[jaia]

....if your rifle likes a particular brand of ammunition?

I realized I've never read of, or heard of, a specific method for determination.

Stop laughing. I'm serious here.
What procedure defines "like"?

I hear it and read it all the time.
You have to find the brand y'er rifle "likes"!
My rifle doesn't "like" that brand.

How do you determine the rifle's personal preference?
I need to understand in order to try it.
Apparently I've been going about it incorrectly.
Haven't found any brands my rifle likes.

 

[Rhodester]

jaia, you must stay awake all night thinking about what to post.

My CZ 452 likes several brands especially SK rifle match. So I define “likes“ as “shoots well”.

The problem is, I don’t know how to “shoot well“.

Rhodester

 

[jaia]

It's worse than that Rhodester, it wakes me up out of a sound sleep.
Things that make me go Hmmmmmmm?

While driving in to the office and self-caffienating, I gave it more thought.

Is "like" a sliding scale? Is it distance based? Are there a required number of shots to work from?
Is it derived from long term documented data or a memory of a particularly good group?
Is "like" specifically applied solely to anecdotal reports or opinions, because facts and logic ruin discussions?

If it's cheap, chambers, goes bang and exits the barrel, is that good enough for "like"?
Or is there a metric to be used? A ratio of distance to the number of shots that hit center?

Maybe my ignorance of the required procedure is preventing my rifles from liking any specific brand of cartridges.

 

[FlysAlot]

Take a rifle.
Take 2-5 brands of ammo.
Test each
smallest group = what your rifle likes!


That Day, those weather conditions, how you held your mouth that day...

 

[jaia]

Fly, does that smallest group have to hit where I was aiming?
Does it have to be repeatable, or is a single event all that's necessary?
Is the rifle allowed to change it's preference if later results conflict with the original determination?

 

[Penage Guy]

Haven't found any brands my rifle likes.

The origin of the idea of "brands my rifle likes" may be rather mundane and pedestrian. Shooters who used high velocity or bulk ammo discovered that if they used an entry level "match-type" of ammo -- e.g. SK, Eley, Wolf etc. -- discovered that these generally produced much better accuracy. The idea was born that finding the brand your rifle likes gives improved performance.
_ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___

While there's no such thing as a rifle/ammo likeometer, there are likely certain characteristics that cause an ammo to perform better than another. Among these are consistent bullet geometry (including the all-important heel) and consistent loading, coupled of course with consistent MVs and a low ES. These characteristics may vary between lots of the same brand and variety (e.g. Lapua Center X).

None of these important characteristics are exclusive to any one brand of .22LR match ammo, and are almost certainly never characteristic of more inexpensive varieties.

While many lots of ammo with "good" characteristics shoot well across many good rifles, it's not guaranteed to perform equally well across all rifles. Like different lots with unique characteristics, some barrels/bores can be unique and may respond somewhat differently to ammo that shoots well in other barrels.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

does that smallest group have to hit where I was aiming?

If very small groups don't hit where you were aiming, adjust the sights. If your groups are not small, you're outta luck, at least with that ammo, perhaps with that rifle, too, regardless of how the sights are adjusted.

 

[Al the Infidel]

Price... its always about the money Jaia.

 

[Phil in Alabama]

It's not that complex. Certain rifles will shoot better with particular ammunitions, that is a fact. If it were not there would be no need for any testing whatsoever, accuracy would strictly follow ammunition price/quality. Some barrels simply perform better with a particular shape of bullet, lubricant, velocity range or other variable.

Why would some shooters choose Eley or RWS or Lapua exclusively? On a non competitive shooters scale, why would our hypothetical shooter in question choose CCI over Winchester, or vice versa for any particular rifle? Simply because it happens to perform better out of his particular rifle.

IF you happen to be using a target rifle with a barrel tuner you can negate some of the ammo selection chore by adjusting the barrel harmonics to suit the ammunition instead of chasing an ammunition to suit the harmonics of the barrel as it came.

 

[jaia]

But Al, that would mean it's not about the rifle's "likes".
That would make it the shooter's "like's", that's even more of an anecdotal reference.

PG, the concept isn't mine, it's an accepted part of rimfire discussions.
Pedestrian and mundane it may be, but it appears to be the approved method of explaining results.

Brand based preference decided how? 5 shots 2 years ago last Tuesday at 25 yards, offhand?
200 shots at 200 yards off the bench? 10 shots at 50 yards prone with bipod and bag?
How is it determined? In a Lapua tunnel with computer recorded data?

Phil, I've tried every type of rimfire cartridge type and brand I can purchase.
What the rifle "liked" this week, it "disliked" the next week.
Same brand, same brick, same lot number, but chronograph numbers and results totally different.
How am I supposed to determine a preference based on ever changing results
caused by ever changing cartridge quality on the assembly line?

At least I've learned what my rifles don't "like".
They don't like cartridges that look as if they were dropped on the floor and kicked around before boxing and shipping.
They don't like ammunition with large muzzle velocity differences.
They don't like cartridges that are visibly asymmetric or show uneven or tilted seating.

 

[toomanyguns]

Certain rifles will shoot better with particular ammunitions, that is a fact. If it were not, there would be no need for any testing whatsoever; accuracy would strictly follow ammunition price/quality. Some barrels simply perform better with a particular shape of bullet, lubricant, velocity range or other variable.

This, IMO, is justification for owning multiple rimfires.

Especially true since it's not always easy to find SK or whatever.

 

[jaia]

....accuracy will strictly follow ammunition quality.

That I can agree with.

It's not about the price. I've bought high end 22lr that threw strays in multiple rifles.
The chrony numbers showed that the mv's were all over the place.

I've bought cheap ammo that produced better results than supposed match quality brands.
But the next box tried was back to being bulk plinking ammo.

Dang rifle...keeps changing it's preferences.


I can honestly say I identify myself in this manner....

 

[Phil in Alabama]

My Kimber groups well if not great with anything from SK/Lapua, some Eley, and some RWS. The least expensive SK will outgroup all but the most expensive Eley and RWS. When you get into lower priced ammo, Federal 712 and the cheaper version of it the American Eagle 38 grain hp will outgroup all other high velocity. The Federal 38 grain hp doesn't test especially great or look good either but it stomps all of the other Federal, all CCI and all Winchester for accuracy. I don't know why. I don't have sufficient scope magnification nor enough dollars anymore to do the extensive testing that you do Jaia. I mostly agree with you. The majority of accuracy does directly follow ammunition quality. The other portion of it is matching barrel harmonics and chamber fit in my opinion.

Many people spend too much time and dollars pursuing the nth degree of accuracy for no real usable reason. Hunters can only take advantage of so much accuracy. How many of us are actually competitors? The rest are eating up money shooting holes on paper to accomplish nothing.

 

[FlysAlot]

1. Fly, does that smallest group have to hit where I was aiming?
2. Does it have to be repeatable, or is a single event all that's necessary?
3. Is the rifle allowed to change its preference if (3a) later results conflict with the original determination?

1. Maybe, if you don't hit where you are aiming you have other issues.
2. See the REALLY small Print at the bottom of my post
3. If it does, who cares/How would you know? Short answer... It's a mechanical device they don't have 'moods' so, no. (Part 2) Better, the enemy of the good. (Voltaire)

 

[FlysAlot]

I used to fly with a guy who was CONVINCED that since every other airplane flew at 41,000 feet, 41,200 feet would be a smoother & faster ride. He was a 'Ford' pilot. Had a better idea. aka "Better, the enemy of the good" I do ask every rifle I own how they are feeling that day, and do they WANT to try a different ammo. If they say 'no' I let it alone.

 

[joe45c]

My problem is i have 12 .22 rifles and lots of different kinds of .22 ammo with different velocities and being old i can't remember which ammo is works best with which gun.

 

[Howland937]

My rifles are similar to myself and I treat it much the same way. I like a nice thick, juicy steak...but a hamburger will sustain me til the next meal just as well. Much cheaper too. So I'll pony up for what I really like occasionally, but mostly eat "good enough" in the meantime.

Likewise, I'll shoot expensive/match ammo just to see if my rifles will shoot to the best of my abilities... sometimes to check the rifle, sometimes checking myself...but typically feed them a diet of good enough the rest of the time. Good enough being consistently hitting what I'm aiming at. I'm not a competitive eater or shooter, so my good enough may differ from others'.

 

[FlysAlot]

My problem is i have 12 .22 rifles and lots of different kinds of .22 ammo with different velocities and being old i can't remember which ammo is works best with which gun.

Painters tape on the stock works for me. Hint, write the ammo choice on the tape before you stick it to the rifle.

 

[Clover58]

All I know is the more money I spend the better results I get the less money I have.

 

[Toomany22s]

I agree , its the Ammo , not the gun given that it isn’t defective , that determines , the guns performance. And while I had some rare but great performance from various bulk ammo , the higher priced target grade ammo, imho, has a greater occurrence of better performance. Alas , ive also had a few bricks of expensive junk.
But , thats the fun of it, “ Lets see what happens today”
I always take multiple guns to the range , and multiple types of ammo , And various calibers. If the 22 lr s are shooting hot, then I shoot them all day. But if they aren’t, then i just move on and shoot something else.

In all honesty I can say if all i had was a bucket of golden bullets , Id still shoot them and have a ton of fun. Id just use bigger targets🙃

 

[Penage Guy]

PG, the concept isn't mine, it's an accepted part of rimfire discussions.
Pedestrian and mundane it may be, but it appears to be the approved method of explaining results.

Jaia, I know the concept isn't yours. It's an old myth, one that has spread on the internet and by those who don't know better. I was offering a suggestion about why some shooters and posters make the mistake of believing it's the brand that matters most and why, as you note, "it appears to be the approved method of explaining results."

On a more general note on the topic, the point is that it's like when the HV or bulk ammo shooter discovers that better made ammo performs better. He may not know that ammo quality varies between manufacturers. He may not know a thing about .22LR ammo except what he experiences: "Wow! I just shot some SK out of my .22 rifle. It sure likes it better than the Winchester and Remington .22 ammo I've been using." And another vote for my rifle likes X brand of ammo is born.

More serious shooters will usually understand that ammo quality varies between and among different brands or manufacturers. A rifle may shoot the SK that's been put through it well, but not all SK is equal and will perform equally well..