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Brno Model 1 Faults

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OK. I have been touting the virtues of the guns.

Let's start a thread regarding the faults of the design or your experience with wear or parts failures.

This naturally will be highly opinionated. But, I think it will be good for all to put those cards on the table.


My opinions/observations based on examination of 19 different guns ranging from unfired to very well worn surplus trainers, and arsenal refurbs.) The surplus trainers cannot be a basis for judgement of factory quality control as they had been subject to armorer's repairs. However, they are a good basis for noting wear effects on critical components.

Design Faults

1. The action lacks sufficient gas venting. (Never had a problem with this, receiver so rugged think it unlikely to be a major issue barring unusual sequence of events. Such as firing with an obstructed bore.)

2. The stock is too short for large adult shooters. (They probably hit a happy medium here).

3. The fit and finish of the stocks and particularly the buttplates on some of guns that went as trainers is rather poor. (Some of these no doubt were post factory replacements so maybe not a pertinent observation).


Wear Defects noted:

1. Extractors either worn, or damaged (perhaps by abuse) 2 cases to the extent they needed replaced. Both had been trainers and obviously well used.

2. One case where the piece in the receiver bottom that incorporates the extractor had the tip worn down enough occasional failures to eject occured.
This again was a well worn surplus trainer and this could have been from abuse.

3. The buttplate plastic material appears to be prone to warpage (who knows what heat extremes these resulted from in the storage and importation process. I see a Steel connex container sitting in the sun on docks at say Jackonsville FL reaching internal temps of who knows what??)

That's all that comes to mind at present. There are only 3 that I did not or have not fired.
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Interesting observations.

I just picked up another #1 this week. It had signs of use, but it is in very good shape.

I was playing with the trigger adjustments, using a plastic snap cap and noticed that it was leaving the cap in the mag area upon extraction. I thought it may just be time for a new one as these do not last long, so I started using an empty shell, which yelded the same results. I inspected it a little further and the holder was'nt even crossing into the rim area, thus not even touching the brass.

I removed the extractor and holder and compared them to some CZ ones that I purchased to have some extras for my 452's. They were nearly identical, which is one thing I like about CZ's & Brno's. They have not changed some key components such as these and the mags which is a smart thing. If you find something that works, stick with it.

The difference in the holder that was preventing it from being of any use was a very small area under the hook of the holder that I had to file to mirror one of my new CZ holders which functioned in the rifle just fine. Once that was fixed it works well.

One thing that got me thinking, if these are the original extractor and holder, someone spent a lot of time dealing with picking fired cases from off the top of the mag, which leads me to believe that these were either added later and just not properly fitted or it came from the factory like this, but I have a hard time believing the later.

Back to your observations:

1. I was looking the receiver a couple of days ago and noticed that it didn't have the gas vent in it, just one in the top of the bolt. Maybe back then, they thought that it was sufficient for the lower pressures of the 22lr.

2. The stocks are a bit small. Being 6" 1" tall I still find them comfortable to shoulder. I guess my scope may be a little farter forward then a smaller framed individual.

3. I have not had much luck with original buttplates. Of the 3 that I have, two where broken. I get the third thinking, alright one that's intact!, upon taking it off I found that it was cracked or rather starting to tear under the screw where it had taken a hit on the bottom. Oh well, thank God for Denny. :)

One thing that I've noticed and I'm sure that I'm not the only one, is:

Where have all the front sight hoods gone? Did they just come off that easily or did most prior users of these rifles just disgard them?
 

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I only have two, but both came through our good friend Denny and are intact and as you would expect the extractors etc. work perfectly, and the butt plates are intact. I suspect that many of the No. 1's that have come in thru CAI have led hard working lives and perhaps have not been maintained and cared for as we would like. JEE, your rifles have found a good home and I know will be brought back to excellent function and enjoyed by you.

Gerald
 

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I have two as well . . .

. . . one purchased from George Tripes, a NIB condition rifle. The other, a CAI trainer, well used / slightly abused model. The only fault they have shown so far is their influence to ignore their .22lr brethren. :D



Seriously. :cool:
 

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Hi guys
Many of the "faults" you guys will encounter are very likely the product of "bin" refurbishment as well as fair wear and tear, Jee a couple of things you say tend to make me think that your problems are such ; in my sticky "The early ZKM 452.." I posted a couple of pic's that I will show again here, firstly a particularly good shot showing a brand new Model one bolt with guide and extractor, this shows clearly how the guide should look and hints at its purpose, that being just to hold the case against the extractor on the rearward cycle and then allow the case to flick out of its hold as the ejector is hit and the case flicks off to the right;



Now you may notice something else, you said you had a gas port, well I would say you have a model 2,4 or 5 bolt body! this next photo is of the three bolt bodies:



The left hand one shows a model 1 or 3 bolt head, the middle with a 2mm gas port is from a BRNO mod 2,4 or mod 5, and the RH is a CZ model 2/5 (3mm gas port). You may want to check the bolt handle as well here a model 1/3 with an 8mm wide lug and a model 2/4/5 with a 6mm lug



And of course you will also want to check that you have a model one firing pin (90 degree sear notch)

Faults that I have encountered are broken guides and extracters, but remember that these are more likely broken by dropping the loose bolt onto the concrete garage floor!
The other thing I have noticed and have had a thought about is that there may have been some chemical treatment on the stocks that when one drop of water entered between the stock and action/barrel it reacted and gave of a corrosive vapour ! this is only conjecture but I have seen some examples where it looks like only one raindrop ever got in there and yet it ate a big hole into the metal under the wood, the rest of the metal around it being pristine, I have not seen this with beech stocks to date.

The last fault is actually mine, I don't have enough of them!
Cheers, Paul
 

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I'm afraid it seems a bit unfair to me...

to comment on design flaws based upon examples of military training rifles. Who knows how many tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of rounds, of what quality ammo, have been cycled through these rifles? Who can tell (as some have pointed out) what sort of care, or lack thereof, these rifles have seen at the armorer's?

To me, the fact that the three that I own operated flawlessly with only a bit of cleanup and re-lubrication, attests to how fantastic the original design actually is. As someone pointed out in a recent thread, all of the changes that came later were directed at improving production time, not necessarily function. Though I do not agree with this opinion 100% (the two stage trigger is one significant improvement in function IMO) I do, for the most part, agree with the overall import of that opinion.

Re: the triggers, the single stage Mauser trigger is really the only aspect of the original design that I feel was lacking. It has so much creep that on some of my rifles it rendered them almost unusable for any sort of target shooting. I discovered on this forum however, that the triggers can often be improved with some judicious shimming, or replaced with the superior two stage unit, so that flaw can be easily remedied.
 

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35WCF:

Paul of the dozen CIA #1 rifles that I have cleaned up I had 3 of them that had the corrosive pitting you mentioned on the action right below the stockline.

I've wondered what caused this condition also, sounds like you figured it out.

Young
 

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JMHO...a bit more rambling.

Interesting how SHORT the list is...even then it seems not much of a list as much as passing thoughts more than true short comings. Maybe even more complimentary.

For me...so long as it has the adjustable style trigger, I wouldn't change a thing on the Brno Model#1's...seriously. As hard as I have tried nothing comes close for me and all the perceived flaws by some are some of the same things that I love about the #1's.

I have shot dozens of other sporters through the years and I've just never found anything I have liked better. I've tried...even for 3-4x the price. I always end up selling the others and moving on...back to my #1's. For me this is even true for #2's and CZ's. (The CZ's that I shoot are more related to variations in models that were never available on Brno's. i.e. 453's SST, Varmints, and calibers...HMR, WMR, HM2...and some nice wood. ;) )

As to the extra gas ports on later models?....in 10's of thousands of rounds on the prairies of Alberta, deserts of Idaho, Utah and Texas as well as Oregon & Washington...it has never been an issue for me even when dirty and fouled. Could it be some day? Sure. But while theoretically it could help and is a nice concept to add as far as precautionary and preemptive safety, I have never heard of it being an issue to anyone in their 60+ years of existence. I think for most sportsmen, it was a correction to a problem that most would never exist. That said, if that change was made on the #1 (i.e) I would welcome it but have never missed it. BUT...that is the only thing I would ever concede to allow changed. I personally like the #1's safety and trigger (adjustable) over the #5's. I also like the stocks butt shape over the later #5's. JMHO.

I have also heard that they're rated at a quarter million rounds plus...I've never seen one worn out that wasn't abused. (not saying they are not out there.) Even then, they still seem to just need a good cleaning oiling and a bit of love...then back to work. (Bluing and refinishing of the stock is optional.)

In the end, I'm just thrilled that so many have recently had the opportunity to try and come to love the #1's as I always have and to share the innovative, classic and timeless joy that they are. :t :t :t

More rambling.......
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I whole heartly concurr TOU. I too have been through alot of .22's and it appears that nothing can displace my favorite Model 1. Nor is it likely than anything ever will.

I have been hunting 46 of my 56 years, collecting trading guns for over 35.

I have been shooting that 48 deluxe since 1994. That was my first exposure to them. Then came the first imports at a trickle. Since that time I have let some others go - including an Anschutz 54 and a Win 52 sporter.

Have equiped neices, nephews, son-in-law,and the neighbor boy with them. Have them squirreled away all over the place, and I am still buying them.

Quality this good at this price cannot be a bad investment. They give me great pleasure even when I am not shooting or hunting with them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
BTW: My goal with this thread was to see if we could "smoke out" any real problems with the guns. Barring abuse or poor gunsmithing by a Czech Armorer on the well used and abused trainers - I ain't found one yet nor have I seen anything other than personal preference comparisons emerge here. Which is what I expected!
 

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I have only had one blow-up in countless 10s of thousands of rounds in 40 years. That was a Stinger in the 70s. It also went off when I closed the bolt on it. The resultant gas expulsion was directed down through the mag well and a little back through the bolt. I was out in the field at the time. It left me with ringing ears but had no effects on me facially. I can see why they added the extra gas ports later though, it just makes sense. I never fired a CC1 round through the rifle again.

I have never had a failure to eject or a bolt problem. If ejection is not as positive as usual it usually means the extractors need a clean of the build up of powder residue. Ditto bolt if it is getting a little stiff. I think the main reason why so many front sight covers are missing is that they disappear into old gun bags or people have simply taken them off to have cleaner lines aesthetically.

As a hunting 22 what more could you want? Accurate, reliable, classic lines that are a joy to look at, built like a brick outhouse, smooth bolt, great adjustable hunting trigger.

Did I say I like mine? :D I'm not biased but I also hope I can be objective as well.

I have friends who have had Winchesters, Marlins, Ermas and other assortments over the years. Guess what they all have as hunting 22s now?

Bing!! Thats right....every single one of them has a Brno or an early Brno/CZ hybrid.
 

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Hi Grafeoz
Which would be why it is getting so hard to find a nice one these days, they are certainly getting fully priced over there now. Just a word to you first time gun buyers, the Model 1's get talked up by the older shooters and they deserve to be, also the early Model 2 and model 5's, and I am meaning 1950's proofed or up to 1966-67, which is when they went to a 12 groove barrel (means 1965-6-7 proof with 6 groove = good, 12 groove not so good). This is only my personal opinion but based on bench testing not just hearsay, once we get past 1973 then it is seriously downhill with the metal finish (the move from wide to narrow receiver grooves). I notice that the prices of the 70's and early 80's model 2's on usedguns.com.au are getting right up there. In my opinion these are not nearly as good as there predecessors and the young shooter will be a lot better off putting his/her money into a brand new CZ. Cheers, Paul
 

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I think you are absolutely right Paul. Thats the reason why they are becoming so scarce and expensive to buy. People are hanging on to them. God knows how many got cut up and crushed in the gun buy back when they were handed in by the families who inherited them and didn't know what they had :sad:
 

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I think you are absolutely right Paul. Thats the reason why they are becoming so scarce and expensive to buy. People are hanging on to them. God knows how many got cut up and crushed in the gun buy back when they were handed in by the families who inherited them and didn't know what they had :sad:
I would love to see a thread on the government gun buy-back in Australia... probably some good lessons there.... maybe I should search for such a thread before I say that though. :eek:
 

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Winston Churchill......

There is probably plenty on the net. Long story short.

1. All semi autos banned.

2. Weapons registration and storage strictly controlled. Storage inspections by police at any time theoretically possible.

3. Strict laws (not guidelines) regarding the ability to own a weapon. This means being of good character, being a member of a firearms association with minimum range time limits set per year. Usually 6. Under this arrangement the weapons can only be used on the range.

4. Firearm safety courses must be attended and knowledge and proficiency attained.

5. Hunter owners must have written permission for the use of the firearms on their property stating the game to hunted. With this law you will not get a licence to own a 308 on a 100 acre property. ( I have a property owner friend who has a 25000 acre property to sign me off....covers me for all calibres).
6. Cooling off period before obtaining a new weapon even when you have a licence...usually 28 days.

These are just the basics.

Millions of firearms were turned over to the Government as the owners either didn't want the weapons or didn't fit the criteria and weren't prepared to go to jail for illegal ownership. They were compensated financially. It cost the Australian taxpayer over $400 million dollars. Our population then was 20 million. It made firearms owners pariahs of the community and was very divisive socially and fueled greatly by the media and anti gun nutters who thought they were in paradise.

It didn't do anything to stop illegal gun ownership by criminals....as if they were going to give theirs up anyway.

Sorry to hijack the thread. The ownership laws had no effect on me but did effect many of my friends. Family heirlooms of considerable sentimental value cut up and crushed and used for scrap...stocks and all. Depressing.
 

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Thanks GrafeOz for the summary. I agree, very depressing. Hope I never see anything like that here.

Luckily our US Supreme Court recently (and finally) affirmed the personal right to own firearms here. That puts gun owners in a better position than we were only a month ago. But registration and 'reasonable restrictions' loom as some local governments will try to dial things back. Even after the Heller and Miller cases taken together now provide much clearer guidance, DC remains in flagrant violation of Supreme Court rulings. The US attorneys general should have local DC officials in the clink by now awaiting trial for contempt of court.

Mauser22, sorry for the hijack of your thread.

Edit: Back on thread:

While I love these rifles, a couple things could be better IMO:
1) The high lift angle of the bolt can interfere with the ocular bell if you want to mount your scope low.
2) The safety can be stiff. It doesn't bother be a bit that the safety is backwards from most rifles, but the detent seems like overkill.
JMO...
 

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The safety on mine is still stiff after 58 years!!!!! There is a technique to taking it off quietly that works for me so as not to spook game. Just use thumb and fore finger and ease the safety slowly. There have been threads dealing with stoning the cam surfaces but I am used to it now.
 
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