My first Appleseed (rundown)

I, also, attended my first Appleseed this weekend, and my impression was not unlike IceDeep's. Our group was much smaller which was fortunate, because due to a shortage of instructors in the South Texas area there were only two. The group was pretty diverse, ranging in age from late teens to the '70s and from absolute novice to somewhat experienced shooters.

The instructors handled the group very well, and as best I could tell everyone was quite pleased with the event. The novice shooter was a college student in his late teens who, very possibly, had never fired his brand new S&W or anything else. The instructors were very patient with him and worked one-on-one to help him reach the point of being able to at least get most of his shots on the paper. They even allowed him to remain in the prone position and fire at the five square targets while the others were going thru the AQT's. They were absolutely committed to not allowing him to become discouraged during his early, frustrating attempts, all while keeping the firing line running safely and smoothly for the others. I had the best view of this process since I was firing in the position to his right, and as a left hander I was facing his position the entire day.

My objective for the Appleseed was, and still is, to be able to fire a Rifleman score with iron sights with my eyes which have been keeping me from walking into trees, etc. for comfortably north of 70 years. After completing the first day and two AQT's I am convinced that it is doable, but not exactly the cakewalk I had originally hoped. I will have to work on mag changes, because in phase two of one AQT I was only able to get off three rounds for a score of 12 due to a long and difficult mag change. But for that mishap I would have been within striking distance.

Bottom line, I learned a lot, got acquainted with some neat folks and managed to get off over 200rds for the day. I'll be back and hopefully will be able to make both days next try. :bthumb:

No, I wasn't using an 03A3, but interestingly enough the range owner brought out an absolutely gorgeous 03A3 that had been completely restored with a new barrel and new CMP wood that I coveted seriously. Unfortunately, he had ruined it by putting on a replica scope and removed the original sights. The 03A3 was the first rifle I was ever issued, and I can still remember its serial no. I told the guy that if the S/N was right I would claim that one on the spot.

Too bad you can't graft that sight onto one of my rimfires. That is, in my humble opinion, the finest aperture sight ever mounted on a USGI weapon.

FYI, I was using a Marlin 795 with TechSights. If I really get desperate I may move the sights to my late 80's vintage Marlin 60 with the 22" barrel and give the AQT a go with that, though I don't think it will come to that. This weekend I was bothered by the bright sun with a target that was actually shaded, and I much of the time had a problem seeing the 300-400yd targets. Of course, if I got into better shape so that I wouldn't sweat so that even on an 85 degree day I wouldn't have to wipe my eyes after every round either.

Nothing wrong with an 03. It is an awesome rifle. I would bow at the feet of someone who can do it with an 03. That would be a challenge.

I've shot rifleman a number of times with various rifles, including a 20" bbl 10/22 with Tech Sights. I have also shot it with a scoped bolt action 22 but not an iron sighted center fire bolt action.

I have a set of Tech Sights on my 795. The two inch difference in barrel length between the 20 and 18" bbls makes a difference to my eyes. Not that I can't see the front sight on the 18" bbl, I just see two of them. Even though I think my 795 is more accurate it was more difficult to shoot well with the Tech Sights than my 10/22. None the less I was able to shoot above 210 with 57 year old eyes.

I did discover a few things that made it easier to do with my 795 the next time. Put some weight in the butt stock and fore stock. I put about 50 rounds of 22s in a plastic bag and put it into the butt stock. I also put about 30 rounds into the fore stock under the barrel. There are some divided sections and you can fit in about 7-10 rounds per section. Wrap the rounds under the barrel in foil to insulate them from barrel heat. This weight really helps the heft and balance. Of course you can use just about anything to weigh it down. Also I noticed that a tight sling changed the point of impact. I loosened mine up a bit but I've read about people putting a steel rod to stiffen the stock. That would add both weight and stiffness.

mac66 said:

And in the mean time we are waiting for ICE DEEP to come back and tell us how he did. Sorry for hijacking your thread.

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No worries about "hijacking" as they call it. I am just glad to see people were interested in how I did, and what I thought/think of the program.

Day 2:

(My memory isn't so good because I basically went to bed as soon as I could on the 2nd day from being so tired from such a long weekend and yesterday was house work stuff I missed on the weekend).

We started off the day with another round of redcoats, and then we spent a good amount of time working on POA such as shooting redcoats sideways to make us really move our POA, as well as practicing cadence shooting in time together through the instructors breathing pattern.

We shoot a few ATQ's and I must say they really are tougher than I gave them credit for. The standing portion isn't to bad but I can tell I need to practice my ability to stabilize the weapon.

The transitioning from standing to sitting was very tough with the time limit allowed, especially with a magazine change and on the first ATQ I messed up mainly due after shooting the first target I reloaded the next mag and forgot which shoots went were and put 3 in one and 7 in the other because I was focusing on doing everything else and my mind slipped.

The transitioning from standing to prone was also tough and I didnt get all rounds fired.

I did alright on the prone but I still have the "first round wild" which I honestly don't think it's due to my shooting I think it's from being in such I hurry I don't rack the slide as I normally do. I know it's not the weapon because it's not 100%, and while shooting without time pressures I don't have this issue accept once every 10 magazines. While shooting ATQ's every first shoot seemed to be this way and it's very discouraging when you are trying to do your best.

None the less with all these issues I was still in the 150's range and then 170's which I know I will improve on with a month or two of practice at the range.

The Shoot Boss allowed some of us with centerfire rifles (I was shooting my Ruger Target, but had brought my Sig Sauer 556) to go to the long distance range and try that. I had recently put a scope on the rifle as the iron sights on very poor for anything accept close quarters combat and it wasn't dialed in at all especially for that distance. Though at 200 yards I was able to get a number of targets on paper and I am curious how I would have done if I actually had a sling.

The other 2 people who went to the long distance range were doing very well. They didn't have super tight groups but one guy with his M1A was able to get 5/5 on the target all in the black. The guys actually through I was hitting center mass with my 2nd round and one of the instructors was impressed but it seems they didn't see properly through the spoting scope (60X, looked very nice). I was actually a 6 inches out of the black on the left.

After that we were given a choice either hang with the regular group and continue to do as they were doing with some changes (along with shooting ATQ's, shoot cookies, more red coats, more ATQs and they were going to give away some flags) or go with one of the Red Hats and one instructor and go through ATQ after ATQ. I thought I needed more of a chance to dial in my Sig so I did that but after seeing I wasn't going to dial it in as I liked doing that I switched back to my Ruger. The 2nd to last ATQ is were I got 170 something (target isn't with me) but on the last ATQ I saw a those 2 flyers from the first shoot and mag change and I knew I was burnt out and just needed to take a break from shooting for the rest of the day. We had several people who were right on the verge of getting rifleman one guy shoot 208 not once, but twice! Another was in the just about 200 range.

We ended up having the range owner come in and shoot with a bolt action (sorry can't remember what it was, but it was a centerfire) and qualify on his 3rd ATQ, we also had a instructor re-qualify and get another rifleman badge (which I didn't know you could do).

I know we had a lot of impressed people and I would say about 1/2 the group stayed to clean up the brass and everything else and we left the range as good/better than when we found it. I also enjoyed chatting with some of the people there as one of the instructors (the one who qualified a 2nd time and is a young man I would say in the 17yo range) about the ruger and some of the modifications I have done, and another instructor (actually his father) who told me about a gunsmith I could get a nice and cheap (35 bucks!) trigger job he said would be helpful.

One thing I wanted to comment on is you could tell one person (I won't embarrass him/her by saying who) while doing the stories would get rather emotional and that the revolution and what was given up was very close to their heart. They would have a quivering lip and that voice change while giving some of the stories and it really make you feel it a bit yourself.

I didn't find there was a "sale-mans pitch" for anything, not the RWVA, or the ROC card or anything. It was mentioned once or twice and the real pitch is all about making sure people understand that what we have today in this country isn't just something that fell out of the sky for us but people stood, fought, and died for it and we need to appreciate that. And if we appreciate it maybe we will make different decisions, or put more effort into keeping what we have.

Overall I would say that I learned a few things most especially that will help me in the end.

1. Use of a sling... I was as clueless as a newborn on how to use a sling for anything other than carrying my rifle. I never used one before and now I think I have it pretty well down both the arm sling, as well as the hasty sling (and even the hasty, hasty sling which I didn't practice but is rather simple).

2. Positions... I knew how to hold a gun so I could shoot fairly well, but I must say I saw a vast improvement in rifle stabability using the positions that are thought there.

3. POA... I have gotten a bit better at POA, even before the weekend I was practicing the POA and doing the "put gun on target, close eyes, check POA, adjust" but now I know how to do that other than just sitting on a bench.

4. Cadence/Breathing... I was doing it all wrong and I think this is what messed me up the most especially with ATQs. I have been practicing "holding breath" not "releasing breath" but the instructors gave us a good example of why shooting during the pause while your breaths are empty is the best. For one you can't know if your lungs are full or not the same as the last shoot, and two if your using bone support and not muscle support (As I was) you will be more relaxed. I do think the way I was doing it (lungs full) helps with your trying to muscle the rifle, but I think it's not the best way to be accurate. The only reason I say that is because of the fact that when you hold your breath it helps your muscles keep tension. But even with that said I will be working very hard to correct myself in this area and do the relaxed, pause between breathing shooting from now on.

5. Trigger pull... I noticed after a instuctor told me hold to put my trigger on the trigger properly I was able to get near perfect shoots at times (right at POA, center mass) which made me a believer in a hurry.

If I had one negative thing to say about Appleseed it would be the following...

I am a very, ummm shall I say OCD, or anal person? I like doing things exactly as they should be done and this helps me in some ways but I basically had to ignore the windage/MOA training they did because they say "it's good enough" which I understand there training people specifically to shoot out to 500 yards/meters and not beyond. The training is made to make it easy for people to do those corrections. Not saying I know a ton about windage/MOA but I could tell they were teaching "sorta right" things and not "exactly right things" in this area. Thus I didn't want to learn something that is "sorta right" with the way I learn I prefer to learn exactly right even if it means study on my own without help.

Besides that and the fact I am sore and hurting a bit from all the hard work I can't say one bad thing about the program (and honestly being sore isn't anything anyone can fix and it's a small price to pay for the instruction, I don't think I am that bad of shape for a guy in my 30's either). Good people who you can tell care, good instruction which is better than any non-official instructions I have had. I am very sure than in the next appleseed or two I will get my badge and because I signed up for RWVA before going, and now have my ROC I will continue to make the effort to every AS until then and maybe, just maybe I will look into taking a orange hat at that point I know they need more in my area. The Green hat and red hat were both from out of my state so I really appreciate them making the trip to allow that to happen. I think we only have a handful of orange hats in our state sadly.

Hopefully people think I have been fair, and I can't comment on what the bigger group did while we were at the long distance range or the ATQ "grind" hehehe. But I can say every day I enjoyed, every ache and pain was worth it.

Thanks!

Thanks for the feed-back and good on you for sticking it out. Yep, we learned how out of shape we were too! LOL At this point the best practice you can do is dry fire practice in you living room floor. Get someone to time you on the transitions, try to get that first shot off in under 12 seconds. Just do 10-15 minuets 2 or 3 times a week. You are trying to develope muscle memory and erase bad habits. Talk your self through the 6 steps. You should see ZERO wiggle when that hammer falls.

Pick one rifle, make it sing and dance. Switching from one rifle to another with the time monkey will cause you to waste motion as the wrong muscle memory kicks in. Until you can do it with a "little rifle", you can't with the big one. A 556? Man I'm jealous! My wife and I both a Sig fans.

If there is a position you don't like...Practice it the most!

Don't go overboard on rifle mods, it ain't about the rifle. But...Any quirks it has in reliablity or mags getting hung up, etc, figure those out and fix them.

Myself, I hated that loop sling at my first one. Now it's all I use in all positions but the hasty is best in the standing. In prone/sitting (with the loop), if the sling isn't just on the edge of hurting, it ain't tight enough.

Yep, IMC....Too much math in public will make folks eyes glaze over. Plus we can't get detailed and specific because every rifle is different. But the generic come-ups and wind formula will get you on paper with hits. Occasionally we have lines with nothing but LE or Mil, we cater that to the students.

This is 5 days worth of material put out in 2 days, it'll take you some time to chew on it, practice it a bit, and at some point the light bulb will click and you'll find 220+ scores flow like water, one after another.

The physical parts of shooting are perishable but the KNOWLEDGE part of how to do it is not. These fundamentals will cross to any rifle in any discipline. Work on it and even if have problems down the road, you'll know what you need to do to fix it. Have fun and look forward to seeing you get the patch and an orange hat if si inclined. It's very rewarding in so many ways....O.L.

Ballinger said:

Thank you for the write-up(s). We're on the fence with whether to travel up-state for an Appleseed that fits our schedule and your postings convey information that's real useful to consider. Good on you for taking the time. :bthumb:

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No problem, and your welcome I am glad to be of help. The whole reason I posted this was for people like you trying to decide if it's worth your time .

Xsail said:

Thanks for the feed-back and good on you for sticking it out. Yep, we learned how out of shape we were too! LOL At this point the best practice you can do is dry fire practice in you living room floor.

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Yep sadly as a single guy I don't get much chance to have someone time me. I play on getting some timer to time myself as well. I will do plenty of dry firing practice but since the place I stay in is so small there is many areas where I can aim at anything 15 feet away, let alone 25 feet. The best spot would to be laying on the floor in the kitchen. I know I will keep working on some things even with no rifle in my hand such as trigger pull in relation to breathing. I did that the first night laying in bed I would breath out - pause/pull - breath in, repeat. This is one of my big issues because of working so hard to learn the wrong way apparently.

Xsail said:

Get someone to time you on the transitions, try to get that first shot off in under 12 seconds. Just do 10-15 minuets 2 or 3 times a week. You are trying to develope muscle memory and erase bad habits. Talk your self through the 6 steps. You should see ZERO wiggle when that hammer falls.

Pick one rifle, make it sing and dance. Switching from one rifle to another with the time monkey will cause you to waste motion as the wrong muscle memory kicks in. Until you can do it with a "little rifle", you can't with the big one. A 556? Man I'm jealous! My wife and I both a Sig fans.

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I totally agree on this. I plan on working more with my little .22lr's (Ruger 10/22 Target-scoped, and 10/22 Carbine-tech sights) than my Sig. Mainly I was just wanting to get a change of pace and see if those qualities would have helped me on my Sig, as well as just giving me my only chance so far to fire at long ranged (beyond 100 yards). The Sig is a great gun, though I really don't know what it's capable of, I just know it's built like a tank and very reliable. Fired everything I have ever shot through it from cheap steel ammo, to M855, to Hornet and Black Hills ammo. One thing I will say is I have found (so far, I need more testing on this) is you really seem to need heavier ammo (at least 60 grain or higher) to take advantage of what it can do. Really it's not made to be a 1MOA rifle, it's made to be a 3MOA rifle or slightly better that you could use in battle conditions and not be without a weapon due to the two stage piston switch. Also it's a piece of cake to clean (I have fired 100-200 rounds through it a few times and the chamber looks almost as clean as if I hadn't fired it at all) and really only inside the piston gets dirty, and even the barrel seems to stay cleaner than on some other guns I have fired (though can't compare to a AR, never shot, or cleaned one).

I am considering building a custom long range AR especially since all my mags/sights/ammo will switch back and forth well if I build it right. Prob something with a 20 inch barrel not a 16 inch like the sig.

Xsail said:

If there is a position you don't like...Practice it the most!

Don't go overboard on rifle mods, it ain't about the rifle. But...Any quirks it has in reliablity or mags getting hung up, etc, figure those out and fix them.

Click to expand...

The one mod I would say EVERY ruger user should work on, and do with there rifle is a automatic bolt release. This will really help out with the timed portion. I don't worry about the trigger on my Target model it's not to bad, but for 35 bucks it's something I will consider if I could get it to the quality I have on say my Savage 308 (2.5 lbs) which is so crisp it really helps the trigger pull.

Xsail said:

Myself, I hated that loop sling at my first one. Now it's all I use in all positions but the hasty is best in the standing. In prone/sitting (with the loop), if the sling isn't just on the edge of hurting, it ain't tight enough.

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Standing is something I need to work on to get my groups to a reasonable level, I do pretty well in both prone and sitting I think the main thing with all of this I need to work on is the adjustment of POA while staying in position.

Xsail said:

Yep, IMC....Too much math in public will make folks eyes glaze over. Plus we can't get detailed and specific because every rifle is different. But the generic come-ups and wind formula will get you on paper with hits. Occasionally we have lines with nothing but LE or Mil, we cater that to the students.

This is 5 days worth of material put out in 2 days, it'll take you some time to chew on it, practice it a bit, and at some point the light bulb will click and you'll find 220+ scores flow like water, one after another.

Click to expand...

Yeah I don't blame the program or instructors at all. When you have a group of about say 70% newer shooters and maybe only 10% experience shooters with the rest in the middle you really need to do it the way they do. They admit that this is just the easy way to do it and make it so people can memorize everything without having to do math in there head and such besides basic multiplication tables. I just don't like to learn things the wrong way even though I never plan on shooting beyond 500 yards I just want to learn it right when I do. I did learn a bit more about MOA/Distance changed and helped get it set in my mind as to what I had previously learned.

Xsail said:

The physical parts of shooting are perishable but the KNOWLEDGE part of how to do it is not. These fundamentals will cross to any rifle in any discipline. Work on it and even if have problems down the road, you'll know what you need to do to fix it. Have fun and look forward to seeing you get the patch and an orange hat if si inclined. It's very rewarding in so many ways....O.L.

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Thanks for the reply and I look forward to continuing to work on it and take what I learned into more constant use every time I dry fire, and go to the range.

IceDeep-

Thank you for your thorough review of your experience at an Appleseed. Sounds like things went pretty well, and that you took away quite a bit of what was taught.

You had some questions and concerns, and since you took the time to give us a detailed review, I have taken the time to give a detailed response to these items.

I did alright on the prone but I still have the "first round wild" which I honestly don't think it's due to my shooting I think it's from being in such I hurry I don't rack the slide as I normally do.

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"First shot gone wild" syndrome is actually *very* common, and the fix is relatively simple.

Understand that each shooter has (at least) two completely different zeroes on their rifle:

Rapid Fire Zero: this is the POI of rounds fired from a 'rapid' cadence "Breath in, breath out, pause, squeeze"

Slow Fire Zero (and others): This is the POI of rounds fired from any cadence different from the above rapid fire cadence.

When you drop down into position, establish your NPOA onto target the proper sequence goes like this:

In position, magazine in, round chambered, safety off, align sights, bring sights onto target (by shifting position), close eyes, breath in, breath out, relax, open eyes- are sights on target? If yes, breath in, breath out, relax, squeeze the trigger, call the shot, hold the trigger back, breath in, reset trigger, breath out, relax, squeeze the trigger rinse/wash/repeat until time elapses, rifle goes click, or you are required to shift NPOA to another target.

Notice the highlighted part of the sequence- the first round requires (at least) two breath cycles; one for verifying NPOA, and another for actually firing the shot.
Chances are, you are firing the 'errant' shot on your NPOA verification breath, which is a breath that, by its very nature, is more slow and deliberate than the breath cadence that is used for actually shooting.

I'm not saying that this is definitely the issue, but it is quite likely.

The one mod I would say EVERY ruger user should work on, and do with there rifle is a automatic bolt release. This will really help out with the timed portion.

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The very first thing a shooter should do in his/her prep period is remove their chamber flag. The second is to unlock their bolt. The 'auto bolt release' is convenient, yes, but honestly does nothing to speed up the course of fire, unless the shooter has neglected to unlock their bolt in prep. Even in transition stages, the requirement is for shooters to transition with safeties on; there is no requirement for the bolt to remain back in a transition.

I will do plenty of dry firing practice but since the place I stay in is so small there is many areas where I can aim at anything 15 feet away, let alone 25 feet.

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I found that one of the most difficult things (for me personally) was to actually be on-target when transitioning to seated or prone. Most of the time, I'd get into position, and be pointed at the wrong target backer. Dry fire practice helped solve this, and here's how:

I didn't have much space to utilize; about 10 feet. So what I did is put a thumb tack on the wall about 18" up from the floor. I then practiced transitioning to seated, using the thumbtack as my target. If I got into position, and was further than 1-2" away from the target, I stood back up. It was, in fact, a problem with my initial index to the target; I needed to find that exact degree to which my body needed to be pointed, so that when I went from standing to seated, my rifle was naturally pointed in the general direction of *my* target.

I then did the same thing for prone position.

Standing is something I need to work on to get my groups to a reasonable level, I do pretty well in both prone and sitting I think the main thing with all of this I need to work on is the adjustment of POA while staying in position.

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Standing position is tough. Without buying all kinds of gear such as a hard back shooting jacket, adding 12lbs of weight to your rifle, you WILL wobble. Fact. Everyone does. There's a difference between ridiculous wobble, and acceptable wobble.

The biggest factor in your position to affect wobble is rifle placement in the shoulder pocket; more specifically, is your head erect, or bending over to the rifle?
If you bend your head down to the rifle, your inner ear detects an out-of-balance situation, and commands your body to compensate. Instead of bringing your head to the rifle, bring the rifle to your cheek.

Other factors to consider:
Make sure your knees aren't locked. Don't be afraid to squat down a little; lowering your center of gravity certainly helps in windy conditions.

Make sure your support arm is UNDER the rifle, and your sling is as high on your support arm as you can get it- it should nearly be into your arm pit, and cross high on your chest.

Be sure to use the trigger hand to pull the rifle smartly into the shoulder pocket. I've seen grapefruit sized groups (mostly in the black) shrink to baseball (or smaller!) sized groups by simply pulling the rifle into the pocket. To determine how much pressure one should use, hold the rifle only with the trigger hand- you should use enough rear-ward pressure to hold the rifle level to the ground. This will *dramatically* reduce the amount of wobble one notices in their sights.

Be sure to rest! Standing position uses every major muscle group in the body. If you are trying to hold *any* rifle up throughout a complete 10 shot string, your groups will suck. I personally rest after every shot, and concentrate on making each shot *exactly* the same- from the way I mount the rifle into my shoulder pocket, to the time it takes to squeeze the trigger. Consistency is the key to accuracy.

I basically had to ignore the windage/MOA training they did because they say "it's good enough" which I understand there training people specifically to shoot out to 500 yards/meters and not beyond.

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The 'simplified' wind rule works well out to 500 yards. To dope wind beyond 500, it takes quite a bit more experience, and a lot more practice (time). To further complicate matters, there are different methods of doping the wind, and subject-matter experts debate on which is better. We don't have time, in a 2-day clinic, to go over all of the variables which come into play- we give you a method that will put you onto a 4 MOA target under most conditions, out to 500 yards.

If you *really* want to learn wind doping, and get an accurate DOPE (Data On Previous Engagements) book for your rifle/ammo combo, out to 500 yards and beyond, attend a Riflemans Boot Camp. 5 Days of shooting on a full-distance range, with full-distance qualified instructors is sure to improve not only your conceptual knowledge, but the practical application of how it works 'in real time'.

Rack-grade center-fire rifle, surplus ammo, targets at 500 yards, in the wind.

The skills we teach at our 2-day events will get you there, attending an RBC will get you there quicker.

Again, thank you for your review.

-ItsanSKS

ItsanSKS said:

IceDeep-

Thank you for your thorough review of your experience at an Appleseed. Sounds like things went pretty well, and that you took away quite a bit of what was taught.

You had some questions and concerns, and since you took the time to give us a detailed review, I have taken the time to give a detailed response to these items.

"First shot gone wild" syndrome is actually *very* common, and the fix is relatively simple.

Understand that each shooter has (at least) two completely different zeroes on their rifle:

Rapid Fire Zero: this is the POI of rounds fired from a 'rapid' cadence "Breath in, breath out, pause, squeeze"

Slow Fire Zero (and others): This is the POI of rounds fired from any cadence different from the above rapid fire cadence.

When you drop down into position, establish your NPOA onto target the proper sequence goes like this:

In position, magazine in, round chambered, safety off, align sights, bring sights onto target (by shifting position), close eyes, breath in, breath out, relax, open eyes- are sights on target? If yes, breath in, breath out, relax, squeeze the trigger, call the shot, hold the trigger back, breath in, reset trigger, breath out, relax, squeeze the trigger rinse/wash/repeat until time elapses, rifle goes click, or you are required to shift NPOA to another target.

Notice the highlighted part of the sequence- the first round requires (at least) two breath cycles; one for verifying NPOA, and another for actually firing the shot.
Chances are, you are firing the 'errant' shot on your NPOA verification breath, which is a breath that, by its very nature, is more slow and deliberate than the breath cadence that is used for actually shooting.

I'm not saying that this is definitely the issue, but it is quite likely.

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It's very possible this is the case, but I am not sure. The reason being is that I found this a issue while using a soft rest when I zeroed my rifle a few days before. I honestly think it's due to the way I rack the slide/bolt, but I of course could be very wrong. As a example at times I will have my POA looking right at target and my NPOA very stable to the point my scope cross hairs stay in the black and return when checking it (closing eyes, breathing in and out and opening them), I will then pull the trigger and see the shot through the scope hit about 6 inches almost always down and to the right from the POA when the trigger is pulled. I really need to test this more to see if it's my cadence, aiming, stability, or just the way I rack the rifle at times. Normally when I shoot a bad shot I can tell because I will feel that little "pull" of the rifle I do when pulling the trigger, and can blame myself, and when I was zeroing the rifle I knew it couldn't all be about the POA/Hold because this happened as I said with a soft rest which made me think I was racking the rifle improperly. I am going to the range today so I will test a variety of things to see how I can stop this.

ItsanSKS said:

The very first thing a shooter should do in his/her prep period is remove their chamber flag. The second is to unlock their bolt. The 'auto bolt release' is convenient, yes, but honestly does nothing to speed up the course of fire, unless the shooter has neglected to unlock their bolt in prep. Even in transition stages, the requirement is for shooters to transition with safeties on; there is no requirement for the bolt to remain back in a transition.

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One thing I forgot to mention is i'm a Lefty, and shooting left handed is one of the few things I actually do left handed besides write (I play almost all sports right handed, but since I have to remove my support hand, or reach over (or under) the rifle with my trigger hand to rack the bolt it means I love my point of aim more easily while doing so. Just having the auto-bolt release gives me one less thing to worry about while doing all of this. Also I was hoping that it would fix the issue of the flyers because I could leave the bolt open, pull back and let it slide up itself though honestly I seem to have better luck by removing the flyers by pulling back on the bolt/slide a few times (not enough to load a round but to help the cartridge seat properly and evenly). You do have a great point and really since you will have the chamber slide/bolt released at the start of the transition it doesn't improve the time as much as I thought it would. Mainly I pointed this out because I know the women next to me had some extreme difficulties freeing the slide at times but she seemed to have less issues when I gave her the tip or two on how to do so.

ItsanSKS said:

I found that one of the most difficult things (for me personally) was to actually be on-target when transitioning to seated or prone. Most of the time, I'd get into position, and be pointed at the wrong target backer. Dry fire practice helped solve this, and here's how:

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What position were you using? I know not everyone uses the crosslegged position as it's the more difficult (most stable, but hard for some people to get into) and I didn't find to much of a issue though I did find adjusting the NPOA is a bit tougher than say in prone where a slight move of your hips adjust that little bit you need. I think the fact we did a few "dry runs" of transitioning in both seated and prone helped me work through some of this but I do need a ton my practice to get to where I can be and really appreciate the below tip. I will do this with my dry fire practice if I can find a spot that will allow me to do so.

ItsanSKS said:

I didn't have much space to utilize; about 10 feet. So what I did is put a thumb tack on the wall about 18" up from the floor. I then practiced transitioning to seated, using the thumbtack as my target. If I got into position, and was further than 1-2" away from the target, I stood back up. It was, in fact, a problem with my initial index to the target; I needed to find that exact degree to which my body needed to be pointed, so that when I went from standing to seated, my rifle was naturally pointed in the general direction of *my* target.

I then did the same thing for prone position.

Standing position is tough. Without buying all kinds of gear such as a hard back shooting jacket, adding 12lbs of weight to your rifle, you WILL wobble. Fact. Everyone does. There's a difference between ridiculous wobble, and acceptable wobble.

The biggest factor in your position to affect wobble is rifle placement in the shoulder pocket; more specifically, is your head erect, or bending over to the rifle?
If you bend your head down to the rifle, your inner ear detects an out-of-balance situation, and commands your body to compensate. Instead of bringing your head to the rifle, bring the rifle to your cheek.

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Never thought of this, but yes the inner ear controls your balance (part of the reason some people get vertigo (as I think it's called) due to ear infections. I will have to test this out as I am honestly not sure if I am doing this properly.

ItsanSKS said:

Other factors to consider:
Make sure your knees aren't locked. Don't be afraid to squat down a little; lowering your center of gravity certainly helps in windy conditions.

Make sure your support arm is UNDER the rifle, and your sling is as high on your support arm as you can get it- it should nearly be into your arm pit, and cross high on your chest.

Be sure to use the trigger hand to pull the rifle smartly into the shoulder pocket. I've seen grapefruit sized groups (mostly in the black) shrink to baseball (or smaller!) sized groups by simply pulling the rifle into the pocket. To determine how much pressure one should use, hold the rifle only with the trigger hand- you should use enough rear-ward pressure to hold the rifle level to the ground. This will *dramatically* reduce the amount of wobble one notices in their sights.

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Will try to make sure I pocket the rifle properly into my shoulder. I know this is one thing I did very well before the training and I think it helped in how well I could shoot before. But as you learn something new you tend to pick up bad habits, or lose some of the good habits you have from the change in how you do things. Another very good point, thanks again.

ItsanSKS said:

Be sure to rest! Standing position uses every major muscle group in the body. If you are trying to hold *any* rifle up throughout a complete 10 shot string, your groups will suck. I personally rest after every shot, and concentrate on making each shot *exactly* the same- from the way I mount the rifle into my shoulder pocket, to the time it takes to squeeze the trigger. Consistency is the key to accuracy.

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I know I didn't rest this much so I will try this next time if I can do so.

ItsanSKS said:

The 'simplified' wind rule works well out to 500 yards. To dope wind beyond 500, it takes quite a bit more experience, and a lot more practice (time). To further complicate matters, there are different methods of doping the wind, and subject-matter experts debate on which is better. We don't have time, in a 2-day clinic, to go over all of the variables which come into play- we give you a method that will put you onto a 4 MOA target under most conditions, out to 500 yards.

If you *really* want to learn wind doping, and get an accurate DOPE (Data On Previous Engagements) book for your rifle/ammo combo, out to 500 yards and beyond, attend a Riflemans Boot Camp. 5 Days of shooting on a full-distance range, with full-distance qualified instructors is sure to improve not only your conceptual knowledge, but the practical application of how it works 'in real time'.

Rack-grade center-fire rifle, surplus ammo, targets at 500 yards, in the wind.

The skills we teach at our 2-day events will get you there, attending an RBC will get you there quicker.

Again, thank you for your review.

-ItsanSKS

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Thanks for the excellent reply very well put and detailed. I know you gave me a real handful of things to keep in mind and check when I get a chance to see if I can improve with your tips.

intheburbs said:

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for coming out, and thanks for taking the time on such a comprehensive writeup.

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Thanks I try to be specific with my words as possible and be well thought out but it's always nice to know people understand that I am saying and think it's well said.