[sixgun]

Hey guys
I am thinking about building another 10 22 and was thinking about a carb fiber barrel. I dont know anything about them. Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of these things?
Can you put a lot of rounds through one? What is there life span?
Any help would be great
Sixgun:t

 

[marksman1022]

Since you are considering a carbon fiber barrel....I recommend the VQ tensioned carbon fiber barrel.I have 2 and they shoot great.the Cabellas or butler creek (same)are hit and miss at best,allthough I do have 1 that is a shooter I've seen several that were not even close to the factory barrel in accuracy.As far as life expectency...If you take care of it your grand kids should still be shooting it... the bore is not carbon fiber only the external is.The pros to the carbon barrels-Light weight-Quick pointing-accurate-and they look very cool. The cons-not well suited for precise offhand shooting such as silhouette-and well I geuss that is all I can think of against them.I have one I decided to use in a silhouette gun and I have added about 8oz.of lead shot(may add more) to the stock to compinsate for the barrel lightness.Kind of oxy-moronic except I had the barrel allready sitting around collecting dust and knew it was a hella shooter.I think they are a great choice for a walk around gun or where very light weight is needed,but not the best choice for bench or offhand work.

 

[sixgun]

Hey
Thanks so much for the feedback, I have never seen one in person and was just wondering about them. Do they feel sturdy in the hand? you know cheap or flimsy ? Thanks
Six

 

[marksman1022]

The butler creek and cabellas are flimsy...you can actually flex the barrel.The VQ is very sturdy,another well made VQ product.If I understand their process right the barrel is made as a .920 barrel then a bit foreward of the chamber to the muzzle is turned down real thin and the muzzle end threaded,then a carbon fiber sleeve is slipped onto the barrel and a cap is threaded on tightly stretching the bore making it very rigid.That description is very generalized and may not be totally accurate but you can get the idea.All in all it is a well made quality product,and worth the money if you will be carrying the rifle allot.

 

[stratcat]

I totally like my VQ carbon fiber barrel!! the thing looks great and shoots great. My brother has the Magnum Research one that I like but not as much, to me if feels like the muzzle jumps a bit more with his than mine, and I think it's a bit too light. My vote goes for the VQ all the way :t

 

[Dave M.]

I have the Magnum Research barrel and have used it for 5-6 years. I love it for a hunting rifle. Easily head shoot squirrels at 40 yards+. If I change my target gun over I am going to try the Volquartsen barrel, but I have no complaints about the one I am using now.

 

[plchacker]

How about heat? Does the heat stay at the steel core, or dose it get dissapated so quickly that you never notice it? The bbl stays cool to the touch, but is this a good thing or bad?

Just wondering. I thought for a long time that heat was dissapated, then I thought maybe not. This could be one cause of all the trouble with the cheaper bbls. The flex is bad too.

 

[bastogne71]

Carbon Fiber

"The other advantage to the graphite casing is that it dissipates heat much faster than steel" Craig Boddington, Guns & Ammo 2002 Annual.

The first advantage is that you get a barrel as stiff as steel of the same diameter but the weight of a light sporter. If it's made to the quality of a VQ, it's very accurate.

My VQ weighs in at 6 lbs 7 oz with a Leupold 6x42 AO & QRW rings. It will put 5 shots into a half inch at 50 yds with its favorite ammo (CCI Green Tag or Eley Standard).

 

[KCinWashington]

Get the Volquartsen! I just shot mine all weekend, no heat problems, excellent accuracy - absolutely deadly on sage rats out to 110 yards. Shot some at ranges beyond that but elevation and windage was an educated guess.
My Volquartsen replaced a Butler Creek "fiber carbon" barrel that was not even close to this accuracy.
KC

 

[Citoriplus]

I installed a Buttle Creek barrel on my target model rifle because I wanted to use it for hunting (and the budget couldn't afford a VQ). My understanding is that it will also accept HV loadings better because of a different kind of match chamber they use. Stingers are still a no no. So far it's at least as accurate as the heavy factory barrel and better yet seems to prefer Federal bulk HVHP ammo, go figure. So far the best I can get out of it is about 3/4" at 50yds. But it's still new and I haven't tried all the ammo brands I have in "stock" let alone what's on the store shelf.
Wonder if anyone ever tried to "free bore" a .22LR barrel? :t

 

[4097]

Heat Dissipation

The falsehood of composites conducting heat is slowly being dispeled. Composites are an insulator not a conductor. The graphite in the composites is a good condutor but it is in a resin matrix, typicaly epoxy but some times polyester. The resin is an insolator. How do I know? I am a Manufacturing Engineer who worked on the B-2 Bomber and now on the Joint Strike Fighter as well as composites on commercial aircraft. The insulating qualities cause us problems with thick laminates and bonding of precured details.

The military did some studies with these barrels on 50 cal. machine guns. The intent was weight saving. Because the barrels could not reject heat fast enough the barrels failed miserably.

 

[2893]

Get the VQ, I've got a BC "carbon/ black plastic might be impregnated with carbon barrel... might as well get out my sling shot for an accuracy check 1 3/4" to 2 1/4" in at 50 yds.. best ammo some alot worse.

got a GM barrel coming now no more worries!

 

[5298]

CCG

I would be intrested to hear your thoughts on:

a precharged air rifle using carbon etc.
Barrels, airchambers, valveing, new ammo when lead is banned.
Any other angels or sugestions to save weight and improve performance.

HFT (hunter field target) is takeing off here in a big way.

So obviousley I need to build a RIFLE!!!

A llight accurate .177 s. shot. 12 foot pounds limit.
High resistants to weather, and consistancy is needed for these comps.

 

[4097]

The best applications for composites seem to have been load carrying structures such as skins, panels, frames, etc. Smaller parts have not been too succesful because the fiber is not uniformly distributed. Composites are also not wear resistant, and prolong exposures to oils and solvents cause delamination. Composites are excelent in their niche but metals still out perform composites in most applications (remember Poly Motors race engines).

 

[106]

Another Myth

Another "myth" propagated by a gun rag guru:

Carbon Fiber

"The other advantage to the graphite casing is that it dissipates heat much faster than steel." Craig Boddington, Guns & Ammo 2002 Annual.

And from the technical side, a composites engineer:

The falsehood of composites conducting heat is slowly being dispeled. Composites are an insulator not a conductor. The graphite in the composites is a good condutor, but it is in a resin matrix, typicaly epoxy but some times polyester. The resin is an insulator. How do I know? I am a Manufacturing Engineer who worked on the B-2 Bomber and now on the Joint Strike Fighter as well as composites on commercial aircraft. The insulating qualities cause us problems with thick laminates and bonding of precured details.
[ccg on RFC]

And, we wonder where all these "myths" come from...? ?

Thank you ccg...! ! :t :t

How are you on "cryo"...? ? That is another "myth" propagated on shooters...! !

 

[Zircon]

Re: Another Myth

How are you on "cryo"...? ? That is another "myth" propagated on shooters...! !

Well that depends on what the myth is.

Actually there are some sound metallurgical reasons for cryo treatment. When some steels are heated (austenitized) and quenched to form the hardened phase, martensite, they retain the high temperature phase (or atomic structure) called austenite. Austenite is softer than martensite, but moreover, it is not stable (this is known as metastability), and over a long period of time, will slowly degrade to other phases. In the course of slowly changing from the high temperature austenite phase into the more stable phases, the density and hence volume of the retained austenite changes. This leads to internal stresses which can create warpage.

The idea behind cryo treatment is to "shock" the retained austenite into rapid transformation into these other, stable phases. This precludes the slow transormation over a long period of time, and renders a more stable, uniformly hard product. When dimensions on finished barrels are mentioned in terms of 50 or 100 millionths of an inch, any slight warpage could easily distort same to more than the manufacturer's finish tolerances.

A similar principle applies to ductile and gray iron castings. These are allowed to "season" over a period of time before machining. Retained phases slowly transform over time and warpage occurs. The idea is to let this warpage subside before precision machining is accomplished.

Zircon

 

[4097]

Now that You Mentioned It..

I was the Manufacturing Engineer for the liquid oxygen and hydrogen lines on the shuttle for a time. But seriously, from the limited metalurgy that I have had the concept seems reasonable. I had two AR-15 barrels done but did not see any noticable improvement (they were not real accurate barrels to begin with). I guess if I was bound and determine to have a benchrest grade fluted barrel I might spring for the extra.

 

[4097]

Zircon is Correct. The dreaded "retained austenite"

 

[Zircon]

Re: How about Banite ???

I am somewhat of a Japanese sword fan, there is always the discussion on the transformation at the quenching time for the blade. An american makes a Banite Katana from L6 steele that he claims is indestructabel through ordinary means !! ( cutting mats and 10 speed bike frames) I can never get a real discussion on Banite and would like to know more.

Thanks
Dwight P

Dwight, it's Bainite. Named after Edgar C. Bain, who was director of research for U. S. Steel. Bainite is one of those other tranformation products I mentioned in the post, above. There are two forms of bainite, upper and lower, depending on the reaction temperature. Normally, when one quenches steels from the austenitic range, a very hard, somewhat brittle structure, martensite, (named after none other than Marten, and then there was Austin, etc., etc., you get the picture, just like discovering a mountain, you get to name the phase after yourself) is formed. In order to be useful, martensite has to be "tempered" or softened slightly.

Bainite is formed by quenching to a somewhat elevated temperature instead of to near room temperature like in the formation of martensite. The practical method for doing this is to heat the steel into the austenitic range (say 1450F, but it will vary considerably depending on the chemical composition of the steel) and then quenching it in a liquid salt bath at say, 500-600F. If the part is held in the salt bath long enough, the austenite will transform into bainite. Bainite is not so hard as martensite, but it is very, very tough.

So a sword transformed to bainite may not hold the best cutting edge, but it will be extremely tough. Rotary lawn mower blades are typically made by austempering (the process for forming bainite.) They are not all that hard (you can readily file an edge back onto them) but they are tough enough to withstand rock hits and not completely destroy the edge.

I'll stop now, as I'm certain I have a bunch of you rolling your eyes over.

Zirc

 

[5298]

CCG
Thanks to you and the rest:
All info gratefully accepted!
:t
Hence the use of clay to control heat during tempering, and the georgiuos blades produced.By the Masters.