[Guest]

I purchased a Kimber Classic as a squirrel hunting rifle. After the third or fourth shot, it groups extremely well at 50 yards with three different ammos. The problem.....the first shot is never at POA. Sometimes it's off by an inch or more. The second walks closer and, most of the time, the third starts what turns out to be an excellent group if I continue on that target.

I've had this problem with many excellent rimfires, Anschutzs included. Especially my benchguns.

The gun hasn't been cleaned. It's the same ammo I was using when I finished the last time. I'm aware of barrel conditioning. I can find no pressure or bedding problems.

It's not practical to fire a few warm-up shots when hunting.

Can anyone explain this phenomena and how do you fix it?

Thanks in advance.

 

[MangesMade]

Billings and Phil.....I'm Just Curious

After your rilfes are shooting correctly and you take a break.
How long would the break have to be before you would have the first shot Flyer again?
Thanks

 

[2594]

barrel temp

Here's what I suggest for zeroing your rifle before you go hunting: The problem is that every shot you put through your barrel, the barrel heats up and changes the point of impact. While target shooting, this isn't a problem, but for hunting, as you pointed out, is a problem. What I suggest is when zeroing your rifle for hunting, zero it on a cold barrel. So, after shooting one shot, wait until the barrel is completely cool before taking the next shot and so on untill you're satified with the zero. This way you can be confident that your rifle will put that first and most crucial bullet where you want it on a cold barrel. Yes, you will still have the problem of the zero changing on a follow up shot, but if you kill what ever your shooting in the first shot, it won't be a problem! One shot, one kill.

 

[Guest]

Phil...thanks for helping out here.

Mine has the same symptoms.

MM & MN, thanks for the replies.

As to the suggestion about sighting in for the initial shot- the flyer........tried that. The problem- the flyer is inconsistant. Most times, it's at 2 o'clock but sometimes 1 or 11.

I called Kimber and was nicely told that it was the nature of the beast. Annoying, but I may send it back if I want. I'm going to wait on warmer weather, run some more through it and try to get some type of pattern.

It's pretty, but it's got to shoot.

 

[MangesMade]

Phil.....

(((Manges- it usually takes several hours to overnight for mine to start slinging the first shot away from the group. Usually one or two shots to get it going and then its good for the rest of the day))).
Phil, if that be the case, sounds like to me that warming of the barrel has nothing to do with it? This is a Question, Not a statement.
I've heard about a lot of rifles that do that. A friend of mine had a Reminton 40X that he said was really bad about it.....he passed it on.
If you can shoot a round and it would be good for several hours to maybe all day. Couldn't a squirrel hunter just shoot a couple rounds into the ground right before reaching the "Happy Hunting Ground"?
Oil Well.....If one should figure out the Remedy to the Problem it would be like "The Cure to Cancer", or Sumphen like that.

 

[Kent Owens]

My Classic may have the same problem. I was shooting groups this past Saturday. I have hunted a lot with this particular rifle and have had very good luck hitting almost everything I've shot at. However, I had not seriously shot targets with it until this past Saturday. I'm wondering if it's the first round from the magazine getting mangled some how. I noticed that sometimes the first shot would be 1/2'' high and 1/2'' right and the remaining 4 shots in a tight 1/4" to 3/8" group with Eley Match EPS ammo. With Wolf MT it seemed to shoot more consistent groups, just a tad bigger overall. I was using the magazine for loading and I didn't try hand feeding it. Phil, does yours act the same way when you feed each round by hand. I know that's a dumb question, but I had to ask. I'm going to tinker and test some more with mine. I noticed the same with the different lubes on the bullets--it DID NOT like the change--took it a while to tighten back up.

 

[Kent Owens]

Phil,
I think you may have something with the torsional stress idea. I've shot my Kimbers so little that I really don't know what to expect from them. I know I like the balance, the trigger, and for the weight rifle that they are, they are very accurate. Thanks for the bolt polishing idea, I have been meaning to do that. It really helped my NSS-522 when I did that and opened up the extractor a tad to let the rims of the cartridges slip under it--kept the cartridges from kind of ramping into the chamber and scraping lead. Sounds like you've checked every angle on the research. I have a Shepherd scope on the Kimber that I've been hunting with and it's a bit hard to target shoot with it--but it's a great hunting scope. I may put one of my 24X target scopes on it and see how it does-- just for a test.

 

[MangesMade]

Phil.....

Why don't you head a project to get everyone that's interested to meticulously check their rifles and keep notes.....Maybe someone could make a break through.....you could go down in History as the Father of Curing the First Shot Flyer Problem, or Sumphen like that. Shoot, it's worth a try.....
I don't know many serous BR shooters but I think the normal shooter would come closer to solving the problem than a BR shooter....."My personal opinion".....the BR shooter doesn't really care because he can just shoot a couple into the berm or sighter bull.....
Oil Well, Hunters don't have that option

 

[Guest]

Just a thought....

I don't experience this with center fires.

More pressure? No lube?

Other differences....

 

[MangesMade]

Phil.....

Yesterday I shot some Wolf Match Extra at a USBR target.....I forgot to pay attention to the first shot that was fired on the sighter bulls. I had started the target and had shot 6 bulls, when a friend drove up. That was at 4 pm, the temp was "T' shirt warm. My rifle sat on the rest idle while we Shot the Bull. He finally left at 5:35 pm. By now the sun was well behind the trees and the Temperature was falling quick. I started back up on the 7th bull, and hurried up to finish the target. Long story short.....I checked back on the target and I couldn't really tell that I had stopped, the #6 bull was a Ten and the 7th Bull was a 10. Please don't take this like I'm bragging...I'm NOT, believe me, I have nothing to bragg about..... I just wanted to post how my rifle did after it sat. I wish I had took notice of the first shot.
Today I took a break and shot two more USBR targets, but with Wolf match target. I took pains to place the first shot so that I couldn't blame a flyer on me, as I wanted to report back how it did. On a sighter bull, the first round hit at 5 o'clock in the 9 ring just touching into the 10 ring.....It was consisent with the other rounds after it.
Something else, The wolf that I was shooting came in on the December order from Champion Shooters. It was shooting like Remington Bulk Pak, Snap, Crackle, Pop, and I even had one misfire. Has anyone had this problem?
There was such a difference between the Match Extra that the rifle was zeroed to...that I ended up adjusting the scope to Zero the match target. I figured they should have been the same as far as Zero?
This doesn't do much for solving the "First Shot Flier Phenomenon", but I will be more observant to it in the future.
Oil Well, I just wanted to let ya'll know how mine did today.

 

[083]

I've got a Rem 541-THB and it has the same problem with the first two shots being bad flyers. After that it groups very well. I bedded the action and free floated the barrel with no change. It ticked me off so much that I bought a Cooper 57M Classic and that one shoots great from the first shot to the last. A smith told me that a lot of the Remingtons do the same thing. If I was still going to try to "fix" the Remington I would first have the barrel and action threaded instead of the pin job that Rem uses and if that didn't improve it I would have the barrel cryo'ed. If all else fails there is always getting it re-barreled. I know it's very frustrating.

 

[keppler]

Phil, I dont have the first shot flyer problem with either my H/S or my Classic. I will say this tho, out of all the rifles I've owned or even shot, the Kimbers are the best factory rifles hands down, no comparison. I am looking foreward to trying a Cooper but can't seem to talk my wife into it...yet.

 

[nthe10ring]

Bolt Removal

I just recently picked up a Kimber Blue Mountain Classic, gun was mfg in the late 80"s but is in unfired new condition. It seems really nice, but am having heck of a time getting the bolt out for cleaning, there is a release on the left side of receiver, and I have managed to get it out once, but now doesnt seem to release at all, tried the release and trigger, but to no avail. Would appreciate any info that you would care to share.

 

[squirrelyhunter]

first shot flyers

I'm not so sure that it has much to do with the temp of the barrel but more that the bullet has a lubracant on it and that the barrel has to become clean or smooth. I don't know if that quite makes clear what I'm trying to say but when changing ammo it can take five ten or more rounds for the gun to shoot or group again and I think that has to do with the lubracant on the bullet, maybe the same as the cold start flyers.

 

[MangesMade]

First shot flyers.....some of the best target rifles even have that problem. The first few shots are always into the berm or off paper before firing on the target. I've been told when you get a rifle that is dead on with the first shot, It is definitely a keeper. If that's the case, I'd better keep my CZ's.
When you go hunting with a rifle that won't shoot dead on or at least purdy close with the first shot, How do you cope with the problem ?
Oil Well, that could start a completely new thread.....