Played with Kidd classic rifle at long distance PRS matches and it can't cut it.

2715 Views 64 Replies 21 Participants Last post by docjon, 2 mo ago

docjon

Discussion Starter · 4 mo ago

Hello,
I had hopes for this kidd at PRS matches but not going to do it. It loves SK red box, half inch groups at 50 and 1.2inch at 100yds. Its great for 100 and in but much past 150 it can't hang with the bolt guys. I know I will here that it can but I have watched it first hand and like i said great for 100 and in and thats it. So its has to go. I love the gun and it a great shooter but it just not as consistent longer ranges. I always wanted one to try and I gave it a fair shake but my bergara b14r outshoots it at any distance. .

Thanks
Jon

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docjon

Discussion Starter · #41 · 3 mo ago

Update:
Well I didn’t do the vudoo because I’m not giving up on this Kidd! I did try some eley benchrest precision and looked promising at 50 with.3-.4 groups but at 100 opened up to about 2”. Same thing with some federal gold medal match great at 50 not so great at 100. So far the sk red box and sk long range doing the best at distance. Red box a little more consistent but so much slower than all the others. I thought about trying a chassis but I really like the titan. I had tried a krg bravo in the past and didn’t like it as much as the titan. I also tried some eley benchrest outlaw it’s wasn’t good at all. I also tried again the eley tenex and match but doesn’t feed reliable enough for matches. Also, tried eley club,Norma tac, and match no good. I will keep trying. Thinking of trying some sk pistol next.

Thanks
Jon

I tried 2 different lots with the eley benchrest precision. both under 1/2” at 50. Lots ending with 126 and 291

Reactions: 2

PWNolan

· #42 · 3 mo ago

I haven't shot PRS for awhile but when I did I saw two different guys do quite well with Kidd builds. I'm not sure if they actually came from Kidd as built rifles or they were build from Kidd components but both said they were Kidd's. The one guy was a veteran shooter and doesn't seem to be hindered by lock time or any other issues that shooting a semi-auto is supposed to have. The other guy was a brand new shooter did better than I did with a bolt-action and I was on my fourth or fifth match (I know...I must've sucked haha)

I'm a bolt-action guy by far but I recently did a Kidd build with PRS in mind but havent taken the opportunity to shoot it in a long range match. So far it shoots really well at 50 yds. There's no reason it shouldn't do well at longer distances

Reactions: 1

MajorD

· #43 · 3 mo ago

I have been shooting competitively for a long time ( since late 1970’s) in various disciplines and have only been doing nrl22 for the last few years. Inside 300 a Kidd can definitely hold its own ( one of our local top shooters uses one, and beats almost everyone) while bolt guns do have a SLIGHT accuracy edge mechanically, beyond about 150 reading wind, correcting for atmospheric conditions building a steady firing position and having good ammo all make a lot more difference than the type of rifle used.
to put it another way the top shooters would still be top shooters if they ran a match with my Kidd, because they have the above little details mentioned down to a science ( or is it an art?).
give me the best gear on earth, and my inability to read and adjust for wind, poor position building skills etc, will result in minimal difference in my performance.

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docjon

Discussion Starter · #44 · 3 mo ago

MajorD said:
I have been shooting competitively for a long time ( since late 1970’s) in various disciplines and have only been doing nrl22 for the last few years. Inside 300 a Kidd can definitely hold its own ( one of our local top shooters uses one, and beats almost everyone) while bolt guns do have a SLIGHT accuracy edge mechanically, beyond about 150 reading wind, correcting for atmospheric conditions building a steady firing position and having good ammo all make a lot more difference than the type of rifle used.
to put it another way the top shooters would still be top shooters if they ran a match with my Kidd, because they have the above little details mentioned down to a science ( or is it an art?).
give me the best gear on earth, and my inability to read and adjust for wind, poor position building skills etc, will result in minimal difference in my performance.

I totally agree and I’m fairly new to prs under a year and learning more each match. I’ve been practicing with it more and working on building positions and trying to read wind better. It’s getting better and I’m going to shoot a couple of matches this month with it. I plan on shooting it all year at our matches. I hope I can improve cause I really like the rifle and enjoy shooting it. I was joking at last match about how bad I was hurting and said maybe I should try benchrest. All the awkward positions is hard on my 2 ruptured discs and a knee with no ACL. I just like shooting steel not a paper shooting type guy.
Thanks
Jon

gcrank1

· #45 · 3 mo ago

I had to give up prone after a whiplash injury. I really dont miss it!
Been hearing more about some matches allowing alternate positions for 'those with issues'; its a good thing to keep people involved.

Reactions: 2

docjon

Discussion Starter · #46 · 3 mo ago

gcrank1 said:
I had to give up prone after a whiplash injury. I really dont miss it!
Been hearing more about some matches allowing alternate positions for 'those with issues'; its a good thing to keep people involved.

I’m at the point where it requires me to get in the rough positions, like on the knees and bent over at the same time, I just say miss and go onto a position I can shoot. I’m with you prone hurts and can’t hardly do it. That’s why I need to get good enough to hit the ones I can get in position for since I am dropping anywhere from 2 to 4 points a stage sometimes. A five gallon bucket is the worse. Lol

gcrank1

· #47 · 3 mo ago

If it hurts it aint fun
I do this for fun now
Works for me

Reactions: 1

docjon

Discussion Starter · #48 · 3 mo ago

TMW99577 said:
They make a .222, .223 and .22-250 for hitting targets past 100 yards.

I’m love my 22-250!

Reactions: 1

BadaBing11

· #49 · 3 mo ago

TXNimrod said:
That’s usually due to weather conditions - wind, mirage - which boils down to shooter experience/skill in doping conditions. Some have compared shooting a target .22 RF at 200 yards to shooting a target centerfire at 600+ yards. Not saying this is the OP’s issue, just answering the poster’s question.

Another cause could be minor bullet instability from being slightly cocked in the barrel or from a tiny piece of lead shaved off during feeding, causing a dynamic inbalance not noticeable at shorter distances. I didn’t see where the OP actually specified what his 200 yard targets looked like (flyers, shotgun patterns, keyholes) just the word inconsistent.

^^^^^^**^**This

check your magazines . I have only 3 of 8 that will feed all 10 rounds without bullet deformation . The good mags will give consistent < 0.25” at 50 yards indoors . If I put in one of the bad mags, 50 yard groups blow up to about 0.5”.

My Kidd shoots Eley semi auto bench rest very well at both 50 and 100. Sk Rifle match shoots equally well at 50 , but not as well as Eley SABR At 100.

Reactions: 1

docjon

Discussion Starter · #50 · 3 mo ago

2

BadaBing11 said:
^^^^^^**^**This

check your magazines . I have only 3 of 8 that will feed all 10 rounds without bullet deformation . The good mags will give consistent < 0.25” at 50 yards indoors . If I put in one of the bad mags, 50 yard groups blow up to about 0.5”.

My Kidd shoots Eley semi auto bench rest very well at both 50 and 100. Sk Rifle match shoots equally well at 50 , but not as well as Eley SABR At 100.

I have about 20 and have about 8 maybe nine that don’t have flyers. I’ve tried the eley sabr and it shot well but the lot that tested the best can’t find. I tried some Norma match and was really surprised on how it shot for me.

Plant Font Gas Rectangle Parallel

Circle Font Symmetry Art Pattern

That one flyer was me, I knew it when I squeezed the trigger. I’m not the best shot and I’m pretty happy with that. In fact I’m going to run it this month at my local matches and see how I and it performs more me than it. Lol
How often should I take the bolt out and clean it and receiver? I try to after about 300 rounds or so spray it and use toothbrush and q-tips to clean up the bolt face and receiver without taking it out of stock.
Thanks
Jon

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BadaBing11

· #51 · 3 mo ago

docjon said:
I have about 20 and have about 8 maybe nine that don’t have flyers. I’ve tried the eley sabr and it shot well but the lot that tested the best can’t find. I tried some Norma match and was really surprised on how it shot for me.
View attachment 371943

View attachment 371944
That one flyer was me, I knew it when I squeezed the trigger. I’m not the best shot and I’m pretty happy with that. In fact I’m going to run it this month at my local matches and see how I and it performs more me than it. Lol
How often should I take the bolt out and clean it and receiver? I try to after about 300 rounds or so spray it and use toothbrush and q-tips to clean up the bolt face and receiver without taking it out of stock.
Thanks
Jon

Cleaning practices vary greatly amongst shooters . I clean the chamber of my rifle after every outing . I dont Have a set time for removing the bolt and cleaning the receiver. But I’d estimate somewhere between 300 and 500 rounds . . I usually just do a visual on the bolt face and inside the receiver. If it looks bad, I clean it. I use Hornady One Shot to Lube the bolt . The rifle action stays clean much longer than when I use oil . Ymmv .

Reactions: 2

NETim

· #52 · 3 mo ago

BadaBing11 said:
^^^^^^**^**This

check your magazines . I have only 3 of 8 that will feed all 10 rounds without bullet deformation . The good mags will give consistent < 0.25” at 50 yards indoors . If I put in one of the bad mags, 50 yard groups blow up to about 0.5”.

My Kidd shoots Eley semi auto bench rest very well at both 50 and 100. Sk Rifle match shoots equally well at 50 , but not as well as Eley SABR At 100.

Interesting.

I assume that "bad" mags can be ID'ed by simply chambering a round and then ejecting it for inspection? Or is on target performance the only way to ID "bad" mags?

Probably best to run all 10 rounds through manually for inspection to see if damage is occurring on a particular in the sequence.

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BadaBing11

· #53 · 3 mo ago (Edited)

NETim said:
Interesting.

I assume that "bad" mags can be ID'ed by simply chambering a round and then ejecting it for inspection? Or is on target performance the only way to ID "bad" mags?

Probably best to run all 10 rounds through manually for inspection to see if damage is occurring on a particular in the sequence.

manually operating the bolt may not give the right indication of what is going on . I found the best way is to chamber a round, insert the mag and fire the gun . Then drop the mag and very slowly pull back the bolt to remove the chambered bullet .

I find that in a given mag, that most often the damage will occur on the same bullet each time … for example , you may see upon initial testing the first and sixth round show damage . In my experience, i Have seen that it is repeatable . A different mag may not be the same .

Maybe an easier way to screen is to chart flyers for each mag . You‘ ll likely find some mags give more fliers than others . Next check to see if it happens on the same sequence every time you reload . I have had mags that run all 10 badly. Most of my bad ones damage 2 or 3 bullets . Just enough to ruin a good five shot group.

It took me a long time to discover this. I was very frustrated with my Kidd running 4 shots into a 0.2” group, with one shot that blew the group out to 0.5” ( 50yds). At greater distances, the problem gets amplified. Groups that looked like they would be sub moa would get a flier blowing the group to 2-3”.

I called Kidd, and they suggested I test the mags to see if the issue was specific to a given magazine . I first thought , here we go, blame it on the mag.. I thought they were bs ing me. But I did test it and they were 100% correct . Kidd customer service said to buy twice as many mags as I needed. They throw about half of their Ruger magazines out because of this .

Some times , adjusting spring tension or polishing the feed ramp helps .

At the end of the day, I agree with Kidd. If they don’t run right, toss them . It is expensive troubleshooting these mags with good ammo .

I find if possible, doing this testing with quality ammo at an indoor range is best so wind isn’t a variable .
ymmv , just my experience.

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NETim

· #54 · 3 mo ago

BadaBing11 said:
manually operating the bolt may not give the right indication of what is going on . I found the best way is to chamber a round, insert the mag and fire the gun . Then drop the mag and very slowly pull back the bolt to remove the chambered bullet .

I find that in a given mag, that most often the damage will occur on the same bullet each time … for example , you may see upon initial testing the first and sixth round show damage . In my experience, i Have seen that it is repeatable . A different mag may not be the same .

Maybe an easier way to screen is to chart flyers for each mag . You‘ ll likely find some mags give more fliers than others . Next check to see if it happens on the same sequence every time you reload . I have had mags that run all 10 badly. Most of my bad ones damage 2 or 3 bullets . Just enough to ruin a good five shot group.

It took me a long time to discover this. I was very frustrated with my Kidd running 4 shots into a 0.2” group, with one shot that blew the group out to 0.5” ( 50yds). At greater distances, the problem gets amplified. Groups that looked like they would be sub moa would get a flier blowing the group to 2-3”.

I called Kidd, and they suggested I test the mags to see if the issue was specific to a given magazine . I first thought , here we go, blame it on the mag.. I thought they were bs ing me. But I did test it and they were 100% correct . Kidd customer service said to buy twice as many mags as I needed. They throw about half of their Ruger magazines out because of this .

Some times , adjusting spring tension or polishing the feed ramp helps .

At the end of the day, I agree with Kidd. If they don’t run right, toss them . It is expensive troubleshooting these mags with good ammo .

I find if possible, doing this testing with quality ammo at an indoor range is best so wind isn’t a variable .
ymmv , just my experience.

I'd want to do an autopsy on the bad mags to see what was causing them to be bad. It would be an interesting experiment.

BadaBing11

· #55 · 3 mo ago

NETim said:
I'd want to do an autopsy on the bad mags to see what was causing them to be bad. It would be an interesting experiment.

Exactly my thoughts . I could not completely figure it out. In my gun, lower spring tension on the mag reduced deformation , but at the cost of unreliable feeding. Higher spring tensions increased deformation, but reliability also got better .
I did do some examination of the feed ramps, and could not find visible differences. However, some improvement happened when I polished the feed ramp with a dremel felt and JB compound.

My hypothesis is that the springs on the mags have a great degree of variability . I haven’t figured a way to measure the tension so at this point it’s unproven.

Kidd told me that they experienced mags with variation in outside dimensions. This caused the feed ramp to be out of proper position . However, I never was able to validate this with my micrometer.

I lost a month of my life obsessing on this. I have even tried Tandemkross replacement parts . . If anyone figures this out, please post a thread dedicated to the subject . There be are several of us on rfc that have experienced this . We all have our best guess , but no answers that I’ve seen other than experiment with spring tension, polish the feed ramp, and make sure there is a strong spring in the mag release lever .

Right now I figure Tony Kidd has more experience on this than anyone . Im going with his dimensional difference even though I have not been able to prove it on my mags .

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RT8

· #56 · 3 mo ago

docjon said:
...It loves SK red box, half inch groups at 50...

Assuming 5 shot group...
I would be disappointed in a Kidd rifle that wouldn't shoot significantly better than that with it's favorite ammo....
It's been a while...but there have been lots of fairly simple DIY builds here done with the "best bang for the buck" at the time Green Mountain barrels that were better than that with their favorite ammo.

The further the range, the more that muzzle velocity standard deviation matters. I would assume that the blowback action would have the potential for a higher SD than any solid action (bolt, or anything else) would. But I've never seen any chrono test results on that.

docjon

Discussion Starter · #57 · 3 mo ago (Edited)

Thanks everyone for the help and ideas. I am going to run it this season and see how I do with it. So I’m going to run whatever ammo I can find that’s decent in my gun and play. I will let you guys know how I did with it. I usually try to shoot 2 matches a month.
Thanks
Jon

Reactions: 1

docjon

Discussion Starter · #58 · 3 mo ago

BadaBing11 said:
Cleaning practices vary greatly amongst shooters . I clean the chamber of my rifle after every outing . I dont Have a set time for removing the bolt and cleaning the receiver. But I’d estimate somewhere between 300 and 500 rounds . . I usually just do a visual on the bolt face and inside the receiver. If it looks bad, I clean it. I use Hornady One Shot to Lube the bolt . The rifle action stays clean much longer than when I use oil . Ymmv .

There once was a tool made for 10/22 to clean the chamber. I hardly ever clean my barrel but I do like to clean my chamber after 300 rounds or so. I just need to find a better way of doing it. I really just want to put a mop in the chamber and let it soak and then push the crude out. I really don’t want to have to take out of stock and remove bolt.

gcrank1

· #59 · 3 mo ago

I find no reason to push crud from the chamber all the way up/through the barrel.

Reactions: 1

docjon

Discussion Starter · #60 · 3 mo ago

gcrank1 said:
I find no reason to push crud from the chamber all the way up/through the barrel.

I don’t either I push it out the chamber and let it fall out that way. I use a pull through. I guess I said push when I meant pull.
Thanks
Jon

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