Rimfire Central Firearm Forum banner

Model 351ka feed problem

1546 12
If any one is familiar with this model I need help correcting a feed problem. When loading this rifle I have the bolt closed and feed rounds into the stock cutout, it loads fine; when I pull the bolt to chamber a round, the first round (even if single round is loaded in tube mag.) will litterally jump from the end of the feed ramp into the chamber & often fully chamber itself. When this happens, the bolt closes on a chambered round and will not fire, I pull back the bolt and the round will not extract, the next round jams it's nose against the first (I have to remove this round which is partially in the chamber with a knife blade or screwdriver tip) and close the bolt again; now the first round will fire and the rifle will function as intended.
What is worn/out of adjustment? the cut off in the magazine/feedramp assy is free and seems to hold a round in position (as it should untill the bolt retracts).I need input on this one, suggestions please!!!!!!!!
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,365 Posts
I've been thinking about this while cutting grass and had to stop and reply.

I think...it could be that when you pull back the bolt after you load the rifle you aren't pulling it back far enough (or hard enough) to cock the action.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
8,236 Posts
Smoe things to look for...

If any one is familiar with this model I need help correcting a feed problem.
From your own description, this sounds more like a Fail-to-Fire problem or a Fall-to Extract problem, not a Fail-to Feed problem.

What is worn/out of adjustment?
Assuming its not what Huggy suggested in post #4, I would be looking at the trigger,disconnector, sear and related parts.

the cut off in the magazine/feedramp assy is free and seems to hold a round in position (as it should untill the bolt retracts).I need input on this one, suggestions please!!!!!!!!
Don't think there is any problem with your feed mechanisms. From your description they seem to be working exactly as they should be!!!

Here are some things to look for each of the specific problems. There may be several!!!:eek:

...When loading this rifle I have the bolt closed and feed rounds into the stock cutout, it loads fine; when I pull the bolt to chamber a round, the first round (even if single round is loaded in tube mag.) will litterally jump from the end of the feed ramp into the chamber & often fully chamber itself. When this happens, the bolt closes on a chambered round and will not fire,
When you pull back the cocking knob, the hammer should stay back. You can visually check this by looking through the cocking knob slot. The last 7/8ths of an inch should be "empty", except for the mainspring plunger (5/32" dia approx) and the mainspring itself.(maybe 3/16" OD) If there is something behind the bolt that is the same approx dia. of the bolt, then the hammer is not staying back. There can be several reasons why that may be so.
If the hammer is not staying back push the trigger forward. You might hear a click if it moved forward. If you hear a click, the trigger and disconnector are not resetting. Could be several reasons for this too. 1) Weak trigger return spring, or the trigger spring could be installed incorrectly. 2) The disconnector spring & sear spring (one piece) has too much tension. I know this for a fact as I gave one of these a little tweek to increase the tension on the disconnector and it worked too well as the trigger spring did not have enough power the overcome the extra tension of the disconnector spring & sear spring. End result was the trigger would not reset after a shot unless it was manually pushed forward. 3) The disconnector bracket might be pinched from improper disassembly and causing the disconnector to bind, this will cause the same outcome as #2.

...I pull back the bolt and the round will not extract, the next round jams it's nose against the first (I have to remove this round which is partially in the chamber with a knife blade or screwdriver tip) and close the bolt again; now the first round will fire and the rifle will function as intended.
First very carefully inspect the mouth of the chamber. Is there a burr at 12 O'clock??? A burr can cause the round to not eject, causing the problem you described. If there is its most likely been dry-fired too much. You will need to remove the burr. A worn extractor could also cause an unfired round to not be extracted. Grim and grundge packed under the extractor = the same result. The metal of the bolt face displaced into the extractor slot, causing a binding extractor = the same result. (This metal displacement into the extractor slot is normal in "high-mileage" semi-auto Mossy's.) Worn or impeded extractors usually only cause a problem with extracting UNFIRED rounds. Hope this helps!!!!
God Bless, Frank.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I should have clarified, the firearm is cocking during the manual (first round) loading ; it is not firing the round (click and no bang). I am going to disassemble (again) and check as per your suggestions. Thank you to all for the input.
I do have one question remaining...... is the spring pressure from the tube magazine supposed to force a round from the feed ramp toward/into the chamber or is the bolt to pick the round up on it's closing stroke? As I mentioned in my first post, the first round is being forced (jumping) from the mag into the chamber ( I have not noticed this on firing remaining rounds, but I admittedly did not look once the rifle was firing) What would a normal round feed be in this rifle? Having a round jump into the chamber is strange (even in a Mossberg).
Thanks again.
C.W.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
8,236 Posts
The round "jumping"...

I should have clarified, the firearm is cocking during the manual (first round) loading ; it is not firing the round (click and no bang). I am going to disassemble (again) and check as per your suggestions. Thank you to all for the input.
I do have one question remaining...... is the spring pressure from the tube magazine supposed to force a round from the feed ramp toward/into the chamber or is the bolt to pick the round up on it's closing stroke? As I mentioned in my first post, the first round is being forced (jumping) from the mag into the chamber ( I have not noticed this on firing remaining rounds, but I admittedly did not look once the rifle was firing) What would a normal round feed be in this rifle? Having a round jump into the chamber is strange (even in a Mossberg).
Thanks again.
C.W.
The round "jumping" into the chamber is normal for the rear tube fed Mossy's. If the round doesn't fully chamber the bolt will finish the job of fully chambering the round. So no problem there!!!

If the hammer is staying back, check the firing pin. Remove the action from the stock, unscrew the breach plug and remove the "guts". The "guts should include the bolt, (with associated parts, including the firing pin) the hammer, the mainspring, the retracting spring, the retracting spring plunger, and the retracting spring bushing. This assembly will come out in one piece. Turn it over and the firing pin should pretty much just drop out on its own unless it really dirty, but even if its really dirty it should still come out pretty easy. Now if there is a burr or some other damage, as from a broken firing pin you may have to do a little prying, but even so it should still come out fairly easy.

Your hammer and firing pin should look like the ones on the left. They are the old style.:( Not the best design and they are known for breaking. The new style hammer and firing pin are on the right. If you decide to switch to the new style firing pin you have to get the new style hammer also as the new style pin WILL NOT work with the old style hammer. As a normal part of my inspection and cleaning I completely disassemble, deburr and clean the "guts" of my semi-auto's!!! Bolt guns get the same treatment, but the process is a little different as obviously they are built a little different!!!:rolleyes:
You might also want to check how far the firing pin protrudes from the front of the bolt, this can be done without completely disassembling the bolt, but do deburr the bolt first. A 6" fine file is my preference but some 220 silicon or aluminum carbide on a good flat surface will do just fine too. Use a small standard screwdriver to scrape any crud out of the firing pin slot in the bolt while you have the firing pin out. After the firing pin and firing pin slot have been squared away put the firing pin back in the bolt. Make sure the firing pin is pushed back and in contact with the hammer. Make sure that you don't use too much pressure as you can actually push the hammer away from the rear of the bolt, thats a bad thing as you now will have an inaccurate idea of how far the firing pin protrudes.
You can also check the firing pin strike by pulling a bullet from a round, dump the powder and put that empty shell in your rifle then pull the trigger. If the priming mixture popped you had a good enough firing pin strike. If the priming compound didn't pop, then you had a light firing pin strike and you may need a new firing pin. Let us know what you find.
God Bless, Frank.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I took the rifle down and found burrs on the rear of the firing pin, removed them with a file so that is smooth. I also found a metal shaving/burr built up in the extractor groove at the rear of the barrel. I am going to clean/clear the groove and try to cycle a few rounds by hand ( carefully!! I do not want to join the indoor shooting club).
I will look again, but from memory I do not recall a notch in the firing pin, gotta check that out. Glad to know the feeding is "normal" (what ever that is) for this gun, still it is a little wierd.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
8,236 Posts
Nah, man thats...

I took the rifle down and found burrs on the rear of the firing pin, removed them with a file so that is smooth. I also found a metal shaving/burr built up in the extractor groove at the rear of the barrel. I am going to clean/clear the groove and try to cycle a few rounds by hand ( carefully!! I do not want to join the indoor shooting club).
Aw come on!!! Where is your sense of adventure??:rolleyes: I like to keep to a 6x5 piece of pressure treated in front of the muzzle when testing with live rounds!!! As I am a member of the "unintentional indoor shooting club".:rolleyes:

I will look again, but from memory I do not recall a notch in the firing pin, gotta check that out.
Hmmmm, then it appears that you have a broken firing if you don't have a square notch at the back end of your firing pin. The firing pin should be captured by the hammer and move with the hammer.
Glad to know the feeding is "normal" (what ever that is) for this gun, still it is a little wierd.
Nah man thats way cool, the way those rear tube fed Mossy's spit that round into the chamber!!!
God Bless, Frank.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The more I think about the firing pin, the more certain I am that it is square at the end. I picked the rifle up at a gun show (!00.00) and do not know any history behind it. Maybe a worse repairman than I was the previous owner.
Which firing pin would Vic Havlin have for the rifle and what am I in for replacing it? Your photographs will be a great help, thank you.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
8,236 Posts
Check these links...

http://www.geocities.com/sloopitol2/diss351cbkc.JPG
This link will take you to an exploded view of a model that should be identical to yours as far as internal parts go. This is from the third "STICKY" at the top of the Mossy forum page.

http://personal.swayzee.com/jayb/firing%20pins%20a.jpg
This link takes you to the 2nd page of the middle "STICKY" at the top of the Mossy forum page. The two firing pins at the bottom are the old and new versions of the pin used in your rifle. Since your rifle is a KA I would guess that it originally came with the old style pin and hammer from the factory, however it might have been changed to the new style at some point in its past, although I would not consider that a very likely posibility, BUT it is possible!!!
Take a good close look at the picture that I posted and compare your pin to the ones in the picture. Have your firing pin in your hand, don't try to do this from memory.:1t It should take you about 2 minutes to get the "guts" (aka "bolt assembly, complete", from the #64 Component Parts list) out of the receiver once you have the rifle and a quarter or a screwdriver in your hands. 1) Loosen the hold-down screw. 2) Remove the barreled action from the stock. 3) Unscrew and set aside the receiver cap. 4) Pull the cocking knob back to the rear most opening and pull the cocking knob out. 5) The retracting spring bushing should be sticking out of the rear of the receiver 1/4" or so, grab it and pull the "guts" (aka the bolt assembly) out of the receiver. 6) Turn the bolt assem upside down give it a tap or two and the firing pin should drop out into your hand!!! Thats it!!! Then compare it to the picture I posted, and you should know for certain if you need a new firing pin or not!!! Keep us posted.
God Bless, Frank.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks a million, you da man!!!

I am the owner of a broken firing pin. Now I have to figure out how that rifle fired at all! That gun should never have fired in the condition that it was in; I guess that it just wouldn't quit.
Back at the range next week.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top