Great write up. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I'm sure there's a Rifleman's Patch just waiting for you! :bthumb:
I'm sure there's a Rifleman's Patch just waiting for you! :bthumb:
What's wrong with shooting an 03A3. I did it at my 3rd Appleseed. Wasn't able to break 210 with that one, but did get into the 180's. You really gotta practice your shooting cadence, though. Biggest problem is cycling the bolt and getting back on target in stage 3. Seems like I left 2 or 3 in the mag well on that stage.03a3guy,
Tell me you weren't shooting an 03a3?
You mentioned mag changes so I assume you were shooting something else. Were you using peep sights? Peep sights and the longer the barrel the better helps with my 'not as old as your eyes' eyes.
So much for simpicity and precision.And in the mean time we are waiting for ICE DEEP to come back and tell us how he did. Sorry for hijacking your thread.
No worries about "hijacking" as they call it. I am just glad to see people were interested in how I did, and what I thought/think of the program.And in the mean time we are waiting for ICE DEEP to come back and tell us how he did. Sorry for hijacking your thread.
No problem, and your welcome I am glad to be of help. The whole reason I posted this was for people like you trying to decide if it's worth your time .Thank you for the write-up(s). We're on the fence with whether to travel up-state for an Appleseed that fits our schedule and your postings convey information that's real useful to consider. Good on you for taking the time. :bthumb:
Yep sadly as a single guy I don't get much chance to have someone time me. I play on getting some timer to time myself as well. I will do plenty of dry firing practice but since the place I stay in is so small there is many areas where I can aim at anything 15 feet away, let alone 25 feet. The best spot would to be laying on the floor in the kitchen. I know I will keep working on some things even with no rifle in my hand such as trigger pull in relation to breathing. I did that the first night laying in bed I would breath out - pause/pull - breath in, repeat. This is one of my big issues because of working so hard to learn the wrong way apparently.Thanks for the feed-back and good on you for sticking it out. Yep, we learned how out of shape we were too! LOL At this point the best practice you can do is dry fire practice in you living room floor.
I totally agree on this. I plan on working more with my little .22lr's (Ruger 10/22 Target-scoped, and 10/22 Carbine-tech sights) than my Sig. Mainly I was just wanting to get a change of pace and see if those qualities would have helped me on my Sig, as well as just giving me my only chance so far to fire at long ranged (beyond 100 yards). The Sig is a great gun, though I really don't know what it's capable of, I just know it's built like a tank and very reliable. Fired everything I have ever shot through it from cheap steel ammo, to M855, to Hornet and Black Hills ammo. One thing I will say is I have found (so far, I need more testing on this) is you really seem to need heavier ammo (at least 60 grain or higher) to take advantage of what it can do. Really it's not made to be a 1MOA rifle, it's made to be a 3MOA rifle or slightly better that you could use in battle conditions and not be without a weapon due to the two stage piston switch. Also it's a piece of cake to clean (I have fired 100-200 rounds through it a few times and the chamber looks almost as clean as if I hadn't fired it at all) and really only inside the piston gets dirty, and even the barrel seems to stay cleaner than on some other guns I have fired (though can't compare to a AR, never shot, or cleaned one).Get someone to time you on the transitions, try to get that first shot off in under 12 seconds. Just do 10-15 minuets 2 or 3 times a week. You are trying to develope muscle memory and erase bad habits. Talk your self through the 6 steps. You should see ZERO wiggle when that hammer falls.
Pick one rifle, make it sing and dance. Switching from one rifle to another with the time monkey will cause you to waste motion as the wrong muscle memory kicks in. Until you can do it with a "little rifle", you can't with the big one. A 556? Man I'm jealous! My wife and I both a Sig fans.
The one mod I would say EVERY ruger user should work on, and do with there rifle is a automatic bolt release. This will really help out with the timed portion. I don't worry about the trigger on my Target model it's not to bad, but for 35 bucks it's something I will consider if I could get it to the quality I have on say my Savage 308 (2.5 lbs) which is so crisp it really helps the trigger pull.If there is a position you don't like...Practice it the most!
Don't go overboard on rifle mods, it ain't about the rifle. But...Any quirks it has in reliablity or mags getting hung up, etc, figure those out and fix them.
Standing is something I need to work on to get my groups to a reasonable level, I do pretty well in both prone and sitting I think the main thing with all of this I need to work on is the adjustment of POA while staying in position.Myself, I hated that loop sling at my first one. Now it's all I use in all positions but the hasty is best in the standing. In prone/sitting (with the loop), if the sling isn't just on the edge of hurting, it ain't tight enough.
Yeah I don't blame the program or instructors at all. When you have a group of about say 70% newer shooters and maybe only 10% experience shooters with the rest in the middle you really need to do it the way they do. They admit that this is just the easy way to do it and make it so people can memorize everything without having to do math in there head and such besides basic multiplication tables. I just don't like to learn things the wrong way even though I never plan on shooting beyond 500 yards I just want to learn it right when I do. I did learn a bit more about MOA/Distance changed and helped get it set in my mind as to what I had previously learned.Yep, IMC....Too much math in public will make folks eyes glaze over. Plus we can't get detailed and specific because every rifle is different. But the generic come-ups and wind formula will get you on paper with hits. Occasionally we have lines with nothing but LE or Mil, we cater that to the students.
This is 5 days worth of material put out in 2 days, it'll take you some time to chew on it, practice it a bit, and at some point the light bulb will click and you'll find 220+ scores flow like water, one after another.
Thanks for the reply and I look forward to continuing to work on it and take what I learned into more constant use every time I dry fire, and go to the range.The physical parts of shooting are perishable but the KNOWLEDGE part of how to do it is not. These fundamentals will cross to any rifle in any discipline. Work on it and even if have problems down the road, you'll know what you need to do to fix it. Have fun and look forward to seeing you get the patch and an orange hat if si inclined. It's very rewarding in so many ways....O.L.
"First shot gone wild" syndrome is actually *very* common, and the fix is relatively simple.I did alright on the prone but I still have the "first round wild" which I honestly don't think it's due to my shooting I think it's from being in such I hurry I don't rack the slide as I normally do.
The very first thing a shooter should do in his/her prep period is remove their chamber flag. The second is to unlock their bolt. The 'auto bolt release' is convenient, yes, but honestly does nothing to speed up the course of fire, unless the shooter has neglected to unlock their bolt in prep. Even in transition stages, the requirement is for shooters to transition with safeties on; there is no requirement for the bolt to remain back in a transition.The one mod I would say EVERY ruger user should work on, and do with there rifle is a automatic bolt release. This will really help out with the timed portion.
I found that one of the most difficult things (for me personally) was to actually be on-target when transitioning to seated or prone. Most of the time, I'd get into position, and be pointed at the wrong target backer. Dry fire practice helped solve this, and here's how:I will do plenty of dry firing practice but since the place I stay in is so small there is many areas where I can aim at anything 15 feet away, let alone 25 feet.
Standing position is tough. Without buying all kinds of gear such as a hard back shooting jacket, adding 12lbs of weight to your rifle, you WILL wobble. Fact. Everyone does. There's a difference between ridiculous wobble, and acceptable wobble.Standing is something I need to work on to get my groups to a reasonable level, I do pretty well in both prone and sitting I think the main thing with all of this I need to work on is the adjustment of POA while staying in position.
The 'simplified' wind rule works well out to 500 yards. To dope wind beyond 500, it takes quite a bit more experience, and a lot more practice (time). To further complicate matters, there are different methods of doping the wind, and subject-matter experts debate on which is better. We don't have time, in a 2-day clinic, to go over all of the variables which come into play- we give you a method that will put you onto a 4 MOA target under most conditions, out to 500 yards.I basically had to ignore the windage/MOA training they did because they say "it's good enough" which I understand there training people specifically to shoot out to 500 yards/meters and not beyond.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for coming out, and thanks for taking the time on such a comprehensive writeup.I didn't find there was a "sale-mans pitch" for anything, not the RWVA, or the ROC card or anything. It was mentioned once or twice and the real pitch is all about making sure people understand that what we have today in this country isn't just something that fell out of the sky for us but people stood, fought, and died for it and we need to appreciate that. And if we appreciate it maybe we will make different decisions, or put more effort into keeping what we have.
It's very possible this is the case, but I am not sure. The reason being is that I found this a issue while using a soft rest when I zeroed my rifle a few days before. I honestly think it's due to the way I rack the slide/bolt, but I of course could be very wrong. As a example at times I will have my POA looking right at target and my NPOA very stable to the point my scope cross hairs stay in the black and return when checking it (closing eyes, breathing in and out and opening them), I will then pull the trigger and see the shot through the scope hit about 6 inches almost always down and to the right from the POA when the trigger is pulled. I really need to test this more to see if it's my cadence, aiming, stability, or just the way I rack the rifle at times. Normally when I shoot a bad shot I can tell because I will feel that little "pull" of the rifle I do when pulling the trigger, and can blame myself, and when I was zeroing the rifle I knew it couldn't all be about the POA/Hold because this happened as I said with a soft rest which made me think I was racking the rifle improperly. I am going to the range today so I will test a variety of things to see how I can stop this.IceDeep-
Thank you for your thorough review of your experience at an Appleseed. Sounds like things went pretty well, and that you took away quite a bit of what was taught.
You had some questions and concerns, and since you took the time to give us a detailed review, I have taken the time to give a detailed response to these items.
"First shot gone wild" syndrome is actually *very* common, and the fix is relatively simple.
Understand that each shooter has (at least) two completely different zeroes on their rifle:
Rapid Fire Zero: this is the POI of rounds fired from a 'rapid' cadence "Breath in, breath out, pause, squeeze"
Slow Fire Zero (and others): This is the POI of rounds fired from any cadence different from the above rapid fire cadence.
When you drop down into position, establish your NPOA onto target the proper sequence goes like this:
In position, magazine in, round chambered, safety off, align sights, bring sights onto target (by shifting position), close eyes, breath in, breath out, relax, open eyes- are sights on target? If yes, breath in, breath out, relax, squeeze the trigger, call the shot, hold the trigger back, breath in, reset trigger, breath out, relax, squeeze the trigger rinse/wash/repeat until time elapses, rifle goes click, or you are required to shift NPOA to another target.
Notice the highlighted part of the sequence- the first round requires (at least) two breath cycles; one for verifying NPOA, and another for actually firing the shot.
Chances are, you are firing the 'errant' shot on your NPOA verification breath, which is a breath that, by its very nature, is more slow and deliberate than the breath cadence that is used for actually shooting.
I'm not saying that this is definitely the issue, but it is quite likely.
One thing I forgot to mention is i'm a Lefty, and shooting left handed is one of the few things I actually do left handed besides write (I play almost all sports right handed, but since I have to remove my support hand, or reach over (or under) the rifle with my trigger hand to rack the bolt it means I love my point of aim more easily while doing so. Just having the auto-bolt release gives me one less thing to worry about while doing all of this. Also I was hoping that it would fix the issue of the flyers because I could leave the bolt open, pull back and let it slide up itself though honestly I seem to have better luck by removing the flyers by pulling back on the bolt/slide a few times (not enough to load a round but to help the cartridge seat properly and evenly). You do have a great point and really since you will have the chamber slide/bolt released at the start of the transition it doesn't improve the time as much as I thought it would. Mainly I pointed this out because I know the women next to me had some extreme difficulties freeing the slide at times but she seemed to have less issues when I gave her the tip or two on how to do so.The very first thing a shooter should do in his/her prep period is remove their chamber flag. The second is to unlock their bolt. The 'auto bolt release' is convenient, yes, but honestly does nothing to speed up the course of fire, unless the shooter has neglected to unlock their bolt in prep. Even in transition stages, the requirement is for shooters to transition with safeties on; there is no requirement for the bolt to remain back in a transition.
What position were you using? I know not everyone uses the crosslegged position as it's the more difficult (most stable, but hard for some people to get into) and I didn't find to much of a issue though I did find adjusting the NPOA is a bit tougher than say in prone where a slight move of your hips adjust that little bit you need. I think the fact we did a few "dry runs" of transitioning in both seated and prone helped me work through some of this but I do need a ton my practice to get to where I can be and really appreciate the below tip. I will do this with my dry fire practice if I can find a spot that will allow me to do so.I found that one of the most difficult things (for me personally) was to actually be on-target when transitioning to seated or prone. Most of the time, I'd get into position, and be pointed at the wrong target backer. Dry fire practice helped solve this, and here's how:
Never thought of this, but yes the inner ear controls your balance (part of the reason some people get vertigo (as I think it's called) due to ear infections. I will have to test this out as I am honestly not sure if I am doing this properly.I didn't have much space to utilize; about 10 feet. So what I did is put a thumb tack on the wall about 18" up from the floor. I then practiced transitioning to seated, using the thumbtack as my target. If I got into position, and was further than 1-2" away from the target, I stood back up. It was, in fact, a problem with my initial index to the target; I needed to find that exact degree to which my body needed to be pointed, so that when I went from standing to seated, my rifle was naturally pointed in the general direction of *my* target.
I then did the same thing for prone position.
Standing position is tough. Without buying all kinds of gear such as a hard back shooting jacket, adding 12lbs of weight to your rifle, you WILL wobble. Fact. Everyone does. There's a difference between ridiculous wobble, and acceptable wobble.
The biggest factor in your position to affect wobble is rifle placement in the shoulder pocket; more specifically, is your head erect, or bending over to the rifle?
If you bend your head down to the rifle, your inner ear detects an out-of-balance situation, and commands your body to compensate. Instead of bringing your head to the rifle, bring the rifle to your cheek.
Will try to make sure I pocket the rifle properly into my shoulder. I know this is one thing I did very well before the training and I think it helped in how well I could shoot before. But as you learn something new you tend to pick up bad habits, or lose some of the good habits you have from the change in how you do things. Another very good point, thanks again.Other factors to consider:
Make sure your knees aren't locked. Don't be afraid to squat down a little; lowering your center of gravity certainly helps in windy conditions.
Make sure your support arm is UNDER the rifle, and your sling is as high on your support arm as you can get it- it should nearly be into your arm pit, and cross high on your chest.
Be sure to use the trigger hand to pull the rifle smartly into the shoulder pocket. I've seen grapefruit sized groups (mostly in the black) shrink to baseball (or smaller!) sized groups by simply pulling the rifle into the pocket. To determine how much pressure one should use, hold the rifle only with the trigger hand- you should use enough rear-ward pressure to hold the rifle level to the ground. This will *dramatically* reduce the amount of wobble one notices in their sights.
I know I didn't rest this much so I will try this next time if I can do so.Be sure to rest! Standing position uses every major muscle group in the body. If you are trying to hold *any* rifle up throughout a complete 10 shot string, your groups will suck. I personally rest after every shot, and concentrate on making each shot *exactly* the same- from the way I mount the rifle into my shoulder pocket, to the time it takes to squeeze the trigger. Consistency is the key to accuracy.
Thanks for the excellent reply very well put and detailed. I know you gave me a real handful of things to keep in mind and check when I get a chance to see if I can improve with your tips.The 'simplified' wind rule works well out to 500 yards. To dope wind beyond 500, it takes quite a bit more experience, and a lot more practice (time). To further complicate matters, there are different methods of doping the wind, and subject-matter experts debate on which is better. We don't have time, in a 2-day clinic, to go over all of the variables which come into play- we give you a method that will put you onto a 4 MOA target under most conditions, out to 500 yards.
If you *really* want to learn wind doping, and get an accurate DOPE (Data On Previous Engagements) book for your rifle/ammo combo, out to 500 yards and beyond, attend a Riflemans Boot Camp. 5 Days of shooting on a full-distance range, with full-distance qualified instructors is sure to improve not only your conceptual knowledge, but the practical application of how it works 'in real time'.
Rack-grade center-fire rifle, surplus ammo, targets at 500 yards, in the wind.
The skills we teach at our 2-day events will get you there, attending an RBC will get you there quicker.
Again, thank you for your review.
Thanks I try to be specific with my words as possible and be well thought out but it's always nice to know people understand that I am saying and think it's well said.Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for coming out, and thanks for taking the time on such a comprehensive writeup.