Nice pics! Some of the leading and carbon fouling might be filling subsurface pits & therefore impossible to remove. You’re definitely getting close, though. I admire your tenacity & patience.
DrGunner
DrGunner
It just won't come clean!!!
I purchased a 1980 Remington LH 581 back in December. Instead of giving the gun a good cleaning, I ran a bore snake through it a few time, it looked good so tried it out. I was very happy with the way the gun shot for the first 300 or so rounds then accuracy started to deteriorate. So I gathered up 3 brass brushes , a ten pack of nylon brushes and 500 patches. I'm using Boretech rimfire cleaner and Hoppe's #9. I've worn out the three brass brushes and used about 300 patches. The Rimfire cleaner will eat the brass brushes so going forward just nylon with the Boretech and Hoppe's for the brass. UPS dropped off some more cleaning supplies today and I've spent about 2 hours this afternoon cleaning, probably 50 more patches.
It seems just as dirty after all this as it did when I first started.
Now I remember why I bought a Foul out system years ago.
Has anyone ever tried Easyoff Oven Cleaner?
It seems just as dirty after all this as it did when I first started.
Now I remember why I bought a Foul out system years ago.
Has anyone ever tried Easyoff Oven Cleaner?
61 - 80 of 86 Posts
Couple of thoughts here.
Now that the cleaning process, so far, has revealed that there is indeed rifling still there, would it be worthwhile plugging the barrel (at chamber end?) and filling it with Kroil and leaving it sit for a day or two, or more? I know from experience that Kroil will free up just about any seized up thread by migrating its way through the fissures in the crud. Maybe it will get underneath the leading and allow for easier removal? I have heard of folk eventually being able to push long shards of leading out of a barrel when it is sufficiently freed up.
Other thing.
Going back to this amazing thread [ HOW TO make GUNNER TOOLS ], which I only found from the link in this one, there is reference ( post #73 ) to quenching the brass rods as part of the softening process. I'm not convinced that this is correct. Brass work-hardens, and we know that annealing of centrefire cartridge cases only requires appropriate heating. No quenching is required for that process - it achieves nothing, other than preventing burns from inadvertent contact.
Now that the cleaning process, so far, has revealed that there is indeed rifling still there, would it be worthwhile plugging the barrel (at chamber end?) and filling it with Kroil and leaving it sit for a day or two, or more? I know from experience that Kroil will free up just about any seized up thread by migrating its way through the fissures in the crud. Maybe it will get underneath the leading and allow for easier removal? I have heard of folk eventually being able to push long shards of leading out of a barrel when it is sufficiently freed up.
Other thing.
Going back to this amazing thread [ HOW TO make GUNNER TOOLS ], which I only found from the link in this one, there is reference ( post #73 ) to quenching the brass rods as part of the softening process. I'm not convinced that this is correct. Brass work-hardens, and we know that annealing of centrefire cartridge cases only requires appropriate heating. No quenching is required for that process - it achieves nothing, other than preventing burns from inadvertent contact.
I found that the chamber handles became brittle after heating & bending to shape; if I tried to reshape them after initial forming, many would snap. I found that by slow heating and quenching them, they became much more pliable. That was early on in the process when I was using Hoppes rods, and I now believe that the problem was in the purity of their brass. Since I have switched to using .25 inch solid brass rods ordered from different suppliers, that problem seems to have solved itself.Couple of thoughts here.
Now that the cleaning process, so far, has revealed that there is indeed rifling still there, would it be worthwhile plugging the barrel (at chamber end?) and filling it with Kroil and leaving it sit for a day or two, or more? I know from experience that Kroil will free up just about any seized up thread by migrating its way through the fissures in the crud. Maybe it will get underneath the leading and allow for easier removal? I have heard of folk eventually being able to push long shards of leading out of a barrel when it is sufficiently freed up.
Other thing.
Going back to this amazing thread [ HOW TO make GUNNER TOOLS ], which I only found from the link in this one, there is reference ( post #73 ) to quenching the brass rods as part of the softening process. I'm not convinced that this is correct. Brass work-hardens, and we know that annealing of centrefire cartridge cases only requires appropriate heating. No quenching is required for that process - it achieves nothing, other than preventing burns from inadvertent contact.
What you are quoting is a thread going back almost 10 years documenting the evolution of their design and creation.
I am not a metallurgist or machinist, just a garage hobbyist doing my thing to the best of my ability. Everything that I post here is from direct experimentation and trial and error, so please forgive me and do not sick the grammar police on me if I use the wrong terminology. Please educate me, if you know, What the proper nomenclature is for what I am describing...
EDIT: Sincere apologies to the OP for the thread divert,
No1_49er- Let’s take this discussion into my “How to make Gunner Tools” thread, it is open and all advice and input is sincerely welcome.
Respectfully,
DrGunner
I really did not want to mention this. It is very serious stuff. You have to plug the bore and only put into the bore. Do not get on bluing, It will take bluing right to the white steel. Don't get on stock finish ect. Bad stuff,I worked on it for about 30 minutes last night with the bore paste. It definitely made a difference. I used patches but will try it with a brush.^
I have an Outer's Foul Out unit but ran out of the Leadout solution long ago.
Gun cleaning miracle home remedy (louisianasportsman.com)
I did 5 sets of JB Bore paste on a patch. A set consist of one wet patch straight through the barrel. This patch is put aside. Then I shift the barrel so the crown is against a stop and run a patch with JB Bore Paste back and forth from chamber to crown 10 times. Then I run the wet patch I saved straight through the barrel, then a dry patch, then a wet pat, then a dry patch, the a wet patch to wet the bore and save it.
I did this 5 times since the pictures I posted earlier. I honestly don't see any difference. I think I'm at a point of diminished returns with the bore paste.
![Automotive lighting Automotive tire Circle Auto part Automotive wheel system]()
I did this 5 times since the pictures I posted earlier. I honestly don't see any difference. I think I'm at a point of diminished returns with the bore paste.
Yea Vinegar is very acidic and aggressive but it will dissolve and clean heavy deposits. But I always felt it was kind of too dangerous to use unless you had a stubborn situation where you needed something that aggressive. A lot of old timers and shooters swear by it.
50/50 hydrogen peroxide, white vinegar
50/50 hydrogen peroxide, white vinegar
I like how simple that is. I would hate to mess up the blueing on this barrel. It's really nice for its age.I really did not want to mention this. It is very serious stuff. You have to plug the bore and only put into the bore. Do not get on bluing, It will take bluing right to the white steel. Don't get on stock finish ect. Bad stuff,
Gun cleaning miracle home remedy (louisianasportsman.com)
The solution may be harmless, but the reaction with lead is highly toxic.
Looking at the bore scope picture I think you are suffering from pitting from the lack of cleaning and/or the use of corrosive primed ammo. Fouling will build up in the pits that you will not get out. Youi might try WipeOut to get what is left out, other than that I have no idea of what to do other than shoot it and clean often.
There is a product that you can use to coat the bore that may help in future cleaning, I can look up a discussion of it on another web site if you are interested. I learned about it from a writer I have communicated with several times, someone with extensive hands on who does not mimic other writers but actually proves out what he talks about.
A note about JB bore paste, it has the grit of jewelers rouge i.e. shines up rings and other jewelry to get that final shine. It has its place but not deep cleaning is not it.
There is a product that you can use to coat the bore that may help in future cleaning, I can look up a discussion of it on another web site if you are interested. I learned about it from a writer I have communicated with several times, someone with extensive hands on who does not mimic other writers but actually proves out what he talks about.
A note about JB bore paste, it has the grit of jewelers rouge i.e. shines up rings and other jewelry to get that final shine. It has its place but not deep cleaning is not it.
Are you using Kroil with the JB Paste? They work in concert with each other. The Kroil creeps under the fouling to loosen the bond, and the JB gently wipes it out. That said, it sure looks like pitting in the picture to me.I did 5 sets of JB Bore paste on a patch. A set consist of one wet patch straight through the barrel. This patch is put aside. Then I shift the barrel so the crown is against a stop and run a patch with JB Bore Paste back and forth from chamber to crown 10 times. Then I run the wet patch I saved straight through the barrel, then a dry patch, then a wet pat, then a dry patch, the a wet patch to wet the bore and save it.
I did this 5 times since the pictures I posted earlier. I honestly don't see any difference. I think I'm at a point of diminished returns with the bore paste.
View attachment 299922
Using patches I think you are absolutely right about JB Bore paste. However I decided to try an earlier suggestion of using JB bore paste on a brass brush. Four brass brushes to be precise because it eats them very quickly.Looking at the bore scope picture I think you are suffering from pitting from the lack of cleaning and/or the use of corrosive primed ammo. Fouling will build up in the pits that you will not get out. Youi might try WipeOut to get what is left out, other than that I have no idea of what to do other than shoot it and clean often.
There is a product that you can use to coat the bore that may help in future cleaning, I can look up a discussion of it on another web site if you are interested. I learned about it from a writer I have communicated with several times, someone with extensive hands on who does not mimic other writers but actually proves out what he talks about.
A note about JB bore paste, it has the grit of jewelers rouge i.e. shines up rings and other jewelry to get that final shine. It has its place but not deep cleaning is not it.
I started with one of the brushes I had been using with bore cleaner and slathered it down with JB. This brush was still tight in the barrel before I started. After ten passes it started to loosen up and by twenty passes was shot. It will work in a .20 caliber now. I gooped up another used brush and hit it for twenty more passes, then got a new brush, twenty more passes and another new brush. Twenty passes for it and started patching out the barrel. I did not patch out the barrel at all during all the brushing, only after I was through.
Success!!! Dig these groovy photos. There is still some lead but the carbon is pretty much gone.
Oh the joy. What a great day. I finally got the carbon cleaned out and also got to use the words slathered, gooped and groovy in a post.
I bought some peroxide and vinegar and will fill the barrel tonight and let it sit till morning to see if it will nuke that lead.
Pitting is indeed present and is now visible.Are you using Kroil with the JB Paste? They work in concert with each other. The Kroil creeps under the fouling to loosen the bond, and the JB gently wipes it out. That said, it sure looks like pitting in the picture to me.
Bummer. Somebody must have worked hard at that. With modern ammo, bore corrosion usually isn't an issue. I've seen 10/22's that have gone decades without a cleaning and the bore shines right up. Perhaps a liner might be the answer?Pitting is indeed present and is now visible.
Shoot it first, and run at least 100 rounds of lubed lead ammo through it to see how it shoots- then clean it as normal, not OCD clean, and shoot at least 100 through it again to see what you have; it might do surprisingly well & not need a liner.Bummer. Somebody must have worked hard at that. With modern ammo, bore corrosion usually isn't an issue. I've seen 10/22's that have gone decades without a cleaning and the bore shines right up. Perhaps a liner might be the answer?
As I said in a prior post, I've been using borescopes going back 20 years, rather consistently over the last 10 years. The images that I achieve through my medical grade borescopes would blow your mind, unfortunately they are not amenable to digital photographs because you have to use a surgical eyepiece, but the magnification and image quality are outstanding. I have scopes at different angulation's for seeing and magnifying the directly adjacent bore wall, viewing partially down the bore, and wide angle long view. The only way that I could produce postable images with them would be to bring home the Uber expensive OR video imaging equipment that belongs nowhere near my garage, LOL.
I can tell you with 100% confidence that what you see in a borescope does NOT always correlate with stellar accuracy on the line.
I would not worry overmuch about getting all of the fouling out of the pits after this cleaning marathon. They are going to fill back up every time you shoot it, and if you are to OCD about cleaning the pits out every time, especially if you use JB repeatedly, your problem will not be fouling, it will be wear & tear from over cleaning. I get that you want it 100% clean this time, and I say go for it, this has been very instructive for us all to watch. Once you've seasoned it again, I would only clean to see shiny lands and grooves, and leave the pits filled moving forward. In the early part of this thread, I was against using JB for a reason - as JDWinCO astutely stated, JB is an abrasive on par with Jewelers rougeand while shiny looks good in a borescope, you are removing metal. Get it clean, then shoot it with the knowledge that they have filled with lube and carbon, possibly a little bit of lead, but none of the corrosive stuff that created the damage in the first place. If you go back at it to clean the pits every time with JB, sooner or later I would bet you a new barrel that accuracy will fall off. Obviously, if you get it clean and shoot it and you have a 12 gauge pattern, a liner makes all the sense in the world.
Just my little old 2¢, FWIW
DrGunner
I've got one of those SK Magazine packs with 500 rounds just itching to slide down this barrel.Shoot it first, and run at least 100 rounds of lubed lead ammo through it to see how it shoots- then clean it as normal, not OCD clean, and shoot at least 100 through it again to see what you have; it might do surprisingly well & not need a liner.
As I said in a prior post, I've been using borescopes going back 20 years, rather consistently over the last 10 years. The images that I achieve through my medical grade borescopes would blow your mind, unfortunately they are not amenable to digital photographs because you have to use a surgical eyepiece, but the magnification and image quality are outstanding. I have scopes at different angulation's for seeing and magnifying the directly adjacent bore wall, viewing partially down the bore, and wide angle long view. The only way that I could produce postable images with them would be to bring home the Uber expensive OR video imaging equipment that belongs nowhere near my garage, LOL.
I can tell you with 100% confidence that what you see in a borescope does NOT always correlate with stellar accuracy on the line.
I would not worry overmuch about getting all of the fouling out of the pits after this cleaning marathon. They are going to fill back up every time you shoot it, and if you are to OCD about cleaning the pits out every time, especially if you use JB repeatedly, your problem will not be fouling, it will be wear & tear from over cleaning. I get that you want it 100% clean this time, and I say go for it, this has been very instructive for us all to watch. Once you've seasoned it again, I would only clean to see shiny lands and grooves, and leave the pits filled moving forward. In the early part of this thread, I was against using JB for a reason - as JDWinCO astutely stated, JB is an abrasive on par with Jewelers rougeand while shiny looks good in a borescope, you are removing metal. Get it clean, then shoot it with the knowledge that they have filled with lube and carbon, possibly a little bit of lead, but none of the corrosive stuff that created the damage in the first place. If you go back at it to clean the pits every time with JB, sooner or later I would bet you a new barrel that accuracy will fall off. Obviously, if you get it clean and shoot it and you have a 12 gauge pattern, a liner makes all the sense in the world.
Just my little old 2¢, FWIW
DrGunner
All I'm asking of this barrel is to keep all shots in 1" at 50 yards. It was doing better than this when I started but 1" would be okay. This is squirrel hunting rifle and I don't take shots over 25 yards. I am anal about one shot per squirrel to the point that if I miss, I let the squirrel go. Because of this I work in as close as I can.
If I do trash the barrel, 581 barrels are fairly common. I've got a spare setting here on my computer desk. 580 barrels will also work.
Thats a 100% reasonable and likely attainable goal, and if you were seeing better than that before, it's likely just a matter of seasoning it back in & enjoying it. I sincerely appreciate the time, material & effort you've put into this thread; you even bought a borescope and are sharing all your observations. Contributions like yours, here, are what I believe have always made RFC a great place to share & learn.I've got one of those SK Magazine packs with 500 rounds just itching to slide down this barrel.
All I'm asking of this barrel is to keep all shots in 1" at 50 yards. It was doing better than this when I started but 1" would be okay. This is squirrel hunting rifle and I don't take shots over 25 yards. I am anal about one shot per squirrel to the point that if I miss, I let the squirrel go. Because of this I work in as close as I can.
If I do trash the barrel, 581 barrels are fairly common. I've got a spare setting here on my computer desk. 580 barrels will also work.
Good show, brother!
DrG
Cleaned up better than I thought it would. If you find it hard to clean up after shooting it a few get back tome about the bore coating, a bit inexpensive in the long run compared to barrel replacement, though I see you have one already.
Corrosion and pitting is the main reason I clean my 22LR's and Kroil oil the bores. In a Humid climate you would be surprised how fast the corrosion can happen and get all yucky under the fouling. I try to never let them sit more than a Month if I'm not shooting them. Plus most of the time they shoot very well clean with only one to a few fouler rounds.Actually Sometimes but not always a clean barrel and one fouler round and the next five shots are the tightest it will ever see. Have had that happen a few times. Sometimes it seemed to take 20 rounds to come in. I really never get too concerned or into it one way or the other. But A pitted bore may take a good bit of shooting to come in.
Great Pics ccwilder3
Great Pics ccwilder3
I will absolutely do that. I appreciate the help.Cleaned up better than I thought it would. If you find it hard to clean up after shooting it a few get back tome about the bore coating, a bit inexpensive in the long run compared to barrel replacement, though I see you have one already.
The absolute "BEST" and most effective carbon removal I've ever experienced is sadly not longer available. It was called "KREEN", and it was made by Kano Labs. Kano Labs makes the KROIL so many of you seem to like.. I've used it to clean up many years worth of hard, hard baked on carbon on automotive valves, pistons, and pushrods, and I used it once to clean up a set of fuel injectors that were so carbon fouled that they would no longer fire. I used to buy it by the gallon to run a pint through my own fuel system every 3000 miles. On the classic cars I used to own, a pint now and then in the gas kept the carbs and valves squeeky clean. If it was still available I'd be using it to clean my rifle barrels, One gallon would last me the rest of my shooting days.I thought the OP mentioned that he bought the rifle used.
If the previous owner shot lots of copper washed bulk ammo, could that cause copper fouling that was then later covered over by shooting lubed lead rounds? I’d bet he’s dealing with removing layer upon layer of fouling. I’d also say that while I completely understand his goal of getting the bore 100% clean, he may well find that the rifles accuracy is not the best when it’s sparkling clean. He’ll likely have to shoot a number of rounds of his ammo of choice to season the bore & bring it back to it’s full potential.
DrG
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