New Maple Sport Heavy - First range report with pics and problems.

86c said:

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I really like the 'dual purpose' aspect of the fore end with 'finger groove' and narrow (relative to the full up BR 3" wide) flat-bottomed fore end combination a lot.

And of course it is very pretty and apparently pretty accurate too.

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You are right. While I have not shot this stock I shot shot a milder version on a Ruger American Rifle from Boyds and practically fell in love after only one group. Even my Tuck Finger groove with it flat bottom is nice on the bags but still not at all too severe to feel weird in your hands and I think that is one of the factors that make the flat bottomed finger groove type stocks nice is that they give you a good portion of the best of both worlds.

I have another stock on the way and am really looking forward to it both for looks and "feel" :bthumb:

So I got the GF behind the Maple Sport Heavy, and I think she did better than me (not uncommon). The 4 group target pic is hers, and the 8 group pic is mine from that day. I have the best group, but I think hers are overall more consistent and average smaller. Unfortunately, the gun is not really safe to fire, and may have to be retired or reworked. While we did not have any doubles, it will consistently fire if the bolt is dropped on a loaded chamber. I know this because it will FTF, and then when you remove the mag and rack the bolt to re-cock the hammer and try to fire the stuck unfired round, it fires upon racking. It might actually be the JWH bolt assembly at fault, not sure. Maybe I should check the firing pin protrusion and headspace? Or, I can swap on a reliable TG and see if the problem leaves with the Kidd components, or stays with the JWH ones Kind of annoying, but hopefully fixable! Interesting to see how different our groups are...

Problem can only be bolt assy or trigger assy.

You have other 10/22 right? Just swap bolts and see if problem moves to other rifle or goes away in this one.

No problem? Swap trigger to other rifle see if problem moves to other rifle or goes away in this rifle.

Not likely but possible this trigger assy does not get along with this bolt.

When we start creating our own rifles by mixing and matching parts that were not designed from scratch to work together.

Many years ago a well known owner of an aftermarket 10/22 parts company used to use me to test his latest and greatest and many things that hit the market were as result of many late night phone calls. He started out by modifying Ruger parts before making his own.

He sent me the latest and by far greatest trigger Assy PARTS to go into my 1976 "Liberty" Carbine I had bought new for $59.95. I was shooting another rifle that day for serious accuracy testing but it started raining. By raining I mean BUCKETS full. So I got out the 10/22 to test the trigger.First test was not even aimed just pointed down range. ZZZZZZZZZZiP. 9 rounds before I could get my finger of the trigger Holy CRAP! Both trigger and sear had adjustment screws in this design. I backed them out a ways and watching carefully TAPPED the trigger. ZIIP 3 to 5 rounds before I could release the trigger. A full auto 10/22 has a SERIOUS cycle rate!! I then set BOTH adjustments at the least adjustment possible....ZIIIP another 5 shot burst followed by another that emptied the 10 round mag.

I had just tuned that mag so I through in a stock mag and some SK Standard Plus (the other had been H.V.) ZZIP. 9 rounds and a jam. Again 9 rounds and a jam. Normally I would have been very paranoid about the full auto but it was raining so hard on the steel roof I could just hear the thing and had the range to myself. Long story short I went through at least 200 rounds and was having a bunch of illegal but unintended fun!!

Rain started letting up a little so I took the trigger ASSY out of the rifle. Locked the sear in one ammo box and locked the hammer in another. When I got home I called him and told him what had happened.

"That is impossible" was his reaction. (I half thought it might be a joke on me). He put the parts into his trigger housing, readjusted for a finer trigger as I had pretty much set it at full heavy. Trigger was great. We started comparing notes. My 1976 Housing was VERY different than his late 1990s early 2000s housing. His had crisp molding lines while mine looked almost organic in comparison. The cause was the center to center distance on the hammer/sear pin holes. Ever since then I have warned people about just putting "trigger kits" into early housings.

If you are using an early housing you may have a similar problem. Mine only would run full auto because the housing was well worn (well over a 100,000 rounds and THEN polished inside).

Ever notice KIDD does not back their warranty on metal trigger housings for their drop in kit? "Designed for polymer housing only" or some such. This kind of "stacking of tolerances" with after market parts can cause real problems. Throw in an early housing and anything can happen.

Remember folks AS SOON AS YOU START MODIFYING THINGS YOU ARE NOW A FIREARMS DESIGNER AND YOU TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY.

Several people here in the past wanted to blame Ruger, or KIDD or Rimfire Technologies and it is not their fault most of the time. If you combine two parts from differing companies it is now YOUR design.

All good points, I do indeed understand the risks of mixing parts, however, i want help to fix things After some testing tonight, I found that my GF's gun will fire if the bolt is dropped on a live round in the chamber, as did my Maple Sport Heavy at the range. In both guns, the TGs pass the hammer test, and I cannot get the hammers to follow or slip when dropping on an empty chamber...or at all. Both triggers have consistently reset during live fire, and as far as I can tell, work correctly. In fact, her gun will fire with the hammer removed, simply by letting the bolt drop on a live round. I think the JWH bolt assemblies are somehow causing primer strikes to happen when the bolt slams home on a live round already in the chamber. I tried this test with the round seated firmly and with the round almost seated, and in both scenarios the GFs gun will fire and the Maple will indent the primer (though not fire) even though the hammer is not released (pr present!). I do not know why the Maple will not fire like it did at the range, but it marks the primer. I currently think the bolts are the problem. Swapping an OEM bolt into the GFs gun instantly cures the problem, and I have attached a pic of the firing pin marks from both guns, again, not resulting from the hammer in any way. I checked the headspace on her bolt and it seems proper (.043), so I am thinking that the firing pin may be too long at 3.3970 inches OAL? Could the fix simply be to trim the firing pin?

Recovered LIVE rounds from the Maple:



Recovered casings from her gun, fired by bolt impact while hammer was not present in gun. Notice how the case edge seems to have been hit by the bolt itself and ruptured upon ignition, as well as being marked by the firing pin:

I think you are doing this with magazine in place right? Years ago here we found out the hard way that shooting a 10/22 with out the mag is a very bad idea. Several members have been injured when a case let go with no mag in place and all the nasty stuff when straight down into the hand of the shooter. You are MUCH more likely to rupture a case with no mag in place.

The mag helps support the case in some way. As you know the primary ejector is the little step in the bolt so the mag pretty much has to touch the bolt. The experimenting we did 10 years or so ago showed the bolt tips down in the front with no mag.

VERY bad idea to ever chamber a round with out a mag in place!!

Manford Trens said:

I think this may be the key - the mag will keep the bolt from hitting the case rim...but still, my other guns don't do this and I wish these two were't so sensitive

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If being safe with a mag in place I would just be happy with that. It does sound like stacked tolerances.....or maybe unstacked tolerances in this case!:bthumb:

Manford Trens said:

LOL yeah I am honestly not too worried about the issue of the bolt crushing the rim - I can assume that's an unfortunate but unique interplay of the JWH bolt and the receiver. BUT the fact that the firing pins in two such bolts can apparently hit the primers without the help of a hammer makes me worried. I kind of want to go and test my other guns that have JWH bolts and see if they all do this I would be surprised if their firing pins were that much heavier or their return springs that much weaker, so maybe OEM bolts would do the same if they had reduced headspace.

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I have five Ruger Bolts that have been adjusted for head space and they have no such problem. I did the first two myself as well as pinning them. I forget where I saw it but there is a Spec for firing pin protrusion when they are pressed flush with the rear of the bolt. Will have to see if we can find it. QUE probably knows it as he did many many Ruger bolt tune ups. We could ask him I am sure. I will contact hi and ask him to comment on this thread.:bthumb:

I have a soft spot for maple stocks and have CZ 527 in .22 Hornet that is almost unbelievable in it's accuracy. Like easy 1/2" groups @ 100 yards and many 3/8" groups! It has me thinking the last 1/8" is a combination of the heavy cross hairs in the APV scope and the guy steering the rifle. Pilot error you know?!

One thing I really like about the the maple stocks is that they are so darn HARD! MUCH harder than walnut for instance. Several times I have bumped the rifle on a door jam or a shooting bench and thought "Oh no my beautiful stock has to have a mark on it now!" NO MARK! Because of this my appreciation of maple stocks has gone from "I like the way they look" to "I like the near indestructible nature of them!":bthumb:

Have you sent the bolt back to have the maker for checking yet? I am very interested in this. Have you measured the headspace? In case you do not know the headspace on a 10/22 is the depth of the pocket in the chamber end of the bolt. Best way is a depth micrometer but not many people that do not build engines or rifles have one.

Assuming that you have a caliper you can use it. Just open the caliper and then close it by pushing the end opposite the read out down on to a flat service and the "zero" it by pushing the zero button on a digital caliper or by twisting the the cover over the dial. After that comes the fun part.....

I made a career in Quality Control and had a small side business building Kart racing engines and built somewhere between 10-15 VW Type One (old style air cooled "Bug") engines so I have a large drawer full of measuring stuff and having spent all of my adult life using the stuff. I say this because it can be a little frustrating using this method but not bad. Because I do not trust this method as well (not because it does not work but because it is easy to make mistakes) as a depth mic I usually make at least 5 measurements and after throwing out any obvious error I average the rest of the measurements. I also do this because a caliper is normally a +/- .001" calibration. A micrometer is +/- .0001" to .0005" calibration depending on the manufacturer. So, in theory a depth micrometer is either twice as good to 10 times as good.

The "interesting" part is the person doing it......after zeroing your caliper open it up to have about .100" showing in the readout (the exact amount does not mean anything as long as it is over .070. Then place the pointy rod on the skinny end of the caliper in the headspace pocket in the end of the bolt and push the caliper down as straight as possible until the bottom of the caliper body is flush with the end of the bolt. Check your readout. The bottom spec for the 22lr is .043" but these days a number of people go tighter than spec and here is where you problem may be! Randy @ CPC told me the following:

SAAMI L.R. headspace gages are .043 GO, .050 NO GO and cost about $60...
I sell a more useful set .0425 Go, .045 NO GO for $11 shipped...
Can be ordered by sending in $11 or calling in order with credit card #...

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This was 2009 so price may have changed or he may not even sell them:

I know some people are going less than .0425 but if you do you start to risk "slam fires" which is what you are getting. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT LETTING THE BOLT SLAM FORWARD W/O MAGAZINE INSTALLED ON ANY 1O/22, REGARDLESS OF HEADSPACE, CAN BE DANGEROUS. AT LEAST 3 OR 4 RFC MEMBERS HAVE BEEN INJURED OVER THE YEARS WHEN A CASE LET GO AND THE CASE METAL, POWDER PARTICLES AND HOT GASES IN BEDDED IN THEIR HAND OR ARM!!

LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN, NEVER LOAD OR FIRE A 10/22 W/O MAG!! DO YOU THINK I MAY HAVE A STRONG OPINION ON THIS? IF YOU THOUGHT "YES" THAN GOOD!!

I did a good bit of testing when I headspaced and pinned my first two bolts and if there was an accuracy difference between .045" and .0425" I could not consistently find it! I set mine between .043 and .045 and was good to go. My most accurate 10/22 is set at .044".

Sorry for the long post but I thought it was important to get the safety part out and the rest I hope is helpful.:bthumb:

rth1959rth said:

Good post Vincent! I did not know about the safety issues of firing the 10/22 sans mag. Hope you are doing better with your medical/prescription issues.

Manford Trens, keep us posted on the results of your bolt findings. IMHO it has to be a headspace problem or a firing pin protrusion or a combination of both.

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Would be my first two guesses as well.