clearly opinion and therfore subjective. The opinions here are always offered in good faith, very conscientious and educated but nevertheless are opinions. If you need something definitive best to contact the appropriate agency.

Mike
 

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Well the last time I checked Volquartsen is not in the habit of selling illegal guns, and since they sell pre built rifles the have both a thumbhole stock and a barrel with a threaded on comp I would belive that the combo would be legal. If I were you I would email them and ask for their opinion on the matter since they are a mfg and must have ATF aproval for what they sell.

Solophenix
 

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Solophenix said:
If I were you I would email them and ask for their opinion on the matter since they are a mfg and must have ATF aproval for what they sell.
What a coincidink, I'm a manufacturer as well. :cool:

You'll also note I never said their stuff wasn't legal. I just noted the conditions that would make it not so.
 

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I did not mean their individual items such as just the barrel or just the stock. I was referring to the "pre built" rifles that are shipped to you with both a thumb-hole stock and a threaded barrel installed. I believe that the threads Volquartsen uses are 1/2 x 20 unc. This is a standard thread the you can get flash suppressors for. I agree that the laws are very hard to interpret and was just suggestion that he ask Vol. directly about the legality of the rifles. As a mfg you know that if Vol was selling illegally built rifles the BATFE would be all over them just like they are currently with Century.
 

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Are those Volq. barrels threaded at the muzle or just threaded into the receiver? I kind of thought that the Volq. barrels that were ported were just a 1 1/2" longer barrel that have ports. I'm not sure on it so I guess this whole post is really a question and not just pointing out any facts that I am sure of. I know that they are threaded into the receiver though. It doesnt seem like they would make it that easy for anyone to put another comp on their barrels. Just my thoughts on it.


1drboy
 
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