[1266]

Bad Magazine Design! (what is this?)

When I first started shooting my 10/22 carbine. It would jam once in about every 3rd clip of ammo. I went home and cycled shot cases by hand, slowly, watching to see what they did when they ejected when the bolt was pulled back.

To my surprise, the empty shot cases would sometimes flip out of the extractor's grip when it hit this lip on the magazine. It would do a doe-see-doe and sit in the action instead of ejecting.

My buddie's magazine does not have that little lip, so I ground mine off flush with the remaining area. Wa-la, no more jams from doe-see-doe shot cartridges! I have not had any other problems with feeding or ejecting ammo.

(picture)
http://home.gallatinriver.net/~willemspd/Page1.htm

The actual ejector down in the trigger assembly does a great job of ejecting the shot cartridge. Why does Ruger have that stupid doe-see-doe lip on thier magazine?

Wingnut

 

[050]

This thread should prove to be fun.

Ron

 

[106]

Dumb Owners

Wingnut,

You just 'ground off' the primary ejector, "that stupid doe-see-doe lip" on the magazine.......! !

The "ejector" [B8] comes into play only when the rifle is being unloaded or fired without the BX-1 magazine in place.....! !

Didn't it occur to you that after selling over 3 million 10/22's, and probably 5 million BX-1 magazines, "Ruger" 'might' know what they are doing......! !

 

[899]

Wingnut,

Yes! You did, just grind off your rifle's "Primary" ejector. There are other reasons for "jamming" or 'stove-pipes'. (Extractor, needs tune-up or replacement.)

BigMike,

uhhhh....

Your #2 & 3 statement caught my attention.

#2 -- I believe the "secondary" ejector, on the trigger group, was intended more for "clearing" a loaded firearm, since the 1st step is to remove the magazine, thus "losing" the use of the "Primary".

#3 -- I gotta shake my head, in amazement, over what Ruger "came up with" to fix that 10/22 Magnum problem, when it was first introduced.

 

[106]

Good Point

ski,

#2 -- I believe the "secondary" ejector, on the trigger group, was intended more for "clearing" a loaded firearm, since the 1st step is to remove the magazine, thus "losing" the use of the "Primary".

Good point.....! ! :t

I guess, usually being the first one finished firing, when I hear CLEAR, I am already empty and clear......! !

Some things don't improve with age: sight picture is one of those things.......! !

 

[050]

Just thought that I'd add the point that while cycling an action by hand can give one a hint of the working action and how it proceeds to go about it's business, the actual reaction of a spent shell being ejected from the chamber is violent and completely different than what happens at "Let me look" speeds.

What you forgot was that when you do it by hand, you are pulling the cartridge out with the bolt as you pull it back, whereas when the gun fires, the force of the explosion is pushing the bolt back with the cartridge. A completely opposite scenario.

You also made the comment that when you "first started shooting your 10/22" etc, etc, etc. Occasional malfunctions in a new 10/22 are totally normal in the break in period. That's why it is called break in.

Why does Ruger have that stupid doe-see-doe lip on thier magazine?

It is rumored that Bill Ruger was a big fan of Square Dancing while he was alive. Obviously, he had to call it something....

Ron

 

[1266]

Well, the timing of the primary ejector on the magazine is too early in the cycle of the bolt. The spent cartridge is being ejected before there is a large enough opening for it to clear.

Doe-see-doe primary magazine ejector is garage!

Doe-see-doe primary magazine ejector is history!

I'm gringin' all dem Doe-see-doe magazine ejectors off of my magazines!
I have a better idea! Its works for me!

My (B8) ejector is a real ejector now!

My (B8) ejector does it's real job now and does it with 100% reliability!

thanks guys,
Wingnut

 

[1266]

Antlurz, BigMike

Antlurz,
I understand what you are saying about functioning by hand or functioning by explosive speed, but what other choice do we have?

I tune the cartridge clips on my handguns and rifles at "let me look" speeds. I know 'reliable feeding' and 'reliable ejection' are two different things, but the explosive feeding does not change my "let me look" feeding tune up on my clips.

My "let me look" speed extraction study still tells me a whole lot more of what is going on than guessing what ten other things might be wrong.

BigMike,
Ya, its great that 'Ruger' knows what they are doing. So why do all these guys by all this after market junk to make them 10/22's shoot?
Ya, its great that 'Ruger' has sold 3 million 10/22's, and probably 5 million BX-1 magazines, but numbers do not impress me. I have heard more than once of people selling thier junk 10/22 for functioning qualities.

"Many people go through life doing things the hard way! I am not going to follow the 3 million of them, or even 5 million of them."

thanks,
Wingnut

 

[Fumbler]

So why do all these guys by all this after market junk to make them 10/22's shoot?

Because it's fun

The gun would shoot fine for the price range it's in as new.

 

[2945]

my brand new mags did that stuff aswell, i just tuned em and shot the rifle more and wow, not a single prob last time! I dont know (or really care ) if ya messed up the mags, novel idea. I wonder why your friends 10/22 mags didnt have the extractor, did he grind it off 2?

 

[1266]

Jaeger,
My friend's rifle was a new 'T' 10/22. I think he had picked up an extra magazine somewhere for it. One had the ejector lip and the other didn't. I think that's the way it was.

Anyway, I got home and looked at my after market mag and seen it had that lip. I did not know what to think, so I started experimenting. I shot my 10/22 with my modified mag all last summer.
I must have put 1500 rounds through it. Worked great!

Wingnut

 

[cjsdad]

Was the mag without the doe-see-doe(I like that, shows inventiveness) flat on the bottom instead of rounded? If I remember corectly the mag for the 77-22 will fit in the 10-22 and it is slightly different. Could it be?

 

[georgiaboy]

Wingnut said:

To my surprise, the empty shot cases would sometimes flip out of the extractor's grip when it hit this lip on the magazine.

But..... isn't that what it's supposed to do when it hits the "ejector"......

Sounds like what you had was an extractor problem, which is common, esp. with sub- and std- velocity ammo.... and not an ejector problem, which is not common....

An inexpensive VQ "Exact Edge" extractor would have permanantly fixed that problem, instead of having to alter every new mag you might buy in the future.....

But if you're happy with it, and it works for you..... grind away

Now don't get me wrong, this is NOT a flame, just an opinion.....

 

[899]

Wingnut,

The comment that had me scratching my head, was the one about the bolt NOT opening up far enough, BEFORE the ejection port was big enough for the case to eject.

Sorry! That's not how I see it.

The spent case has plenty of clearance, when it hits that "lip" on the magazine.

In fact, a loaded round has enough room, if ya use the magazines "ejector".

I, too, have done alot of "slo-mo" cycling, to see how things work.

We had a very interesting "discussion", concerning the "extractor's" role in "ejection" and I did some "experimenting".

BigMike,

I know what ya mean!

We've been giving the same "info" for so many years and trying not to repeat ourselves "word-for-word", it's easy to forget some "details".

I do that, too. That's why I like to have "you guys" as my "back-up".

 

[1266]

ski,
Well, it looks like there is enough room for a shot case to extract out of the action, but that little doe-see-doe lip ain't much of an area to satisfy me. I would say that about every other 22 rifle in the world ejects towards the rear posistion of the bolt cycle.

Gee, maybe I should not have checked out my 'look and see' extraction study on an empty magazine!

Ejecting a spent cartridge in the middle of the cycle makes no sense to me. Relying on a plastic magazine to give me a flawless and reliable function does not turn my crank niether. At least the [B8] ejector is in one place, it is steel, and it is held rigid in an aluminum action and held with a steel pin!

I am just saying what I did and it works for me. It works great for me, not for Ruger I guess.

thanks,
Wingnut

 

[050]

Now if you want to prove your theory, why don't you shoot a few different subsonics through it and see what happens when the bolt doesn't do a 100% recoil because it ain't moving fast enough.

Might work. Then again, it might show why they chose to eject it earlier in the cycle.

Ron

 

[Vibe]

LOL. Ever looked at a Makarov pistol? Those things HAVE to eject early...the port isn't hardly larhe enough to get a loaded round to fit into it,. Nothing worong at all with starting the ejection process early, particularly since the case being ejected is KNOWN to be fired, and thus shorter. None of my 10/22s have ever had ejection problems that could not be traced back to less than positive extractor grip.

 

[cjsdad]

It's not a semi-auto but my Remington 514 has the ejector in the bolt face and ejects as soon as the case clears the chamber. The only problems it seems to have is a tired extractor and spring so it doesn't always pull the shell out.

For my money the factory Ruger setup works too good to mess with. I had some cycling problems with a 10-22 and found that the extractor spring needed to be shimmed up to tighten the tension. After that I have had exactly zero failures to extract. That is still with the Ruger extractor. Lots of people swear by the VQ or other aftermarket extractor but I would bet that they come with a tighter spring as well.

Spend a little more time looking at things and see if maybe a tuned extractor might help you in your efforts to find the 100% reliability you want. It doesn't have to be an aftermarket one, just a better tuned one. It might make the magazine mods unnecessary.

By the way, a common framing nail is the perfect diameter for a shim to put under the extractor spring. It was the only thing I could find that was an exact fit in the spring recess of the bolt. Just cut to length and slip it in. You might be supprised.

I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong Wingnut but it seems to me that there are some less agressive ways to fix your problem.

 

[Dakotan]

This whole NIGHTMARE

was why I put together my "Reliability Package" consisting of a Volquartsen Exact Edge Extraxtor and (of course ) one of my buffers.
The VQ Extractor makes [email protected] sure that case gets yanked out of the chamber, and (as CD proved with his strobe photography setup) the Buffer increases the delay when the bolt is at the rear terminus. That gives the case more time to clear the ejection port.
NOW..... Even though I HATE the phrase "It ain't bragging if it's true", that's the only one that applies. I've sold more of these packages than I can remember, and NO ONE has ever contacted me because it didn't work. LOTS of people have sent happy e-mails after using this set-up.

As GOD is my witness I am NOT posting this to sell more stuff.

I didn't even WANT to sell anything I didn't make, but the VQ extractor / WK Buffer combo worked every time, so I HAD to put this package together to solve an all TOO common problem.
It simply worked. The extractor plays more of a part than it's given credit for.
Guys, I've always considered myself a member first and a sponsor second, and just had to weigh in on this one.
Sorry if I'm out of line here.

Take Care - Dakotan

 

[plchacker]

Dakotan,

You're not out of line at all. You are right. Your buffer and the VQ extractor should be on everyone's short list of parts for a new project 10/22. The original's work fine, as long as you keep the stock bbl. The tighter chamber of aftermarket bbls, create a need. You have found the right combo, and it works!

CJsdad,

There is a stronger spring with the VQ.