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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been reading posts here for awhile now and am still confused about the law pertaining to preban weapons. It has been stated in previous posts that the authorities can tell if your rifle stock is preban or post. How? This didn't make sense to me because there are stocks that are folding with pistol grip and they have no dates or markings on them at all and they are the same before and after the ban date. This leads me to believe that a folding pistol grip stock is nothing more than a gun part and can only be put on a pre ban gun that has already met the requirements of a semi auto assualt weapon. But how do you know if the pre ban gun is already classified as assualt weapon? According to the posts, if you have all the parts laying around to build a AR then that rifle is to be deemed a AR. So if I have a pre ban 10/22 in its orginal stock and I also have other gun parts that make this gun a AR, then the gun is then said it can be converted and is a AR. All this is leagal and ok, as long as everything was owned before the ban. But there is no way of proving this because none of the gun parts have any numbers or anything on them to indicate that they were purchased before the ban. How can a person tell if parts were made before the ban? Parts are parts, before or after, thier the same. If I have lots of parts and then bring a pre ban gun into my house then that gun is classified as a assualt weapon because I have everything to make it that way.? I can say, no, this gun never had a folding stock put on it... it is pre ban manufacture but has not had any of these parts put on it. They can say that just because the gun has the factory stock on it don't mean that it is not a AR because you own all these parts that could of , or could not of, been on the gun. If I have a pre ban gun that had all the AR parts on it before the ban date and I want to take all the parts off and make it factory orginal again, than this is leagal to do according to the posts. BUT, the gun is still a AR, even though you can't tell it by looking at it, just because you still have the parts. So by owning parts and bringing another different pre ban gun into your house how are you to keep from being accused of making a AR. How are you to know if the previous owner of this pre ban date factory stock rifle also has a bunch of parts at his house and had the parts on the gun before the pre ban date? I love Ruger 10/22's and have owned several of them over the years. I also have lots of the so called pre ban parts and high capacity magazines. I buy and sell different guns all the time and I don't want to get in trouble with the law and want to keep everything leagal. But if I understand it right, I can be accused of doing something wrong by just having these parts and guns. I have read in one of the posts that the burden of proof is on the owner. This is bull. Not I or anyone else can look at the parts and say these were made at a certain date. Or can anyone pick up a factory stock rifle with a pre ban serial number and say "This is a semi auto assualt weapon" unless they can see into the past where 13 gun owners ago in 1973 old Jim had put a folding stock on this gun and then sold it to Fred who took it off in 1997. Can anyone help clarify this mess? Thankyou.
 

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Assault Weapons Ban

quincy,
I have read in one of the posts that the burden of proof is on the owner. This is bull. Not I or anyone else can look at the parts and say these were made at a certain date.
You are partially correct, BUT, YOU have the burden of proof to show it WAS an Assault Weapon prior to 9/14/94.

If you can't, you had better NOT own it.....! ! :eek:

IF you own a Pre-Ban 10/22 rifle, the rifle's ship date maybe determined from the serial number on the receiver. To the best of my knowledge, no folding stocks have been made [for sale in the US] since the ban; therefore, all "legal" folding stocks are Pre-Ban. Now, if you put the Pre-Ban 10/22 into that Pre-Ban folding stock, you had better have a Bill of Sale dated before 9/14/94 for that folder....! ! :eek:

Assault Weapons Ban [full text]

Hey, I don't write these Laws.....! ! :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thankyou for the info BigMike. I am not trying to break the law or do anything illegal by any means. I'm asking because I don't want any trouble with the law. To the best of my knoledge Ruger never made a 10/22 assault weapon. I remember when I would buy ruger 10/22's and the buy all the after market goodies to dress them up. I go to the gun shows alot and I don't remember seeing alot of all decked out 10/22 rifles for sale. You would see one hear and there but mostly people sold the factory stock guns. I myself have sold guns but I kept all the assessories and would put the gun back to its factory state. Therefore you end up having all kinds of aftermarket add ons and a few guns you kept because they shot good. I just don't know how anybody would prove that the gun they own was in the assembled assault weapon state before the ban date when they bought all the add ons from different merchants over the years. Showing the receipts from all the purchased goods still dosen't prove that the goods was all assembled togeather before 11/14/94, it would just show that all the parts were pre-ban and thats it. In the #25 post it states that just having all the parts togeather constitutes that it is a assualt weapon wheather they are assembled or not. Since it is legal to sell weapons between individuals in my state and guns cross so many hands it is virtually impossible to know if some of the guns out there were assembled as a AR before or after the ban so I'm still confused as to how you could prove that any weapon is a TRUE pre-ban gun. The stupid laws don't clarify this to the extent that it needs to be. I think I will call the local sheriff office and ask them what thier concerns are about this matter.
 

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BATF Law

quincy,

A few things to remember:

0 In most Criminal Law, Intent is part of the law...! !
0 You are innocent until proven guilty...! !

0 In the BATF Law and Regulations, Intent is NOT part of the Law:
___1. A mere "typo" can get you convicted of a crime...! ! :eek:
___2. Having a "part" can get you convicted of a crime...! ! :eek:
___3. You are guilty until proven innocent...! ! :eek:
___4. Regarding Assault Weapons, YOU must Prove it was an Assault Weapon before the AWB...! ! :eek: :eek:
I think I will call the local sheriff office and ask them what their concerns are about this matter.
Forget the Sheriff; chances are, you know more than he does...! ! :confused: :(

Contact the BATF directly, and get you answer in writing...! !

BATF < < Link

Good Luck...! ! ;)
 

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Folding Stocks

M12,

I believe that all "folders" made for sale within the US must have a 'pin' [or weld] so that they may not be 'folded'...! !

Drilling that 'pin' out makes it a true folding stock; now, if you put that on any semi-auto that did not have a folding stock before the AWB, you have created a new Assault Weapon. The AWB forbids the manufacture, conversion, or importation of any new Assault Weapons...! ! :eek:

Today, a true folding stock may ONLY be put on a weapon that already had a folding stock before the AWB; in other words, a replacment for an existing, legal, folding stock. Anyone contemplating this better have their documentation [proof] in order, as the BATF can tell pre-ban "folders" from post-ban "folders"...! ! :eek:
 

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I think if you had the receiver prior to the ban, you are OK. if the receiver was made in say '86, then you sold it to another party, using an FFL for the transfer, after the 94 ban, that person cannot put a folder on it because they didn't own it before the ban. I don't think you need a dated receipt for the stock, or a notorized photo of you holding the gun prior to 94. Who would have kept the receilt for the stock if they put the gun together before the bill was written? If you built a folder back in '88 lets say. Laws may differ if you live in CA or something, and I am no lawyer.
 

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the problem is, you may have a pre-ban rifle, and it may be totally legal, but the burden of proof is going to lie with the person who is in possession of this rifle when questioned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Lets say todays date is 4/11/86. You go to a gun show and you find a 10/22 all decked out with a Ramline pistol grip folding stock, a flash suppressor and ventilated handguard made by Eagle Inc., a 30 round magazine made by Butler Creek, and a lasor mounted under the barrel. You ask the guy how much and he says he will sell it for $300.00. You buy it and bring it home and lock it in the gun cabinet.

Now it is 2003. The only thing you have for the purchase of this gun is a receipt. The receipt has the date, the make of gun, and the serial number for the gun. The BATF knocks on your door and comes into your house and looks at your guns and picks up the Ruger 10/22 and says "prove to me that this gun was a assembeled assualt rifle prior to 11/14/94. You give them the receipt and they call the gun dealer who you bought this gun from in 1986. IF the gun dealer is still living and still in business, the chances of him remembering this paticular gun and sale 17 years ago is about like holding a winning lottery ticket. Not many dealers, prior to the ban, would of taken the time to write all the assesories down on the receipt. Now what do we do?

According to BigMike, we should get rid of our perfectly legal guns because of the "Burden of Proof" clause.

" You are partially correct, BUT, YOU have the burden of proof to show it WAS an Assault Weapon prior to 9/14/94."

"If you can't, you had better NOT own it.....!"

This is not fair and can't be right. I'm sure there are thousands, if not millons, of gun owners out there in the same boat. We need to address this problem and find out what we need to do to protect ourselves and be legal.
 

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I'm not convinced that there's any way to tell a pre-94 folding stock from a post-94 folding stock. Not that it matters anyway. A pre-94 folding stock on a pre-94 receiver is still illegal if the receiver wasn't in "assault weapon" configuration in Sept. 1994, and a post-94 stock is legal on a receiver that was.

The receiver has to have been in "assault weapon" configuration in Sept. 1994 to be a pre-ban. That is, it had to be a semi-auto with detachable magazine, and at least two of: folding/telescoping stock, pistol grip, flash hider, bayonet lug, grenade launcher.

The question is: how do you prove that it was. For something like an AR-15 that left the factory in AW config, that's easy because the manufacturer has a record of it. For something like a 10/22 that wasn't an AW when it left the factory, it gets a little harder. I have not seen anyone give a conclusive answer to this.

As for having all the parts, but not assembled, I know that the ATF says they consider that to be the same as having an assembled weapon when it comes to a machine gun. I don't think that applies to assault weapons.
 

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Wait till 9/15/2004 and it should be a moot point as the law died the day before. I do not think the Republicans will be stupid enough to renew the law as they must know what will happen at the pols 2 months later.


Remember to remind them in writing about this.
 

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It will go away in a year and a half unless it gets renewed or replaced. The good news is that most politicians would rather ignore it than be forced to take a position on it. The bad news is that there are some very anti-gun senators out there that will try to make it worse. And if it makes it to Bush's desk he'll probably sign it.

Be sure to check out www.awbansunset.com.
 
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